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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/28/14 3:07 P

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Great you got started with the testing. I know after another 20 times it won't even bother you any more. Keep us posted. emoticon

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4/28/14 2:56 P

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OK Birgit, I finally overcame the fear and inertia, I got a couple of readings, from now it should be easy. Before start prepping lunch = 97. 1/2hr after eating = 137. I'll take several more readings today. I want to have at least a couple of days before starting cinnamon which I held off so I can have the baseline. I think I found a good way to take cinnamon. I've mixed with coconut oil and put on Mr. Coffee mug warmer. It's ready to go. One teaspoon twice a day.
As you know, this is not scientific as there are too many confounding variables. It will be a relatively speaking an experiment. I don't count carbs. I just cut out the grains, and eat what I considered healthy or superfoods category. That's the reason, I want to try cinnamon and bitter melon as I don't want to give up anything. Some of my high carb foods are apples, beets, blueberries, dates, chocolate, for example. Exercise will be about the same, or I will mention if any increase.

P.S. My food is very similar with the 2 meals per day. The only difference is the protein. For lunch it's the seafood and for dinner it's eggs. Otherwise, the rest are about the same. I have an apple with each meal, pickled turnips and carrots, green veg or beets. 1 oz nuts (walnuts, almonds), fermented chia with blueberries/raspberries, starch like taro roots or plantain or my new favorite, 3 bean salad, sweet like chocolate or dates.

Edited by: SKATER787 at: 4/28/2014 (15:04)
HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/28/14 1:17 P

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Skater, that sounds like a plan. I would love to hear how it's working for you. What are your current carb levels and are you planning to keep them the same? Also, are you going to keep your exercise levels the same? Otherwise you would not know what caused any changes in blood sugars.
Birgit

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SKATER787's Photo SKATER787 SparkPoints: (4,709)
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4/28/14 12:38 P

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For years a friend told me about taking cinnamon everyday for all kind of problems, but I never had the BG number to work with before. My fasting BG were fine so I didn't have any incentive to pursue this. With the A1C in hand, it's a different story. I measured out a heaping teaspoon of cinnamon this morning and it's about 8 gms. I think that's a 'fair' amount for anyone who try to get therapeutic dosage going. That's what I'm planning to do to start with. An oz is just way too much. Judging from other herbs like turmeric, you need something like 3 gms to get into therapeutic dosage. So cinnamon at 8 gms seems reasonable to me.

I started poking the side of my hand and finger this morning so I can get the blood test going. I need to establish a baseline before I get serious about the cinnamon. I'd really like to have a couple of days of hourly and 1/2 hour post prandial numbers.

Edited by: SKATER787 at: 4/28/2014 (12:41)
HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/28/14 11:39 A

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Russell,
the banana and tomato sauce surprise me, as both have over 20 grams of carbs and more than half of that in the form of sugar. The yogurt only surprises me because he uses sweetened fat-free yogurt. My full-fat plain yogurt has only about 4-5 grams of carbs per serving.
I was wondering how far he'd get in his A1c without the banana and the sugar from the yogurt and tomatoes.

Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 4/28/2014 (11:40)
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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/28/14 2:27 A

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I watched the first link, and was amazed that he could get his A1c down to 5.6 eating bananas, and yogurt. I guess it isn't much different than me eating tomatoes, and onions.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/28/14 12:50 A

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I watched the first link. Having about an oz. of cinnamon is a lot. I can see how it would be hard to get that down without some sugar (either from the vanilla yogurt or from the bananas). I know you can use cinnamon in meat dishes as well. Many chili dishes have cinnamon in them and I've thought about making one without the higher-carb beans and just a little tomato.
The one thing we don't know is whether the A1c level improvement was because of the cinnamon or because of other changes, for instance a lower carb intake. The fact that the guy lost a fair amount of weight means that there may have been other changes that he made at the same time.
The other thing I would want to check out is whether there are any side effects to consuming that much cinnamon and/or any reactions with any medications. But it's definitely something to look into.
I have tried cinnamon but never larger doses like this.
Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 4/28/2014 (00:51)
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SKATER787's Photo SKATER787 SparkPoints: (4,709)
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4/28/14 12:14 A

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OK Birgit,

I did some more research on lowering BS with cinnamon. This guy was taking 30 grams a day to lower his A1C from 6.1 to 5.6. I've been taking one or two cap per day which is either 500 mg or 1 gram per day. An insignificant amount to have any effect. Now I have some idea of how much to take. What kind of dosage were you doing with cinnamon? I suspect that it was too low.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojIJ_
zJ0Caw


I will also look into bitter melon as part of the program.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zRxZ
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Edited by: SKATER787 at: 4/28/2014 (00:17)
HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/27/14 6:52 P

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Unfortunately the thread where this came from seems to have been deleted by the admins on Spark. But there is a Spark team about the book Grain Brain by Dr. Perlmutter. He seems to have lots of excellent info about memory and has written several other books as well.
Birgit

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/27/14 1:59 P

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I wanted to add this to the discussion about the effects of even very moderate levels of blood sugar on memory and brain health that came up in another spark thread:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2c2Oq-Pi2o
The whole talk is good but you can also go to about minute 26 and listen for a while.

Birgit

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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/27/14 7:46 A

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I think to really explore how diet effects diabetics Kathy, we need to include the range of people from pre-diabetics, such as Birgit, and at the other end, long time diabetics such as you, who have already had diabetic complications. How we treat both of you would obviously vary.

One thing about low carb, is that you don't need to do high protein to do it, not that i am suggesting you would want, or be able to follow low carb, but there is a myth out there that it is a high protein diet. Many of my fellow low carbers tend to eat 10-15 % protein, and very little of it coming from meat. When I started I ate about 35 % meat, and now I have cut down to 20-25 %, since I upped carbs. I may eventually get to 15 % protein. Meat is getting expensive, and if I was at 15 %, I could get enough protein from things like beans.

With my CHF, I am on Lasix, so there is always a risk of kidney damage, which is one reason I cut protein. Supposedly, since I do not have any kidney problems yet, low carb is harmless, but I see no need to overwork my kidneys, even if they could handle it. I keep testing good, so hopefully that continues.

In much the same way, we also need to work on solutions for those eating a higher carb diet. We can't just say, eat low carb, or die from diabetic complications. We need to address how to help ALL diabetics, even those who couldn't possibly eat LCHF. For most, this will require meds/Insulin.

We need to look at it as a scale.. lower carb = less meds, and higher carbs = more meds. Some people might decide that they would rather take meds, if they could enjoy some macaroni and cheese ( my favorite dish.. I miss you!! emoticon ).

I started this thread because I believe that we should aim for 80-110, whether we can do this without meds on a low carb plan, or with Insulin on a diabetic diet. We obviously have times when our blood sugars vary wildly, such as when we are sick, but on a day to day basis, we should aim for 80-110, which is a normal range.

I take Coumadin, and they told me not to change my diet, that they would change my meds to fit what I ate, so if I decided to indulge in lots of greens, and soy, they would just up my meds. Diabetes should be treated the same way. Suggesting that a person eat in a way that they wouldn't eat will just lead to them cheating. The goal is consistency, so the meds cover the diet you consume, whether that is 150 grams, or 15 grams.

I think it is important to point out that not only can low carb be used as a tool to maybe control diabetes through diet, but also that many people don't WANT to, or CAN do low carb, and they need to be treated too. By treated , I mean as close to normal blood sugars as possible, and I think it is possible for 3/4 ths of diabetics to have normal blood sugars, but doctors keep them elevated out of fear of low blood sugars.

If a diabetic can learn how to adjust Insulin to keep sugars below 130, or 110, then surely we can teach a diabetic how to space out carbs, and how much to eat, so they can keep them just over 80. Both require some trial and error.

The goal for everybody should be the same though. How we get there will vary, which is why I asked for goals, not methods of reaching those goals.

Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 4/27/2014 (07:49)
"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

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“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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I.M.MAGIC's Photo I.M.MAGIC Posts: 13,196
4/26/14 2:32 P

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I've got 20 years on you, RUSSELL--We all have to work from where we're at, and I've been playing this "game" for half your lifetime! LOL

I do test my blood sugar before a meal-- and I eat six times a day, so I'm testing every three hours or so-- but I measure the insulin and inject after each meal, since I'm never sure how much I'm going to be able to eat (another health issue, nothing to do with diabetes...)--and I only do bolus adjustments every other meal. I'm working with a new endocrinologist (my "old" one retired!), and we have already reduced my insulin doses twice--I was crashing in the middle of the night AND around lunch time--but my numbers are all over the place right now, because I'm currently fighting a virus or something, so my numbers are running in the 200-300 range at the moment. Which means, of course, taking more insulin...

Again, my kidney damage makes too much of a low carb diet out of the question--no other way to make up the caloric needs since my kidneys won't tolerate the minerals in the protein, and even some vegetables can reduce my kidney function-- and too much fat is.... well, it causes other issues.

I'm glad you are all benefiting from what's been learned in the last several years... it's still a hit or miss proposition, and we have to find our own path-- but there is hope that some day we CAN grow a new pancreas and kidneys, and whatever else we may need... won't that be fun?

Kathy emoticon
P.S. Looking forward to that Diabetes Summit...

Edited by: I.M.MAGIC at: 4/26/2014 (14:34)
"The real secret of success is enthusiasm..." thanks, Walter P. Chrysler. I believe it. That's what I want in my life--to give my imagination a chance, to live with energy and enthusiasm!
P.S. I looked up enthusiasm, and it says the root words mean God within... interesting...!

Ralph Waldo Emerson said 'Life belongs to the energetic.' But you don't have to be frenetic and hyper--some energy is quiet and steady, like a heartbeat... and that works too! LOL

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/26/14 2:23 A

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Russell's still up on a Friday night, he,he. Must be after midnight your time. emoticon

I've been thinking about this as well. I wonder if insulin spikes can be really huge with even relatively low-carb foods when you are on insulin. Also, I assumed that insulin takes quite a while to work, even fast-acting insulin. Does this not mean you'd have to take it before you eat. I've never used any so am clueless on this issue.
Birgit


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/26/14 2:17 A

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I.M.Magic. I don't even test my blood sugars anymore. May will be 4 years since I quit all diabetes meds.. 1 year after starting low carb.

When I had higher blood sugars, I would have sporadic Insulin surges, and after eating a carby meal, might be surprised with a 120 glucose level. Most times not though...lol.

Now I tend to test around 75 for fbs when I go to doctor, and if I am allowed to eat ( no blood work ), I do so 2 hours before I plan to be tested. So if my appt. is at 8:30, I eat at 7 a.m., and get tested around 9 after BP, temp, general discussion about why I am doing so well, etc..lol. They get the good stuff over, then poke me. If this happens, I expect it to be 90-95, and am usually with 1-2 mg/dl. I haven't tested over 100 in years, except for when they crashed my blood sugars at the hospital ( 42 ), and then spiked them.

Today I had a high carb day ( 42 net carbs 61 total - 19 fiber ). One thing about it, is that since I eat such a low amount of carbs, why would my body even have an Insulin surge? Insulin is a response to glucose, and at 65% fat, and 10.7% carbs, I don't have much glucose, so no risk of huge Insulin spike, dropping my blood sugars dangerously low. I only have low blood sugars after eating off plan, and having a high blood sugar. Then it crashes. I actually tend to eat some chicken after a cheat meal, which gets digested slower, but does up blood sugars some. This way it reduces the crash, and I don't get the low blood sugar.

Our pancreas is not working properly, but yes, it is working, and the best way to avoid an Insulin surge is to avoid a glucose surge ( from carbs ).

Thanks for the explanation though. I think eating differently for the past 5 years has made me forget most of these problems, since I no longer have them. Does the idea that you are told to have high blood sugars, because the way you eat could precipitate a low blood sugar by Insulin surge sound weird to anyone else? Wouldn't it be better to have a 90 b.s., with low enough carbs so that even if the pancreas worked properly for a bit, it wouldn't produce tons of Insulin?

Maybe I am not understanding diabetic complications, but as far as I know they happen because of high blood sugars, and 6.1 is high. I know I am sounding like a broken record, but shouldn't the goal be normal blood sugars, without meds?

I had low blood sugars for the first year of low carb, but then they cut my meds completely. Yes you could have low blood sugars, because you are taking meds to drop glucose level. If your doctor is paying attention though, they could just get rid of those meds, and no more low blood sugars.

Part of the problem I see with Insulin users is that it sounds like they take Insulin before eating, not after. This means that once you take it, you have to spike your blood sugar to offset it. Seems like it would be better to eat, and then test, and take Insulin to make corrections, like the body does.Insulin does make it a bit more complicated, but I have talked to dozens of diabetics who were on Insulin, and stopped all medication for diabetes, with low carb.

I do have to wonder how many Insulin users have gotten off their meds while eating 45 % carbs. Doesn't really sound possible, so why do we eat that many carbs? Especially when it complicates things, because your pancreas is still working sporadically ( Type II ).

Wouldn't it make more sense to have lower blood sugars, and when you start to get low, eat some vegetables? To me, it seems like we are solving the problem backwards. This takes time to learn to do correctly, and I had a few low blood sugars, but in time, without meds, you learn how many carbs you need to eat to keep blood sugars above 80.. Is this any different than the learning curve one needs to learn to figure out how much Insulin to take to not drop glucose below 80?

It has been over a year since I had a low blood sugar ( the hospital caused it ), and several years since I had one I caused, because I learned how to control my own blood sugars with diet, not pills/Insulin. Seems like a fear of low blood sugars has resulted in perpetual HIGH blood sugars, which keeps you on the pills/Insulin.

There is a danger from getting low blood sugars, but on a low carb diet, there won't be any rapid drops, because there is very little Insulin, even when the pancreas decides to do it's job. However, there is also a huge risk of perpetual HIGH blood sugars too, like kidney failure, blindness, amputation.

One has to ask why they chose the one method over the other. If I learn to avoid low blood sugars with diet, I can have blood sugars always stay below 110, and less chance of having these diabetic complications. From the other way, I just keep blood sugars slightly higher, to avoid low blood sugars, which guarantees that with time, I will have these diabetic complications. Since I am 40, I decided not to follow this plan. It seems like what the real reason for the " diabetic " diet, is that they don't want to train people how to deal with low blood sugars, or don't think they can. So they keep you at 150, and since you don't have blurry vision or headaches, you don't pay attention to what this is doing to your body. Meanwhile the blurry vision and headaches alarm people, so they avoid that.. but is it healthier? Seems like this is just the squeaky wheel getting the grease. You complain about the low blood sugar symptoms, so they keep them artificially high, so that you will just shut up about feeling bad. I felt great with 300 blood sugars.

In 15 years your doctor will be sympathetic about you being placed on kidney dialysis, but of course no one will blame them for this. The doctor followed the plan. If they get lucky, we will be able to grow kidneys, or you will die of old age ( which seems to have been the treatment plan ). Unfortunately, younger people are getting diabetes, and not dying at 72, but at 52, from complications from diabetes. I am not willing to risk the idea that they will be able to grow new eyes, heart, or kidneys for me. So I won't be following the plan to keep blood sugars moderately high ( 6.0-7.0 ). This plan slows down the damage, but how old are you, and how much longer do you plan to live? If this is longer than it will take to develop diabetic complications, we have a major problem, right?

While some of us may be okay going on kidney dialysis at 70, and dying at 74 ( not a bad lifespan ), what about teenagers who are getting diabetes today. Most of you were 40 +.when you found out you were diabetic, i was 28, but some of these kids are 15.. they have no chance of running out the clock. Even if the high blood sugar plan will work for those of you above 60, shouldn't we be considering a better plan for those who might live with diabetes for 60 + years? How do they do so without developing these diabetic complications.

A 6.0 may work if you are 55, and just hoping to last another 25 years, but if you are 15, is 25 years enough? I am 40, and the idea of dying right now isn't something I think is good enough.

I think the old plan was good enough, due to advanced age of people getting diabetes ( people 65 + might disagree ), but what about the next generation of diabetics? Will they be dying in their 30's - 50's?

Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 4/26/2014 (02:20)
"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/25/14 10:16 P

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I can see how it would be tough if your body produces insulin sporadically. Would it help to test more often in that situation? Maybe not because you need to give insulin time to work?

Birgit

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I.M.MAGIC's Photo I.M.MAGIC Posts: 13,196
4/25/14 8:38 P

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RUSSELL, my endocrinologist likes my A1C up a bit too--right around 6.1 to 6.5--because my body still produces its own insulin, but sporadically--so I can be taking normal doses of insulin and I will crash unexpectedly, and the lows are more immediately life threatening... It's an interesting challenge, living with this stuff, isn't it? LOL

"The real secret of success is enthusiasm..." thanks, Walter P. Chrysler. I believe it. That's what I want in my life--to give my imagination a chance, to live with energy and enthusiasm!
P.S. I looked up enthusiasm, and it says the root words mean God within... interesting...!

Ralph Waldo Emerson said 'Life belongs to the energetic.' But you don't have to be frenetic and hyper--some energy is quiet and steady, like a heartbeat... and that works too! LOL

Life comes one mome


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FOXSTAR10's Photo FOXSTAR10 SparkPoints: (81,924)
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4/25/14 5:12 A

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I think from things my doctor has said (he is diabetic) that a lot of people just don't care or don't take enough care to get the A1c down to 7.0 let alone lower.

When I started Sparkpeople my A1c was 9.6 and he was talking about putting me on insulin. Not where I wanted to go. I told him lets see where I am at in 3 months. I came back with a 20 pound loss and an A1c of 7.6.

Last checkup (yesterday) was 6.8 after a bad winter. The weather had my arthritis acting up so much I was in bed a lot because everything hurt. I am out of meds I can take for that until something new comes out for me to try.



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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/24/14 11:46 P

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Did your Endo tell you why a 7.0 A1c was better than a 5.9?

High blood sugars cause damage to us, so why would that be a desirable goal? This baffles me. I have been below 5.4 for 3 years now, and my doctors are all very happy. I do this without any diabetes meds too. Looking back at when I had out of control blood sugars, I do have to wonder why my doctors didn't increase doses of my meds to get my levels down to normal ranges. Why treat a disease halfway?

Personally I like my fbs to be around 70, and 2 hours after a meal to top out at 100-105 max.

I asked this question for this very reason. It seems that the goals set up for diabetics are very minimal. I have a disease which is identified by high blood sugars, so what I want, is NORMAL blood sugars, without medication. So I am confused at why anyone would settle for a 7.0 A1c, while on meds. That person got horrible results. They will need to stay on meds forever, and will get diabetic complications. How is that success? The idea of purposefully increasing blood sugars is even stranger than anything I thought I might hear though. I would ask a lot of questions, and see if their explanation is good enough for you to accept it.

Multiple people here talking about 100-120 blood sugars, so why is the goal so high ( 7.0 A1c )? Why not make the goal 6.0, or low enough to get them off meds, or normal levels if they are on medication? The idea of taking meds to control a disease, and then not controlling the disease makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe there is a good reason, and if you find out, let me know what it is.


"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

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“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/24/14 11:37 P

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Tight control of no benefit to seniors? Now that makes no sense to me at all. Wanting the A1c to go up makes even less sense. I would ask lots of questions as negative effects of high blood sugars start much lower than that at anything over 5.4, definitely anything over 5.6

Birgit

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PYNETREE's Photo PYNETREE Posts: 6,909
4/24/14 10:22 P

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Now that I am on Medicare, I can only test once a day. So I stick to testing my Fasting Blood Glucose, and a FBG of 100 is where I am comfortable.

My HbA1c has been 5.4 to 5.9 for the last few years - in the last 10 years, I have only had an A1c of 6.9 one time, when I was hospitalized for 4 months. All the others, every three months, for about 20 years have been 5.9 or lower.
Now, studies have shown such tight control of BG, is of NO Benefit for Seniors. So, my new Endo wants my A1c to go UP to about 7.0. She has cut the dosage of one of my Diabetes meds in half. I go in June, so we shall see then, how high it has gone.
Seems very odd to be told that I take too good care, I am in too tight a control.

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CROYLE55 Posts: 1,456
4/24/14 1:07 P

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When it's below 110

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AFM190's Photo AFM190 SparkPoints: (81,412)
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4/24/14 11:52 A

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I only test in the morning so anything between 100 and 110 is good for me.

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,869
4/24/14 11:24 A

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fasting below 95, two hours after eating close to 100
I may set new, tighter goals once I've done this longer

Birgit

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DBELLE39's Photo DBELLE39 SparkPoints: (277,753)
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4/24/14 10:52 A

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Anything below 140

Donna B.

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Goal Weight 135

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 current weight: 168.8 
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1CRAZYDOG's Photo 1CRAZYDOG Posts: 418,538
4/24/14 10:48 A

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I am happiest below 100 two hrs. after eating as well.

Love is the root of all things good in life.


 current weight: 100.0 
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4/24/14 10:41 A

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I aim for never going above 120, so at 2 hours I'm happiest below 100.

RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/24/14 10:37 A

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I am just wondering what number you would need to see after a meal ( 2 hours after ), to be happy.

At one time, anything lower than 300 was great, and then as I got better control, I would be happy with anything under 180, so a 164 after lunch and I would feel like I did good.

According to Dr. Bernstein a 7.0 HgbA1c coincides with a 180 average blood glucose level, so wondering if this is the goal of most diabetics. 6.5 would = 160, so 160-180 seems to be the ADA's goals. Wonder if this is the same among us diabetics.


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