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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/29/18 2:55 A

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I just finished watching a couple presentations by your preferred gurus. Dr. Volek said keto carb grams are usually under 40g, but some people can consume 60g. Dr Phinney said carb calories should usually be less than 10% of the energy your body burns. So if the TDEE calculator is correct, my 2791 maintenance calories would mean I could consume 279 calories from carbs (which would be well over 70 grams when you include the fiber grams).

Dr. Phinney also said that protein should account for less than 20% of your body's energy requirements. For me, that would be less than 140g of protein…and I happen to have my daily protein goal set to 95-130.

These carb and protein parameters require that at least 70% of your calories come from fat IF YOU EAT AT LEAST AS MANY CALORIES AS YOUR BODY BURNS. If you eat fewer calories, you can reduce the fat percentage while still meeting Dr. Phinney's carb and protein criteria. Dr. Phinney also said they tell patients to focus on limiting carbs to ensure they are in ketosis, and not worry about their fat macro %.

Dr. Phinney also debunked the concept of "keto flu", saying it is generally just symptoms of sodium deficiency…not "keto adaptation." I drink some water with added salt, cream of tartar, and vinegar each morning to reduce this risk.

I haven't broken my fast yet. emoticon

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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/28/18 11:33 P

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"What all reputable keto gurus agree on...is that a ketogenic diet is high fat (75% or more), low-carb (under 30 grams total carbs)..."

Then my gurus must not be reputable! The diet gurus that I discovered on youtube were primarily KenDBerryMD, Dr. Eric Berg, 2 Fit Docs, Dr Jason Fung, and Dr. James DiNicolantonio (who I recommend listening to on the subjects of salt and good/bad fats). More than one of them expressed the idea that the majority of calories should come from fat in a keto diet, but not necessarily 75%. It is possible your gurus are better than my gurus! A couple of my gurus have a more relaxed view toward carbs, allowing up to 30 grams of NET carbs (for natural whole foods) or up to 50 grams of total carbs if it does not knock you out of ketosis (I don't go that high).

My protein goal falls within your keto recommendation range. I do not think I need to further lower my protein or carbs to stay in ketosis.

"You can have dark purple ketostix and still not be in nutritional ketosis (over .5 blood ketones)."

The gurus I've watched have not talked about a specific blood ketone level to be in ketosis, and have implied that you are "in ketosis" if the pee stick turns purple. I suspect you have to eat lots of fat in a short period of time and/or have a medical issue to turn a ketostix dark purple without being in dietary ketosis. My reduced cravings, reduced inflammation, improved energy (usually), and less than minty breath confirm to me what my pee sticks are saying.

"There has to be more fat available for fuel than anything else (carbs or protein) for the body to choose to use it as fuel..."

Obese people always have way more fat (potentially) available for fuel than anything else! A key question is how long does it take for a keto-adapted person to become unadapted? If a keto-adapted person eats a bagel, will she no longer be able to burn body fat for weeks or months? [I suspect the answer is hours, not months.]

"There are literally millions of people...attest to the truth of this."

Millions of people attest to all sorts of falsehoods. People have a remarkable capcity to perceive and interpret evidence in ways that confirm their beliefs, whether or not those beliefs are true. If they didn't, astrology columns and late night TV ads for psychic services would not exist. [Sorry for offending any believers of such stuff.]

My goals are primarily to lose weight, though I'm also trying to improve my health with better food choices (e.g., replacing refined unnatural fats and carbs with natural foods).

I remain surprised that Dr. Fung is so strict about banning pure stevia and all artificial flavors/sweeteners during fasts while giving the okay to cream, bone broth, and chia seeds. Does the fraction of a gram of pure stevia needed to sweeten my coffee really spike insulin more than much larger quantities of cream, bone broth, and chia seeds? [I don't think so.] Nevertheless, I grudgingly skipped the stevia in my coffee today, and I'm planning to extend my first fast to around 34 hours! emoticon

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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 11,651
11/28/18 7:48 P

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"Just as there are many myths in the conventional diet world, I suspect the keto community may also have a few." I don't know how many myths there are (there are a boatload of people who don't know what they're doing and will promote their version of ketosis to promote their own brand), but there is more than one tried and true approach which cause controversy between camps. What all reputable keto gurus agree on (Phinney and Volek, Andreas Einfeldt, Tim Noakes, Dr. Peter Attia, Dr. Eric Westman, Maria Emmerich, Martina Slajerova, Leanne Vogel, Stephanie Keto Person, Ketovangelist, etc.) is that a ketogenic diet is high fat (75% or more), low-carb (under 30 grams total carbs), and moderate protein (which varies depending on your own level of metabolic dysfunction).


Urine strips only indicate that you're producing ketones, and only measure the ketones you're wasting (acetoacetate)... the more colour, the more ketones are being peed out... no guarantee that you're actually burning any for fuel. Also, the conversion of dietary fat is largely responsible for the ketones measured by ketostix, not the conversion of body fat for fuel. The gold standard for knowing what level of nutritional ketosis you're in is to measure blood ketones (beta-hydroxybutyric acid)... or you can measure breath ketones for a reasonable approximation for the level of ketones you're actually burning (acetone).


The keto recommendation for protein is .45 - .8 grams for every pound of lean mass to reach optimal ketosis (1.5 – 3 mmol/L), BUT for some people (depending on your level of metabolic dysfunction), that could still be too much due to gluconeogenesis. Phinney and Volek address this, as does Dr. Fung. Not as much protein is required on ketosis as with other nutritional approaches due to its muscle-sparing characteristics.


"I have yet to come across any scientific evidence to support the ideas that eating more calories or more fat while in a state of dietary ketosis (e.g., to get into "deeper" ketosis) facilitates weight loss." You won't find any. There is no correlation between more fat, colour of ketostix, and level of weight loss. You can have dark purple ketostix and still not be in nutritional ketosis (over .5 blood ketones). You can be in deep ketosis and still not lose weight. Insulin does determine whether or not you will lose weight no matter how you fuel your body. Having said that, higher levels of dietary fat (75% or more), until you are keto-adapted (your body is more inclined to burn fat effectively and efficiently for fuel than anything else), is what drives the development of the metabolic processes necessary for the body to use fat for fuel on a consistent basis. There has to be more fat available for fuel than anything else (carbs or protein) for the body to choose to use it as fuel and adapt to doing so. You can produce ketones on a low-carb higher fat diet, and you can consistently lose weight, but you won't necessarily be in ketosis or keto-adapt. As far as higher calories are concerned, it's a physiological fact that when calories are higher metabolic rate will increase.... Again, WITHIN REASON... but with keto, calories can be higher than the norm, which additionally raises metabolism, simply because with low-carb you're not raising insulin levels, and not engaging fat storage mechanisms. This is why with keto excess body fat can seem to 'melt' off... insulin levels are kept low, while metabolism is kept running high.

If you haven't yet read Phinney and Volek (or watch them on youtube... or Tim Noakes), I would really encourage you to do so. They are the go-to keto science guys, and have complied the sort of scientific data you're looking for. Keeping track of, and remembering scientific citations, isn't my forte. Application is my strength.


What research have you read that indicates that all keto-adapted people never experience even mild hunger? None. :) You've already identified the difference. Once insulin levels have stabilized, hunger becomes a different concept, as you've already discovered. When I said you shouldn't be hungry, all I meant was that hunger shouldn't be a driving issue. If it is, something needs to be tweaked. Incidentally, occasions of 'hunger' (stomach growling, etc.) persist even throughout extended fasts. The first thing to learn when doing an extended fast is that feeling hungry doesn't mean you have to eat. Dr. Fung explains this very well... essentially the body is a creature of habit, and will continue to remind you hopefully that you may be forgetting something, LOL.


What research indicates that people in dietary ketosis may take months to become "keto-adapted"? There isn't any research that I've been able to find, but there is a significant wealth of experience being shared. There are literally millions of people - keto coaches, people living a keto lifestyle for years, people who struggle to get into and stay in ketosis - who will attest to the truth of this. It all depends on your own metabolic quirks. Getting into and staying in ketosis and related weight loss was a very difficult process for me despite doing everything "right" (so I've really had to dig for answers as why that may be), and even after three years I am just now finally seeing the most significant signs of solid keto-adaptation. If a metabolism is significantly broken, it will take time to heal before it can truly keto-adapt (until your blood glucose levels stay in normal range, you won't keto adapt). And MAY is the key word... how quickly you do or do not keto adapt depends on the state of your metabolism, and how dedicated to you are to following keto guidelines. If your metabolism isn't particularly deranged, you will adapt more quickly than someone who has a lot healing to do. Some people will begin to adapt in a s little as a few weeks.

How you approach any of this really does depends what your goals are: Weight loss? Optimal ketosis? Healing? My goal was healing first, and then weight loss with maximum muscle retention, so my approach and perspective are biased in light of these goals.


"I was surprised to discover that Dr. Fung permits consumption of bone broth and chia seeds during fasts." Dr. Fung openly states that taking in any calories breaks the fast and disrupts autophagy, though he also figures whatever will keep someone in as near to a fasted state longer is a useful tool (the broth is suggested for the sodium, and chia seeds are a low-calorie appetite suppression crutch). Primarily, he strongly encourages water-only fasting ("All calorie-containing foods and beverages are withheld during fasting.") over using any crutches to get through, but he also knows human nature, and is pragmatic in light of it. Adopting a habit of fasting actually takes practice, and the more you do it, the easier it becomes to truly fast. Fat will definitely disrupt your fasted state (most calorie dense food possible), in that you are no longer experiencing the benefits of of being truly fasted, but you would still be positively impacting your metabolism if a bit of fat helps you move immediately back into fasting. The sweet spot is 18 hours fully fasted and beyond, at which point autophagy really kicks in. That's when "the magic" happens. I wish you luck!

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P.S. Dr. Fung's definitive word on fasting:






Edited by: _RAMONA at: 11/28/2018 (21:53)

Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/28/18 5:48 P

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I was not in ketosis before I started restricting calories, nor was I trying to follow a ketogenic diet. I started doing low carb, and then I further restricted my carbs and increased my fat intake to enter ketosis. (My urine strips still turn purple or at least pink.) I did not try to restrict my calories when I first began eating keto macros though.

I am under the impression that muscle loss is not the only mechanism responsible for down-regulation of metabolism. When I have lost weight rapidly on very low calorie diets, I began feeling cold and tired much of the time. I think my body was lowering my energy level and body temperature in an attempt to minimize the need to cannibalize my muscles and organs for energy. [At the time, I told myself that I was cold because I had less blubber!]

Based on recommendations that I've read about optimal (as opposed to minimal) protein consumption for health and muscle retention, my daily protein goal is at least 95 grams (which would be about 25.3% of 1500 calories) based on my goal weight.

Just as there are many myths in the conventional diet world, I suspect the keto community may also have a few. I have yet to come across any scientific evidence to support the ideas that eating more calories or more fat while in a state of dietary ketosis (e.g., to get into "deeper" ketosis) facilitates weight loss. Where is the evidence that a dark purple urine strip is better for weight loss than a lighter shade of purple? Until I see convincing scientific evidence to the contrary, I will continue to believe that both insulin control AND calorie restriction promote weight loss.

The occasional waves of mild hunger that I now experience is a huge change from the nearly constant drive to stuff my face that I am used to. What research have you read that indicates that all keto-adapted people never experience even mild hunger? What research indicates that people in dietary ketosis may take months to become "keto-adapted"?

Your fasting is inspiring me. I think I won't eat today. :) I'll still have my coffee with coconut oil though. BTW, I was surprised to discover that Dr. Fung permits consumption of bone broth and chia seeds during fasts (both of which have significant protein content). I will try sticking to just a small amount of pure fat.

If youtube links are allowed to be posted here, then you must be correct about why my post was censored! It was related to science that challenged conventional diet dogma (I forget exactly what now). I received a warning against posting spam even though no products were promoted in the video.

Thanks again!


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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 11,651
11/28/18 10:39 A

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You're welcome, Mike!

Your macros and your calorie split look pretty good, actually, just lower than would be typical with a ketogenic approach... it really depends on your goals, and what your body is telling you. Questions to ask yourself:

Were you definitely in ketosis before you started restricting calories?
Ensures you avoid muscle wasting... this is why metabolism down-regulates with calorie restriction, not "starvation mode." Less muscle, less metabolic burn. If you weren't/aren't in ketosis, your protein numbers may be a bit low for a man. Generally with keto, your protein should be around 50 grams per day minimum. Your macro ratio would ideally be a ratio of 3:1 fat/protein/carbs combined... so your 75/25 (20+5) looks good, but your 60/40 a bit out, though not too bad if you're cycling. With fasting you can get away with less protein because autophagy will supply the protein deficit (Dr. Fung). For keto, your fat percentages are a bit low. Staying consistently above 75% would be better, overall.

Phinney and Volek is also a good read:




Are you at all hungry?
If so, you may actually not be eating enough, and that won't serve you well metabolically in the long run. If you're solidly in ketosis/keto-adapted, you shouldn't be hungry. Adapting (seamlessly using body fat for fuel) can take months for some people and restricting calories in the meantime will have a negative metabolic impact (which is likely what happened in the study you mentioned earlier in the thread). Fasting facilitates adaptation in ways that calorie restriction won't. Also, keeping your fat percentage consistently over 75% would help here... it's like building a metabolic fire... you keep the dietary fuel high until the 'fire' is burning strongly on its own and then you need to feed it less to maintain the intensity level. How quickly, effectively and efficiently you keto-adapt depends on so many individualized factors.



So I'm curious... what are your goals, and why are you concerned about calories? Typically with keto, as long as your macros are properly dialed in, you don't need to worry about calories at all, and in many respects, the higher (within reason) the better.



As for extended fasting, the key is making sure that you're solidly in ketosis before you start, and that you've transitioned into adaptation. After that, it's largely a mental game, LOL. No matter how many times I've fasted more than a day, days two and three are still trying, and the activity of eating and sharing a meal with others is a powerful draw. I've learned a lot about myself that has nothing directly to do with losing weight through fasting that has benefited me in all areas of my life. Fasting for extended periods truly strengthens you body, mind and soul... and it's largely the physical healing (and visible changes) that keep me going... everyone in my life continues to wonder why I look younger, LOL. You would be amazed at the degree of physical damage that can be erased with fasting. Also, I suffered a brain injury years ago that left some residual deficits, for which I'm now experiencing healing. HUGE motivator.



...and I wanted to mention about your post that was removed: for whatever reason, likely your post offended someone and they reported it to SparkPeople, who then removed it because it ran counter to conventional weight loss or medical dogma. SparkPeople doesn't directly monitor threads for content. This happens most typically on the public forums, not so much on the team threads, where you're "preaching to the choir." If you haven't noticed, SparkPeople only promotes conventional approaches to health and weight loss, and anything outside of that will cause conflict. Youtube shares are fine as long as they support conventional thinking. Talking about ketosis and how the medical profession and dietitians don't support it on the public threads will most certainly get you in trouble, LOL. Which youtube video did you share?



Edited by: _RAMONA at: 11/28/2018 (10:51)

Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/28/18 4:02 A

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Thanks for the info and reference Ramona! I'm familiar with some of Dr. Fung's work on fasting versus feasting, but have not yet learned his views on how ketosis (or obesity) may affect the body's response to average calorie intake. I will read that book!

Your description of my "calorie cycling" is a bit incorrect. I am keeping my protein and carbs relatively stable, and mostly varying my fat intake. [My net carbs do vary by as much as you describe, but a 20g carb difference is only 80 calories. My fat intake is mostly responsible for my daily calories fluctuating between 1500 and 2400.] My macro percentages range from about 60/30/10 (fat/protein/carbs) on low calorie days to 75/20/5 on high calorie days. I'm open to the possibility that it would be better for me to eat more fat and less protein on low calorie days (I've seen lots of conflicting info about recommended protein consumption).

At first, cheese accounted for much of my fat/calorie variance, but I've transitioned to walnuts and coconut oil fat bombs in an attempt to be healthier! I am not planning my high and low calorie days in advance, but I do plan each meal to target my daily macro goals (e.g., if I decide to skip lunch on a particular day, my dinner meal will be higher in protein to compensate).

BTW, I'm impressed by anyone who can fast for weeks at a time! Doing a prolonged fast (i.e., days) is a challenge I'll eventually take on.


Edited by: MJSYKES at: 11/28/2018 (08:32)
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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 11,651
11/28/18 12:37 A

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Hi, Mike. I've been following this conversation a bit, and it seems to me that a lot of the answers you're looking for are found in this book... Dr. Jason Fung is not your typical doctor, and is not very popular among his peers, LOL:



It's really hard to find research that targets the specific metabolic concerns of ketosis specifically related to obesity, but Dr. Fung is about the best I've found.

The real dividing line is between feasting and fasting. If you're feasting, keeping calories too low over an extended period of time might down-regulate your metabolism a bit, but it will take a fairly long time (even longer eating ketogenically). The bigger problem is that with calorie restriction certain metabolic processes are disrupted, which does make weight loss more difficult. Calorie restriction for any reason is likely your least effective strategy.

What you seem to be describing in your initial posts is calorie cycling (keeping fat and protein relatively stable, but varying carb levels), which does not restrict overall calories but has you eating within a formulaic range, and is an effective weight loss device in its own right. It can definitely be more effective than sticking to a set number of daily calories (especially if they are too low), and it can also up-regulate metabolism. Combining keto and calorie cycling is really effective (cycle your carbs between 10-30 grams of carbs per day). This thread is no longer active, but it has a lot of excellent information that would also perhaps address many of the things you're wondering about:

GREAT Tips, Links & Info
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/T
eam_messa
geboard_thread.asp?board=0x10
128x5
799618


Fasting is a different animal in that all metabolic processes are up-regulated: metabolism actually increases, growth hormone increases (so your muscle is spared - you can actually build muscle by fasting... body builders have always known this), hormonal processes re-set, and autophagy kicks in. Fasting isn't a weight loss device as much as it's a healing strategy... it heals the underlying causes of obesity and resets your weight set point. Fasting and keto can be more effective than keto or fasting alone... a specialized form of calorie cycling.

How fasting affects your physiology and hormones
www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-af
fects-phy
siology-hormones


A Scottish man by the name of Angus Barbieri fasted for 382 consecutive days and lost 276 lbs. While that's pretty remarkable, the most remarkable thing is that he kept all but 16 lbs. of that off without any special considerations for what he ate (so no damage to his metabolism, in fact, it obviously improved). His experience supports all that Dr. Fung teaches his patients. It is possible to heal and normalize metabolism. Considering all of the people who manage to lose hundreds of pounds only to regain it all and then some, this is something worth contemplating.


The tale of Angus Barbieri who fasted for more than a year
www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp
/tale-ang
us-barbieri-fasted-year-lost-
21-st
one/


This is why I fast. I don't lose weight fasting, but my metabolism continues to improve. My longest water-only fast has been 30 days, and I have experienced amazing healing in many different ways that make losing weight so much easier. And that is why I eat ketogenically... weight loss, no skin issues (even with 100 lbs, eliminated), and optimal muscle retention... and I don't need to worry about what my metabolism is/isn't doing.



Edited by: _RAMONA at: 11/28/2018 (09:52)

Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/27/18 7:28 P

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Hi Holly,

If you come across research related to how calorie intake affects resting metabolism in obese people who are in ketosis, I'd be very interested.

BTW, congrats on your success!

-Mike

Edited by: MJSYKES at: 11/27/2018 (19:40)
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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/27/18 7:18 P

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Hey James,

I am not yet planning to do extended fasts, but I may try in the future (probably when I have fewer life issues to deal with). I have been eating fewer than 1800 calories on some days, and more than 2100 calories on other days. When I lost hundreds of pounds on low fat low calorie diets, I carefully planned 6-8 tiny "meals" each day, weighing and recording every gram; I needed this extreme structure and discipline to control my eating. Of course, I was also spiking my insulin 6-8 times per day and slowing my metabolism. Now that my body is sending me more reasonable signals about how much food I need (for the first time in my life), I'm trying to learn to listen.

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NIGHTSKYSTAR's Photo NIGHTSKYSTAR SparkPoints: (575,309)
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11/27/18 9:42 A

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i'm very lucky to have a GP AND a top ranked cardiologist that totally support keto, even calling me when new research comes to light to change things up (which i always pass on here)
I live out in the sticks..very rural area. my GP lives here, the cardiologist travels here weekly from a larger teaching hospital.
both fully agree with higher cals. both fully support and agree with my not fasting...and are on the fence about whether its good or not.
and both, with my permission, use my experience with keto to encourage other patients.
I'm very, very lucky to have not encountered any of the docs mentioned here that are not supportive or refuse to do their research on keto.

Holly
Northern NY
EDT


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-JAMES-'s Photo -JAMES- Posts: 12,328
11/27/18 9:36 A

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MJSYKES,
are going to be fasting for extended periods, and eating under 1800 calories a day?

James
Alberta, Canada


All time highest weight : 217 pounds

Starting weight : 195.0 pounds (June 7, 2012)
Final weight : 168.2 pounds (July 23, 2013)


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/26/18 11:04 P

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The majority of doctors and dietitians do not view our ketogenic diet favorably, because they only know what they were taught. Few medical and nutritional practitioners think like scientists; adherence to their fields' current dogma protects them from legal liability (regardless of the consequences for patients).

Even more unfortunately, many scientists are corrupted by money and social/political considerations. For example, the drug companies that hugely profit from statin drugs pay scientists to produce misleading and flawed research linking cholesterol to cardiovascular disease risk. Also, the government agency that pays big agriculture corporations to harm the environment by monocropping grains and soybeans is the same one that came out with the low fat high carb dietary recommendations. This has led to big profits for food companies that can produce cheap unhealthy (and often addictive) food...as well as for medical and pharmaceutical companies due to the burgeoning rates of obesity, diabetes, and other diseases.


Edited by: MJSYKES at: 11/27/2018 (19:31)
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-JAMES-'s Photo -JAMES- Posts: 12,328
11/26/18 9:22 P

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MJSYKES,
I've brought the question up on the private "Team for Teamleaders" group. A generic question on what sort of links are permitted, or not permitted.

- - - - - -

Your statement:
" If Ms. Lummus was trained as a dietition, I would assume her opinions are most likely incorrect. "
is a very broad brushstroke to say that dieticians in general are mostly incorrect. I can't agree with that. At the start of the article it says:
"Kimberly Lummus, MS, RD, Texas Dietetic Association media representative and public relations coordinator at the Austin Dietetic Association in Austin, Texas."

So it says she has a Master of Science degree, is a Registered Dietician, and is involved with the Austin Dietetic Association.

- - - - - -
Where I can agree with you is that low fat low calorie diets are going to be hard, especially when approached from not being in ketosis to start with.

Edited by: -JAMES- at: 11/26/2018 (21:30)
James
Alberta, Canada


All time highest weight : 217 pounds

Starting weight : 195.0 pounds (June 7, 2012)
Final weight : 168.2 pounds (July 23, 2013)


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/26/18 8:31 P

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James,

I notice that you are able to post links to websites. When I tried doing that, my post was deleted and I was scolded! Is it because my link was to a youtube video?

The "starvaton mode" article you posted is just the opinion of a "media representative" for a "Dietetic Association." If Ms. Lummus was trained as a dietition, I would assume her opinions are most likely incorrect. It is the uninformed opinions of doctors and nutritionists that led me to torture myself with low fat diets for nearly all my life!

Research on fasting has shown that resting metabolism rate INCREASES when you go for days without consuming any calories. I've also read that dietary ketosis mimics some of the effects of fasting. It is true that consistently eating a low calorie non-ketogenic diet will lower your metabolism, but I think much less so or perhaps not at all if you are in ketosis.

When I was on low fat low calorie diets, my body and mind were always telling me to eat more food. Now that my body and mind have finally stopped telling me to eat more, it seems foolish to force myself to do so!



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11/26/18 7:04 P

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Holly,
yes one can put height age, sex and all that into a calculator and come up with a number. But I agree wityesh you its just a first guess on an "ideal" weight.

Some folks have bigger heads than others, or bigger feet, or have more muscle from working out or a job that builds muscles, like construction. So it isn't one size fits all. It's a guess. Like here:
dorukberkerapp.wordpress.com/
2013/11/1
1/what-is-body-mass-index-bmi/

for a given height there is a range of weights that can be considered normal.

MJSYKES,
yes, fat cells are alive, and need some energy each day to keep them alive. But my advice is to eat for the body one targets to have. Not to eat extra calories to support that extra that one might currently have. My advice is also not to under eat in order to make weight loss go faster.

I don't know if "starvation mode" exists, but here is one on it:
www.everydayhealth.com/weight
/fewer-ca
lories-stalls-metabolism.aspx

among other things on that page:
"Lummus says that when your body goes into starvation mode, your metabolism slows to a crawl, burning calories as slowly as possible to conserve its energy stores. This is why people who cut their calories too much may reach a plateau and stop losing weight."

Interesting, the article you point to is in the same journal:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti
cles/PMC5
816424/

You can certainly cut calories as low as you want to go, that is a personal choice, and I'd be curious about how things go for you. But the advice I'd give is to not go below 1800 calories per day.

Edited by: -JAMES- at: 11/26/2018 (19:09)
James
Alberta, Canada


All time highest weight : 217 pounds

Starting weight : 195.0 pounds (June 7, 2012)
Final weight : 168.2 pounds (July 23, 2013)


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/26/18 4:40 P

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Thanks for your input James! I do believe that fat cells also burn calories (though less than muscle) and contribute to resting metabolism rate...so current weight can be considered for determining calories needed to maintain or to lose weight. I think it makes sense to use "ideal weight" (or lean body mass) to calculate protein requirements. [If I applied common g/kg protein recommendations to my current weight instead of my ideal weight, it would be hard to achieve keto macros!]

It seems you agree with my tendency to maintain relative stable carbs and protein consumption and mostly vary my fat grams in proportion to my total calories.

I'm not convinced it is advisable for obese people to maintain a minimum daily calorie level such as 1800 when in ketosis (and when not doing a prolonged fast). I just discovered a small scientific study which placed 20 obese subjects on a very low calorie ketogenic diet; they found no reduction in their resting metabolic rate. You can find the study by googling: "Resting metabolic rate of obese patients under very low calorie ketogenic diet." I'd like to see more evidence on this topic. However, I suspect keto works for weight loss primarily by reducing hunger so people naturally consume fewer calories...and perhaps by preventing the body from slowing metabolism in response.


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11/26/18 11:41 A

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and i'm going to add, too..on sizes. people get all fixated on a size. me? i've NEVER been a single digit size. i starved myself down to 155 in high school. i looked anorexic, my doc had a freaking fit and told me to gain at least 10 pounds (i overachieved and did 100) but i thought i looked hot. but then others started saying omg are you sick..you look so thin and unhealthy.
i was a 12. yeah. a size 12..that many places call "plus". I'm a 14 now..sometimes a 16.
now...some of that is because i have, well, bodacious bazoombas and have had them since i was 9
(cruel trick, mother nature, cruel). and the other part is my hip span, from the size of my frame. so, even though i was UNDER what the charts said was a good weight for me, by close to 15 pounds, i was still in a 12.
my point in telling you my embarassing story is, dont let a size, or a weight number, be the be all and end all. sometimes they are wrong.

all the rest of what James said,,,i fully, fully agree with!

Holly
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11/26/18 11:35 A

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I'm going to contradict James just a bit here.
The charts tell me my weight should be around 165 for my height. when i went to my cardiologist..he told me to STOP. i said..but i'm 185..and he said yes. but i dont want you going below 180. lets do this again. he measured my wrist. he said there..see? you have an extra large frame. the charts dont take into consideration your bone structiure.
so, he had a formula, he put it in his calculator, my wrist measurement. height. sex. age. and then shows me..sure enough..it says 181...
well in my mind thats big. but hes the boss...and the stickler for people being at a normal weight for cardiac health. he wins. the charts, not so much.
And it goes the other way, too. if the chart tells you 160 and you have a small frame, you may really need to be 140.
so, sorry James on that..but i learned something from him. i have NO clue, though, where he got his formula from...

Holly
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-JAMES-'s Photo -JAMES- Posts: 12,328
11/26/18 9:31 A

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Where was I yesterday? I missed all this.

First of all, my suggestion on daily calories is to put your age, sex, height, and maybe other factors into some calculator and find your ideal weight from that chart or calculator. Not your current weight, your ideal weight.

It makes no sense to me that when one is overweight, due to extra body fat, that you eat extra calories to support those types of extra body cells(fat cells). Let's says your ideal body weight is 150 pounds, and you are female, and 5 foot 4 and 40 years old. Then you need about 2200 calories a day.

I wrote a post on the calculations here:
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/t
eam_messa
geboard_thread.asp?board=3267
5x585
36x70456475x1xfirst


My opinion is that you want the daily needs of protein and dietary fat, and carbs 20 grams a day or less.

But the daily needs of fat are going to be about 80 grams of fat regardless of all calculations. Altogether that is not nearly 2200 calories, but more like 1000. So if you are going to eat fewer calories a day cut the fat calories only, and don't go below about 1800 even if 1000 is the technical limit to meet your daily minimums in all areas.





James
Alberta, Canada


All time highest weight : 217 pounds

Starting weight : 195.0 pounds (June 7, 2012)
Final weight : 168.2 pounds (July 23, 2013)


 current weight: 178.5 
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11/25/18 6:29 P

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i'm maintaining now...so whatever i have is fine for me. i adjust down if i dont want to lose..if i want to lose i up the cals and the weight starts going again.
I didnt get the flu till 3 weeks in. i went full keto from day one..didnt even think about easing in. i never cleared anything out of the house till last week..i figured it was time. now the cupboards are bare!! ha!

Holly
Northern NY
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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/25/18 4:27 P

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You seem to be doing very well by consuming about 18% fewer calories than your TDEE!

Perhaps by coincidence, I've felt tired and achy for the last two days; it is the first time I've felt like this since beginning keto about two months ago. [I eased myself into keto by doing lowcarb first, and did not experience any "keto flu".] I doubt my symptoms are related to my diet, but I think I'll try upping my calories anyway.


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11/25/18 3:56 P

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personally it tells me 2200 cals..and i stick to about 1800. the old CICO (calories in calories out) doesnt work, and especially doesnt apply to keto. (if it worked i would have been skinny years ago..LOL

Holly
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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/25/18 3:49 P

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The TDEE calculator estimates my maintenance calories at 2791, which is quite a bit more than my average! [Males tend to have more muscle mass.] I believe that Keto works for weight loss primarily because it reduces your appetite and cravings, enabling you to consume fewer calories. [I also believe it "works" for improved health.] However, perhaps I should try to eat closer to 2791 calories on some days to remind my body that it is not starving.

I'd like to learn how frequently dieters should include a higher calorie day to avoid metabolism slowdown.


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11/25/18 10:31 A

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how tall are you? those calorie numbers sound very reasonable unless you are really tall.

You might want to check out this TDEE calculator...you dont do ANYTHING buit the top..dont choose for weight loss, etc, it doesnt apply to keto. so..dont do advanced options. look at the MAINTENANCE calories thats your minimum daily just to get yourself out of bed, and what you should be near if on keto.
if you exrecise more than 3 days a week put it in, less than 3 days a week just leave it at 3.
and again..you want to look at the maintenance calories.




www.freedieting.com/calorie-calculat
or


Holly
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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/25/18 9:49 A

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Thanks for your replies. I've usually been fasting 14 to 16 hours per day, not counting my morning coffee to which I add one tablespoon of coconut oil. I believe I've been averaging around 1850 calories (about 65% from fat) which is quite a bit less than my 270 lb body is burning. I average 3 to 5 hours of cardio exercise per week. My daily calories usually range between 1600 and 2200. I've remained in ketosis and experienced reduced inflammation health benefits.

Think I'm cutting calories too much?

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11/25/18 9:26 A

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and adding...again agreeing with KD and rementioning..you should be eating according to your ideal weight not your current weight. Thats what your body is "programmed" for..and where people find they do best.

Holly
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11/25/18 9:24 A

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I think KD has it right on..but WHY are you lowering calories by so much?

what we choose to eat for a day can have our calories different, and i get that, but even people i know that have success with IF have larger meals in the time frame they eat in, to be sure to get enough nutrients and calories so their body doesnt decide they are starving it and shut down.

Keto is NOT a low calorie way of eating..and I dont know anyone that has restricted calories that has had long term success with it.

If you can give us some more information as to why your calories are that much lower some days, maybe we can be of more help?

Holly
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11/25/18 9:10 A

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Are you talking about IF (Intermittent Fasting) as a method to consume fewer calories or just eating less? If you continuously eat less than you need (remember James' calculations for macros according to your IDEAL body weight in another thread) your body will compensate by slowing your metabolism down and down regulating other body functions.

If you occasionally IF, I believe that is the best way to do it. Your body will pick up the extra fat from your reserves.

As Holly has said many times - IF did not work for her. James has never done IF (that I'm aware of) but Bev Anne does it a lot and I do too. I haven't done any in a month - it's Thanksgiving and I have company and there are a lot of eating occasions going on, but I'm sticking to keto when I eat.

When my schedule slows down, I plan to do a bit more IF because it gives me a little push into weight loss that I'm not getting when I eat only keto. For example - I will eat dinner on Sunday, no breakfast or lunch on Monday, eat a REGULAR keto dinner on Monday, then lunch and dinner on Tuesday, no breakfast or lunch on Wednesday, a regular dinner on Wednesday, lunch and dinner on Thursday, a regular dinner on Thursday, no breakfast or lunch on Friday, a regular dinner on Friday, then quit IF for the weekend.

I might try and do that two times in a month then take a break.

This is my opinion - I'm sure others diverge here so let's hear it!

Karen "KD"





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11/25/18 9:07 A

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I have a macro calculator but not sure how to send it to you. It calculates everything based on your current weight, height, age and activity level.

When you eat low carb your calories do decrease. I'm doing carb cycling and I notice the protein is higher on my low carb day.

~daizirose


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MJSYKES Posts: 27
11/25/18 5:51 A

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On days that you consume fewer than your usual calories, is it a good idea (for muscle retention) to reduce your percentage of calories from fat and increase your protein percentage to maintain a more stable absolute level of protein consumption? For example, going from 75% fat calories to 60%?

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