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4/27/18 12:11 P

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Good thread. And yep the average doctor knows little about diet and what they know is dead wrong.

The truth is that if you are over weight you don't have to eat anything. NOTHING! your body will quickly adapt to eating your own fat. That is precisely what I do much of the time. It is called intermittent fasting and I started from that and DISCOVERED keto along the way. All the IF doctors were saying "the fastest way to ketosis is Intermittent Fasting and so I had to lookup ketogenic diet to see what they were talking about.

But I was starting from diabetes and handling that through fasting. Deep fasting it turns out is just a strict keto diet, I. E. Oil only I. E. My body fat.

Now after much study I eat a strict keto diet when I "break fast". So I stay in deep ketosis 24/7 and my diabetes is now diet controlled, no drugs, losing 2 pounds a week or more and happy as a pig in... Keto.

Edited by: JWCOLBY at: 4/27/2018 (12:12)
jwc

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4/24/18 1:27 P

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I so agree Kara..
a couple years ago my sister had really good results with Lynn Genet (i think thats her name?) "The Plan". you start with VERY few foods. after your i think week of "detox" you add in ONE food. for 3 days. if you dont lose weight, you are considered "reactive" to that food. you go on adding things one at a time, deciding if you should continue eliminating them or if they are ok for you. And EVERYONE is different. I didnt lose from the get go. i was sick..as in..nauseous..couldnt keep things down...and my sister checked with the Lynn person, whom she had hired to help her. She said..wow..eliminate one of the starting foods at a time--it HAS to be one of them!! so...the first thing i eliminated..nope nothing. then another..finally i got to Olive oil. and wasnt it just that?? something noone has a problem with!! I stopped having olive oil and subbed in grapeseed (a no no on keto) and started losing and doing fine. it was very very slow, and i really disliked most of the food. so i didnt stick to it for more than 6 months. i think i lost a grand total of 11 pounds in the 6 months, but it was DOWN. and in that time, Lynn said to go ahead and add the olive oil back in..small amount at first..and now i'm FINE with it again. go figure...good thing because i use it in everything...but according to her research, we can heal from the things we are reactive to. another thing i had trouble with was pork..and i LOVE pork. it was hard..but 2 months off it and i can eat it again now with no problems.
The Plan is very interesting, and could be used in conjunction with keto, just using only keto foods instead of the suggested, to find where your resistance is.

on your swelling going down..that happened with me, too. i lost 16 pounds my first week on keto..and i think it was all in my left ankle, which has plagued me for YEARS. Now, while its still slightly bigger than my right ankle, i dont look like i have an inner tube around it. That, and my back bra fat..that went the first month...i was amazed. and all but one of my chins is gone!! now if i could just get rid of my 3 c section belly...LOL!! and my family curse..the "Jones legs"..even the really skinny ones of us have legs like tree trunks!!

Holly
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4/24/18 12:29 P

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Yes, James! I agree. I saw this phenomenon play out through my efforts to figure out what was wrong and fix it (not from any medical advice available on the topic!). Elimination diets are hard - mostly because they're so time consuming to do right - and it is easy to get impatient and flounder long before you get a definitive answer.

Not only that, but people (again, most often for lack of accurate information and training on the topic, I think) don't take into consideration the effects of any factors beyond the food itself. With the way most of our food is mass-produced, it is genetically modified and filled with chemicals before it even leaves the field or farm. Intuitively it makes sense that our bodies were designed to process food - it's debatable whether that includes cultivated foods or not - but surely not foods that have been genetically modified or have grown up covered (or injected) with all the chemicals. If one is judging one's reaction to wheat, say, by eating/not eating commercially prepared pasta or bread, it isn't really a fair comparison. It COULD be the grain, or it COULD be a whole list of other things. You don't know. And it is truly nearly impossible to eliminate everything that contains those "other things" because one does have to eat something in the interim! It seems that's why elimination diets like AIP take whole groups of foods entirely out of the equation. It's just easier that way.

Another factor is that there are so many symptoms caused by foods one eats, that it very hard to distinguish what comes from what. On AIP, I was eating allowed carbs, mostly fruit and root vegetables and flours made from root vegetables, some honey and pure maple syrup. After I figured out the banana thing, I eliminated foods that contain high amount of fructose, fermented foods like kombucha and sauerkraut, as well as cauliflower, broccoli, and brussels sprouts, which had been a staple of my diet for years. I thought I'd be ok because I'd already eliminated so much; however, I was still having symptoms that I couldn't pin down, like wicked swelling, tummy bloat and painful gas, constipation, flushing in my nose, hands, and lower legs...things like that. I still fought the urge to binge eat on sugary foods just about every day. I was still confused. And I was frustrated and fatigued and sick. It is in my nature to problem solve, so I refused to give up. That's when I found the nutritionist. I said "I don't care if I have to be on an elimination diet for the rest of my life, at this point. I simply can't be reacting to EVERYTHING!!" Even as of a few weeks ago I had no idea that one could have difficulty digesting carbohydrates. I didn't (and still probably don't, fully) understand that the body could get energy from fat OR carbs...that it didn't necessarily need carbohydrates to function optimally.

I'm definitely new to this, but the progress forward in the two weeks-ish of adopting a LCHF diet has been nothing short of amazing for me. The swelling is nearly all gone. Gone are the days of being so bloated I looked like I was 7 months pregnant. Gone are the days of painful gas, heartburn, and constipation. I haven't checked my BP or fasting blood sugar yet, but I'm guessing those have improved as well. The BP alone should be much improved just by the water loss and reducing the volume of my blood. So, I'm still learning. Still trying things. I tried to eat a small amount of cooked broccoli and a small amount of cooked Brussels sprouts on two different days last week, but on both occasions the gas, bloating, and flushing returned with a vengeance. The nutritionist recommended to avoid those for now, and everything evened right back out again. My dietary fiber intake is low, yet the constipation problem is resolved. I couldn't be happier!



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4/24/18 8:46 A

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I've just tried to catch up on this dialogue, and now maybe I can make this a trialogue.

I have type-2 diabetes, and also auto-immune issues. Both of these got much better when I started eating low carb, which transitioned into Keto after 5 months.

As near as I can tell it wasn't carbs in general that bothered me (though that was bad for my blood sugar), it was probably wheat that was the irritant. Its not like one eats wheat, and within 12 hours gets a stomach ache, throws up, and says I'm not eating that again. No, its a slow slow decline, and you don't make the connection. Its also a slow slow recovery. Most folks want instant healing. I stopped eating wheat, and 3 days later I don't feel any better ... so I'm not giving up wheat.

Also, on loosing weight ... I think it is the insulin response to carbs, to lower blood sugar. Insulin is a fat storage hormone. Storing those calories away for "later", but if you keep eating carbs that "later" never comes, its continual storage mode. KALYFROO, your loss of so much water weight at the start says to me that your body was trying to dilute something that was bothering you, and trying to reduce its impact on you that way. So it sounds like you are on the right path.

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4/23/18 4:36 P

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You will find the weight loss is a happy side effect of keto. I did start because i saw the wonderful results my son had. he lost 70 in 10 months. but he sure doesnt do what the experts recommend. hes an "if it fits your macros its fine" one..and he uses 30 net carbs as his carb rule. he goes on and off when he wants,,,and i have found that none of that is really healthy, or really keto. so far its worked for him..but when he goes off he gains, and the ONLY reason he is doing keto is for weight. I prefer to get the good health first, and the weight loss is just a great side effect..so i do what all the research says is the optimum way to do it.
I love how your daughter eats!! how wonderful is that!! and i think at that age, with zero problems shes one lucky girl to have a mom who is being proactive now!!
You will do great, i can tell already! Especially with the attitude of the health coming first. I did so much better when i tossed the scale every day (sometimes 2 or 3 times a day..man that was ridiculous) and get on once every week or two. I didnt do any significant losing since last june..until now. i've gone back to basics and i feel better and i'm starting to lose again..but if i never lose another pound? thats ok too..because i'm now in just slightly overweight range for the first time in my adult life..no longer morbidly obese or obese. My wonderful doctor is really pleased..if you read my "story" you will see she was opposed to keto due to the high fat, but we made a deal..i have to have bloodwork every three months due to the heavy pain killers i take and one of my cardiac meds. I said if my bloodwork was off i'd reconsider, but if it was good, she would support me and do more research. She agreed..and my bloodwork was perfect. She was a little taken aback at a 40 pound loss in 3 months, but started researching and now suggests it.
and in the fall i'm going to teach a keto class at the local adult ed center for the school district...if there is enough interest, which i'm betting there will be. i have a bunch of people i've helped get started..all are doing fantastic and loving how they feel!!
Oh..and i just turned 60..and i keep hearing people say yeah of course it works on younger people with great metabolism..i'm here to say it works on anyone who REALLY works it and is willing to follow it. I tried everything..and i mean everything..to a t..to lose weight my entire life. nothing worked. i gained on WW. gained on Atkins. i might lose a small amount on some things, but then it would stop..i'd give it 3 or 6 months and give up..and gain everything back plus.
so for this to have worked, worked quickly, without hunger or cravings...is amazing. i'm never going back...

Holly
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4/23/18 4:12 P

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Thanks! Wow, Holly, I got goosebumps reading your story. Forget "Physician, heal thyself." It's now "Patient, heal thyself!". :-(

My mom was a registered nurse for her career. In her day, nurses were trained to accept what the doctor said as law, never to question, and to follow his instructions to the letter. Now, she has just about every ailment known to man, including Type II diabetes, COPD, and several different autoimmune diseases. She's gone from nurse to mom to professional patient. (In fact, when my son was a preschooler and we talked about what everyone in our family did for work, he sincerely thought his Grandma's job was to go to the doctor! And that was 15 years ago.) She still feels the same way about doctors. They're gods and she obediently does whatever they tell her...which NEVER includes looking at what she's eating. A1C up? Here's more insulin. Fibromyalgia? Here's some anti inflammatories. Etc. etc. She has so many meds that my poor father has to keep track of them in a spreadsheet so she doesn't run out!

I want to share what I'm learning with her so far in this journey, because I think lots of it could help her. She's the iChing, after all. :-) She listens for a bit, not comprehending, just patiently hearing me out on what she calls my weight-loss kicks. Then she gets all concerned and says "Well, you're not going to DEPRIVE Linley, are you??" (Linley's my 3 yo daughter, a teeny tiny package full of joy and boundless energy). I'm like, no. Mom. She's not being deprived. She's actually getting very nutrient dense foods - including carbohydrates - and she eats plenty of them! She loves fruit of all kinds - and still gets that - she loves green beans, root vegetables, broccoli with grass fed butter and lemon juice, and will pick avocado over chocolate any day. She laps up grass fed beef, pasture-raised chicken and eggs, sunflower seed and nut butters. She drinks organic milk. She eats whatever is on the menu at preschool, and they focus on whole grains, fruits, veggies, meat or vegetarian options. Her teachers chuckle to me that she eats her whole meal, veggies included, staying to clear her plate even after most of her classmates have skipped it and left the table. It's especially funny when you consider that the child who eats the most is at the 25th percentile for weight and height. She has been since she was born, thanks to her biological father's genetics. She's very smart and developmentally ahead of her chronological age. She's hardly ever sick. Her pediatrician says she's "perfect". But, my mom sees her tiny body and wants to fatten her up. I don't deny treats, outright. My rule is simply that healthy food comes first. Yet, we visited my parents over the weekend and the entire time my mom was slipping the child sugary treats and cereals because "Mommy's on a diet." UGH!! I never use the word "diet" around my daughter. Instead I emphasize what this or that food does for us, nutritionally (those carrots have vitamin A for healthy eyes! or that chicken is giving your muscles protein so you can grow strong! or avocado is brain food!) and I only talk about my body in a positive manner. It's no wonder I grew up with "food issues", but who knew it was ACTUALLY food intolerance!! When I was a kid they tried to solve my problems with frequent diarrhea by giving me bran muffins. Um. No. Lol

When I think of how long I've been feeling my way around in the dark on this issue, and alllllll the problems caused by not having this bit of KEY information, I get really angry as well. I'm looking forward to learning from everyone on this team, as Keto is still new to me. It is counter intuitive to eat all that fat! My dietitian says "I'm concerned you're not eating enough to heal your gut" and I am having trouble getting over 1500 calories in a day. I have taken to eating spoonsful of coconut oil or natural almond butter just to get my fat grams in...and so far my body is thanking me! Eventually I do want to get around to weight loss, too! I have 80-100 lbs to lose yet. So reading your story I'm even more inspired!

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4/23/18 1:49 P

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Hi Kara and WELCOME!!! You are so right...for 3 years i suffered from horrible symptoms..all yours plus a ton more..to the point i couldnt get out of bed, lost my job, almost lost my kids. The docs in my area were sure i was "just a hypochondriac". Yeah i was a nurse they had worked with daily for years, never took sick leave, never complained about anything..but suddenly i was making it up. One of my colleagues brought me an article one day..said..Holls..this sounds JUST like you. Lyme disease. It was so new they knew little to nothing about it. and i'd gone 3 years with it slowly destroying my cardiac system, my central nervous system, eating away at my joints, wreaking havoc with my eyesight.
I was treated swiftly and strongly when CDC stepped in and made the diagnosis when noone else would. I had complications that were horrific. a catheter to give me my meds broke off and lodged in my heart. it was utter, pure, hell. and i survived it..with one good doc that wasnt afraid, and my own need to be around for my kids.
not once, never EVER did anyone suggest diet. here i am..20 years later with major residual symptoms and damage..and I find keto by accident. I am just now walking in from an echocardiogram and am wearing a 24 hour holter..a yearly thing for me so they can keep track of the damage..and the tech, who knows me from many years of this, came out looked around walked over to the desk says i thought you said holly was here..she is..right there..he said oh..then..OH!!! OH MY GOD!! Holly!!! what the what?? yeah..i lost 132 pounds. and still losing. and we start to walk and he stops dead. umm..walk to that room..he points. so i do..and about 2 doors down he says STOP!!! now walk again. i'm thinking..what the heck?? and he runs up to me and says..Holly..do you realize for the first time since i've known you YOU ARENT LIMPING!!! yeah. joints are better. headaches are gone. bloodwork is optimal. he was absolutely flabbergasted. he asked me to tell him more..his wife is a nurse practitioner..and she deals with lots of lyme cases. shes going to give me a call for more info so she can pass it on.
but ever single dietitian in the area thinks keto is horrid..because thats what they were taught.
it makes me SO ANGRY!!

But i'm so happy for you..and for everyone that has found and worked this way of eating. look at the results you are seeing this quick!!!
oh..and my echo? it was pretty darn good this time....

Holly
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4/23/18 1:25 P

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Simply put, medical doctors aren't trained on the correlation between food and health. They're trained to diagnose a condition and prescribe medications to manage or mitigate the symptoms (I didn't say cure the condition :-)). I'm laying out my own path to health, feeling my way. It's a long process with lots of trial and error and being miserable in the interim. Forgive the long post, but there's a lot of detail here. If you want to skip to the sum-up, go to the last paragraph. :-)
Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for those in the medical community. Doctors and nurses go to great lengths to obtain their education and meet all the requirements to be able to practice. They treat and care for their patients to the very best of their ability. I come from a family full of these great professionals and am in awe of everything they do. Here in the Atlanta area I have easy access to world-class physicians and medical facilities of all types. My primary care doctor is a brilliant diagnostician. She's thorough, careful, and systematic in her treatment of me. She listens. She responds accordingly. She loops in other resources, specialists, etc. as needed.
However.
Here I am, early 40s, overweight. Things that have been happening here and there over the past 4 or 5 years (frequent migraines, joint and muscle pain, recurrent high blood pressure, asthma not well controlled, frequent upper respiratory illnesses, crushing fatigue, difficulty losing weight, A1C inching slowly upward, but not high enough to be Type II, anxiety, digestive issues) were treated as singular conditions, with a slew of medication, and mostly written off to the fact that I'm a single mom (and solitary parent) of a toddler, surviving a nasty divorce from an abusive narcissist, and working full time plus at an incredibly demanding job that requires travel, yadda yadda. That is, until last October, when I finally went to see my doctor, saying that THIS much fatigue and muscle/joint pain and weakness just can't be normal. She ran blood tests which revealed an off the charts high autoimmune response in my body. She immediately sent me to a rheumatologist, who ran more extensive bloodwork that confirmed that yes, there was an extreme autoimmune response happening somewhere, but they didn't know where. It hadn't landed in a condition yet. It wasn't hashimotos, lupus, diabetes, chron's, or IBS. It wasn't affecting my heart muscle, lungs, or intestines. It was nowhere, yet everywhere. And I was miserable. The rheumatologist asked me if I knew anything about leaky gut. I said a little, since my sister had been doing an autoimmune protocol for a few years, as a way of better controlling her Type I diabetes.
The idea of "leaky gut" has been around for awhile. But not in the medical field. The rheumatologist was excited about it, though. She told me: "No matter what this ends up being, the best I can do for you is to give you medicines to reduce the pain and, if needed, tamp down your immune system. Look into leaky gut and see what you can do to stop the autoimmune response with food. This is just now beginning to be studied in the medical field, but it is so promising. I think this area is where Nobel Prizes will be awarded in the future." Eureka! emoticon I asked her if she could recommend resources so I knew what was good vs. bad information from ALL that's out there on the web. Nope, she had none. I asked her if she knew any nutritionists who worked in this field. Nope, not at all. Sorry!
So, I set about learning as much as I could and then trying the autoimmune protocol (very restrictive paleo, designed to eliminate the most inflammatory foods for a period of time, then allowing re-introduction over time as the gut heals). I followed the AIP protocol for a month or so, but was still having symptoms. Twice one week I ended up in the bathroom in major gastro distress. I pieced it together and figured out the commonality between those two days was that I'd eaten some dried bananas (Pure brand is only banana and cinnamon, which is allowed on AIP). It was then I learned that fructose sensitivity is a "thing". Google was my best friend and my worst enemy! So I tried pairing AIP with a low-FODMAP diet. That seemed to help, but I was eating practically nothing. There are very few foods that survive both of those lists. My boyfriend jokes...put some air on a plate and that's what Kara eats! Yet, I was still swollen, miserable, tired, and sick.
Finally, through a website called thumbtack, I found a registered dietitian who had experience with leaky gut. She is several states away from me, so thankfully she supports virtual meetings, email check-ins, etc. I said I give up trying to figure this out. I can't be reacting to everything! I follow her plan, which she lays out monthly, tweaking in the interim based on my feedback and nutrition logs. She's been giving me my "macros" since before I called them that.
And...I've discovered I have a carbohydrate intolerance (WHO KNEW!!) and have landed on Keto as my way of eating going forward. It has only been about a week and a half since I made the switch (which wasn't hard because I'd already been eating much lower carb for a couple months) but already I feel so much better! The nutritionist still gives me my macros (remember we're ultimately focused on healing the gut, not weight loss necessarily). In the first few days, with eliminating carbs (mostly) and giving my body enough protein to facilitate fluid exchange in my cells, I lost 9 pounds of water weight! Water weighs like 7 pounds a gallon, so I lost over a gallon of water!! My cankles are gone. I can breathe better with less fluid on my heart and lungs. My digestive issues have pretty much cleared up entirely. I have more energy and actually might be able to do some exercise! What a journey to get here, and it feels like I'm just getting started really. But at least I have a path!


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