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PROVERBS31JULIA's Photo PROVERBS31JULIA Posts: 4,501
11/24/17 5:16 P

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OOoh thanks for the heads up! Sounds like a good read!

Proverbs 31:17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.


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11/17/17 7:35 A

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Oh, I don't have that one! I'll check it out -- thank you!

Melissa

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11/16/17 11:09 P

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Melissa, I forgot to mention: though I suspect you may be well aware of most of the information it contains (cutting edge) I've found this book invaluable:




...may give you some insight into how far you can push the your limitations without undoing any of the hard work.


Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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11/16/17 8:37 P

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Personally, I think you are doing fantastic, though I can appreciate the anxiety of not wanting to undo hard work.

I don't think you can undo all of the hard work with one meal unless even if you go hog-wild on carbs... though doing so may realistically make it harder to resume where you left off... but life is long, this is a process, and every body is different. Yours may be just fine with jumping on/off 'the wagon'. All you can do is test the waters and see how things go.

My own personal strategy in these situations is to eat as much as I want of on-plan foods and just 'sample' the off-plan 'treats'. I also ask for extra butter to add to everything, LOL. It's hard to go too far off plan when you're eating enough fat. More important for me is to avoid all foods that are inflammatory for my body.

I've come to realize that for me this is a lifetime way of eating and that I need to create, become comfortable with, and commit to the idea that there are now foods that I will likely never eat again just because I don't like how I feel, or the resulting metabolic back-lash. I think it's really important to view this as a journey that enhances your life, not one that enslaves your life.

In terms of the slippery downhill slope, I think your mental game is strong, you're very well prepared/knowledgeable, and you have good habits and a plan to nip any temptation to go off the rails in the bud.

...and even if you don't right back into fasting long-term, you'll have had an experience that will support you and inform your choices next time around. Be realistic about your vulnerabilities, and build on your strengths. You've got this!
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Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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11/16/17 7:41 P

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The dinner we're attending will be higher in carbs than I've had in a while. I guess I'm worried that I'll completely undo the "work" I'm doing to repair my insulin receptors. It's just one meal, but it's a heck of a meal!

I'm glad you shared that it's not necessarily easy to do an extended fast -- or to hop onto one on a whim. I understand that in regards to eating well and exercising in general. I seem to be either on or off.

I suppose that's another fear I have -- that I'm focused and doing well, and that one day could send me on a very slippery downhill slope. I think, though, if I can stick with the fast until then, I'll be feeling good enough that I can enjoy Thanksgiving and refocus the next day.

Melissa

All-time highest weight: 304lb

Starting weight: 285 (11/5/2017)
Current weight: 280.1 (11/13/2017)


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11/16/17 7:27 P

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LOL! Those darn holiday temptations!

In terms of consequences, the only specific and easily identifiable one is that you'll be starting over... which is totally fine, but which isn't necessarily as easy as it may seem. In my experience, I don't decide these time lines as much as my body does.

Are you worried about something specific?

As I've said, I've done several long-term fasts, but I've actually attempted many, many more. What I want do, and what my body is willing to get on board for, are often two different things. With each of my long fasts, my fasting goal was actually much longer... the times I did manage were as long as my body was willing to cooperate.

If/when my goal is to fast as long as possible, I'm at the point where if it's going well, I don't mess with it, because if I break my fast even though I'm doing well in a completely fasted state, my body may not get back on board so easily... it's almost like any reintroduction of food/glucose signals/drives the body to 'stock back up' before resubmitting to the fully fasted state.

A sudden significant drop in ketones seems to work against me... which is why I stay away from bone broth when I'm fasting.




Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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11/16/17 5:14 P

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Okay, I have a question for more experienced folks.

Next Thursday is Thanksgiving. I started my extended fast yesterday, so it falls on what would be day 9 of my fast.

I had planned to skip it. Then my husband showed me the flier for what HE is going to do that day... and I'm strongly tempted.

So, question. If I interrupted my fast for Thanksgiving, what would the consequence be?

I would probably start the two weeks OVER the day after.

Melissa

All-time highest weight: 304lb

Starting weight: 285 (11/5/2017)
Current weight: 280.1 (11/13/2017)


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11/14/17 1:36 P

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Isn't that a great article? I love how accessible Mark Sisson makes all of this information. While I don't know if the same would hold true for bone broth, it isn't unreasonable to expect that it might.

...and don't get me wrong... I LOVE bone broth, and I now use it all of the time, just not when I'm fasting, because for me it does drop my ketones significantly, and that's a problem for me when attempting to fast long-term, and it made it very difficult for me to keto-adapt because my insulin response is hair-trigger.

I think it largely depends on what your own personal goals are, what stage of the process you are at, and your own metabolic quirks as to where bone broth (an extremely healthy food) fits into your overall nutritional plan. The only way to know for sure if it's working against you, or not, is to test blood ketones after consuming it.




Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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11/14/17 9:05 A

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Thanks for posting all that, Ramona.

I'm planning on drinking the bone broth only the first couple of days to stave off headaches (which I do get).

I saw whey protein in your list. Mark Sisson just did a post on whey protein that is NOT specifically about its use in a ketogenic diet, but does mention its effect on insulin which might be pertinent:

www.marksdailyapple.com/insu
lin-respon
se-of-whey-and-cancer/


I wonder if bone broth would be the same?

Melissa

All-time highest weight: 304lb

Starting weight: 285 (11/5/2017)
Current weight: 280.1 (11/13/2017)


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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 11,294
11/13/17 6:55 P

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Glad to hear that you found it useful!
emoticon


Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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FABFIT52's Photo FABFIT52 Posts: 330
11/13/17 6:17 P

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Ramona,
Thank you for that information. How interesting. I just read your page from 9/2016--CICO--Keto New Kid on the Block. Wow! I've done a lot of research myself...but wow, that page is so choc-o-block full of Keto gems! How wonderful that you put all of that together in one place & explained each section so well! I, as well as many others I am sure, thank you for taking the time to do this. It is much appreciated!!! emoticon emoticon

Jules
Progress Not Perfection

My journey
2014 down -67 lbs using Medifast, but regained all plus 12 more lbs
7/24/16-5/18/17: down -30.2 lbs (stalled 1/17-5/17) Medifast
5/19/17: recommited to Medifast & tracking macros
10/08/17: Began my Keto journey
4/11/18: Recommitted to Keto


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11/13/17 5:45 P

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Hi everyone!

I found the resource:

Bone Broth is Anti-Ketogenic
zerocarbzen.com/2015/10/15/bo
ne-broth-
is-anti-ketogenic/



The reason that bone broth can interfere with ketosis and thus make fasting harder is because bone broth is full of glucogenic acids. A glucogenic amino acid is an amino acid that can be converted into glucose through gluconeogenesis. The production of glucose from glucogenic amino acids involves these amino acids being converted to alpha keto acids and then to glucose, with both processes occurring in the liver. This mechanism predominates during catabolysis, rising as fasting and starvation increase in severity.

So... the longer you fast, the more predisposed your body is to be on the alert for anything it can convert to glucose.

However (theoretically), once you are keto-adpated (solidly and completely predisposed to burn ketones efficiently and effectively for fuel instead of carbs... and for some people keto-adapting can take a very long time) the potential for bone broth to disrupt ketosis *should* decrease. Anyone who is highly insulin resistant would be more predisposed.

This comment from zerocarbzen:

"This may have been mentioned, I haven’t checked all comments, but glutamine causes gluconeogenesis so that may explain why it affects Ketosis. Whenever I took a glutamine powder supplement for gut healing, I noticed I would “feel” less Ketogenic and I knew it was affecting me adversely. Glycine (which is also in bone broth) also has this effect I believe. Apparently some amino acids are just more easily converted to glucose.

You may find that other pure or high dose amino acid supplements (or foods) can have the same effect. Some examples would include:

-- Bone broth (especially in large amounts and with the fat skimmed off)
-- Collagen Powder
-- Essential Amino Acids
-- Whey Protein Isolate

Also, like glutamine, Alanine can have a profound impact on ketosis. One study titled "The effects of alanine, glucose and starch ingestion on the ketosis produced by exercise and by starvation" found that alanine supplementation knocked the participants out of ketosis as much as pure glucose did."

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/
jp
hysiol.1982.sp014155/pdf




Personally, I do find that bone broth does disrupt my ketosis, and when seeking to fast long-term, I do better if I simply stick to water only.



IT REALLY IS IN YOUR BLOOD: GLUCOSE TO KETONE RATIOS
greymadder.net/2014/09/15/it-
really-is
-in-your-blood-glucose-to-ket
one-r
atios/




Edited by: _RAMONA at: 11/13/2017 (17:47)

Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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FABFIT52's Photo FABFIT52 Posts: 330
11/13/17 11:13 A

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Hello Melissa, Romona & Holly!
Yes, I have Dr Fung's fasting book, which is great! I just loved watching all of his YouTube videos. He is the most informative, down to earth dr! His book is part of the reason I thought that when my spouse & I decide to fast, that we will use bone broth. I think making the drink of ACV & lemon juice with some stevia is an excellent idea for the electrolytes as well during a fast. I am such a researcher & love absorbing knowledge.

Melissa-I will tell you that my wife is also a TII diabetic. She hopped on the Keto wagon due to her BSs being uncontrolled & her dr telling her the next step was insulin. She was already taking the weekly shot of Bydureon & 3 Glipizides per day. Metformin had been discontinued due to intolerance. Her fasting BSs were 250-270 consistently. She tested fasting & 2 hrs after a meal each day to keep a close eye on it. Within 2 weeks of just eating Keto, she was able to stop all diabetic medications & had fasting BSs in the 90's. It has been wonderful to watch her experience this waking up process. She feels better, still has some fatigue from carb withdrawal, but has even mentioned that her joints feel less painful. So...it is my belief that if you are bone broth fasting, this will be a very quick (faster than eating Keto) stabilization of insulin. Keep a close eye on your BSs!

I, on the other hand, am simply IR...big time. I've been eating Keto, not tracking macros, for 5 weeks and am down 1 lb. I will say, I have never been able to maintain like this & feel so satiated. We are going to begin our bone broth fasting 2 days after Thanksgiving. I'm also thinking of doing a fat fast down the line if I plateau again. Maybe if I go between these two types of fasts (fat & bone broth) & continue maintaining on Keto in between, I can drop the rest of this weight. I need to lose around 100 lbs yet.

Jules
Progress Not Perfection

My journey
2014 down -67 lbs using Medifast, but regained all plus 12 more lbs
7/24/16-5/18/17: down -30.2 lbs (stalled 1/17-5/17) Medifast
5/19/17: recommited to Medifast & tracking macros
10/08/17: Began my Keto journey
4/11/18: Recommitted to Keto


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11/13/17 10:16 A

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Melissa, I was a HUGE fan of Dr. Fung long before his books came out... I found his blog about two years ago, and this is what has anchored my journey ever since; and like you, my interest is ketones and in maintaining a low glucose ketone index. I have really high inflammation levels, and a hair-trigger inflammatory response to more things than I seem to be able to keep track of, LOL.

I always feel better, function better and look better when my glucose ketone index is low, and since my body composition visibly changes, I don't worry about the scale. As long as I'm not gaining, I'm content (mostly, LOL) to allow my body to heal first and release the fat as things sort themselves out. it's slow, but my quality of life is so vastly improved that I just can't complain.

I'll be interested to know how your journey goes. There are very few people who are comfortable with longer fasts and talking about it, so this is one area where people really end up on their own.

I need to look it up, and I know Dr. Fung supports anything that keeps you fasting longer, but there is some evidence that bone broth can actually be problematic. If I can find the resource I'll let you know. One thing is for sure, just listen to your body. I have never actually planned my longer fasts... they always start with me simply not being really hungry, and then I stop when my body says "time to eat"... the sensation of hunger does change at that point.

Holler if you need some support, or a friendly ear!
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Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


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11/13/17 9:08 A

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lol when i got my book a while ago, i was totally surpised to have it signed by Jimmy Moore...and even more surprised when i saw it came directly from him...got a smokin deal on it from Amazon...in the "other for more possibly without prime" section. its a great book, and i so wish it worked for me. I went up 4 pounds this last time doing IF 18/6, and when i tried the longer, i went up, too. i am odd..but always have been. Maybe i'll try again sometime..hope it works for you!!!

Holly
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11/13/17 8:09 A

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Thanks for the replies!

Jules, have you read The Complete Guide to Fasting, by Dr. Jason Fung? I read it this weekend, and I highly recommend it! It's the most interesting book I've read in a long time. I learned TONS.

Homemade bone broth is allowed on the fasts, according to Dr. Fung. The salt, he said, may stave off the headaches that many people suffer during the first few days. I haven't tried bone broth yet (during fasting), but I'm making some right now.

Ramona, I don't have to ask if you've read it. I LOVE that quote from Dr. Fung that you have in your sig line! I would love to see dramatic weight loss, but I'm more interested in the ketones. I'm a type II diabetic, and I want to normalize my blood sugar!

I'm going to try my first longer-than-three-day fast beginning this week. I was going to start today, but I couldn't get my chicken thawed, roasted, and turned into bone broth quickly enough. So I'll start tomorrow or Wednesday.

How long? Two weeks max, but since this is my first time doing a long fast like this, I'm prepared to stop when I feel like I need to. It's a journey, not a destination. I'll let you know how it goes!

Melissa

All-time highest weight: 304lb

Starting weight: 285 (11/5/2017)
Current weight: 280.1 (11/13/2017)


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11/12/17 8:07 P

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Fasting stalls me right out. My coach hates it..but he is now doing more research and believes if you have thyroid problems or severe insulin resistance it may be the only way to lose...if you get a chance check out the page Common Sense Keto on Facebook. He's got some really interesting stuff on there...

Holly
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11/12/17 7:11 P

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I've done several longer and long-term water-only fasts (50 hours, 3 days, 6 days, 10 days, 11 days). I feel great during better sleep, high energy, beautiful skin, wonderful sense of well-being), and while I never experience significant weight loss, I do always experience significant health gains and changes in body composition... which is always my goal.


Dr. Jason Fung: "Holy consensus, Batman. With so many 'experts' from Michelle Obama to the USDA to virtually all of the medical professionals (including doctors and dieticians) agreeing that 'Eat Less, Move More' is the way to go, you might think that it is 100% unquestionably true. But here's a queer thought... if we all agree that we know the cure for obesity, and we've spent billions on educations and programs - why are we getting fatter? In other words, why does this 'cure' suck so bad?


 current weight: 135.0 
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11/12/17 6:50 P

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I would like to hear more about this too! I, too, have done IF...pretty much daily. I have yet to do a short 2-3 fast, but would like to hear about long term fasting. I would also like to know if bone broth was used or water only.

Jules
Progress Not Perfection

My journey
2014 down -67 lbs using Medifast, but regained all plus 12 more lbs
7/24/16-5/18/17: down -30.2 lbs (stalled 1/17-5/17) Medifast
5/19/17: recommited to Medifast & tracking macros
10/08/17: Began my Keto journey
4/11/18: Recommitted to Keto


 Pounds lost: 11.4 
0
29.65
59.3
88.95
118.6
50YEARS50MONTHS's Photo 50YEARS50MONTHS SparkPoints: (6,058)
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11/12/17 6:25 P

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Has anyone here tried long-term fasting?

I've done quite a bit of intermittent fasting, and I've fasted for 2 & 3 days. I'd like to try a longer fast.

Anyone with any experience?

Melissa

All-time highest weight: 304lb

Starting weight: 285 (11/5/2017)
Current weight: 280.1 (11/13/2017)


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