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BARBARA_BOO's Photo BARBARA_BOO Posts: 9,794
12/9/10 5:10 P

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All good points,KARENK63. I don't have the answers about that balance, either.

I'm kind of a "live and let live" person. When religion comes between people being able to care about one another, I think there must be some "wrong" on both sides.

Nice to see you. I'm in a rush. Bye for now.
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Boo, Barb, BSue, Queen Legarathien of Nargothrond

"YOU'RE NEVER TOO OLD TO PLAY!"

~Team Leader, Separation of Church and Weight
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
ndividual.asp?gid=2072

~Team Leader, The Darker Side of SparkPeople www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
ndividual.asp?gid=89


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KARENK63's Photo KARENK63 Posts: 1,192
12/9/10 4:52 P

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I've heard of this. It's very Old Testament, and much as the idea of it pains me, it is also a long-standing practice for some groups of Jews who observe more "Old World" traditions.

Something to remember: for some people the Old Testament is still a living document and dictates how they conduct their lives. As utterly disgusting as animal sacrifices are, for this particular group of people this ritual makes sense for them.

It's uncomfortable territory, for sure, and hard to find balance on the line of religious tolerance vs. "this is just wrong." Meaning that I don't have the answers either. :(

One day at a time...


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BARBARA_BOO's Photo BARBARA_BOO Posts: 9,794
9/16/10 2:20 A

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Welcome home.
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Boo, Barb, BSue, Queen Legarathien of Nargothrond

"YOU'RE NEVER TOO OLD TO PLAY!"

~Team Leader, Separation of Church and Weight
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
ndividual.asp?gid=2072

~Team Leader, The Darker Side of SparkPeople www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
ndividual.asp?gid=89


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LMB-ESQ's Photo LMB-ESQ Posts: 12,187
9/15/10 11:02 P

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Hey! Welcome back! emoticon emoticon

***** Laurie in Northeast Ohio *****

Fortunate are you if you love a dog, for that dog will surely love you.

Fly Free my friend.... for only in true freedom can we find our true selves

Treat stressful situations like a dog... If you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away!

Neat Link: The Rules for Being Human rules4humans.com/


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REINEMARGOT's Photo REINEMARGOT Posts: 204
9/15/10 5:42 P

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Hello all :
I am very ( did I say rarely ? ) at a loss for words, written or spoken, but this is an instance where I am not sure what to say.

All I can say I suppose at the moment, is thank you for allowing me to feel as I do, honoring the fact that 30 years is a very long time to endure something, so if I feel strongly it is because of decades of experience, but more important than any of those reasons, for allowing me to feel as I do, and wanting me here just the same.

That is unconditional, and something I know very little about, so it's lovely to experience it now.

Victoria emoticon

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' Oh my God am I here all alone ?, and you know something is happening but you don't know what it is, do you Mr Jones ? ............ Ballad of a Thin Man, Bob Dylan.

'The hardest ones to love are the ones that need it most ' ........Papa Roach

'When choosing between 2 evils, I always chose the one I haven't tried before '.....Mae West




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BARBARA_BOO's Photo BARBARA_BOO Posts: 9,794
9/14/10 4:38 P

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Maybe she'll come back, once she reads this and realizes we are used to talking openly and frankly, in order to promote greater understanding of our different experiences. We're not prone to taking offense, mainly because we know we're among friends.

Because of her experiences, she's especially mindful, I think, of how deeply people can feel hurt by what others say.

None of us ever want what we say to be taken as criticism of a person's belief or non-belief. And we're limited, of course, by not being able to get the nuances available in talking face to face, since all we have are typed characters on a page.

All religions have strange traditions. If a person is IN the religion, they understand it. If they're not, it sounds weird. As Moses has been known to say, "Let my people go."

Come on back, VICKIE. Thanks for going the extra mile to make sure you don't cause disharmony and hurt feelings. It's not necessary, though. We love one another here, even when we rant or ask uncomfortable questions.

We're a mixture of very intelligent people with varied experiences who have sought out this team as a safe spot, a family, where division, one-upsmanship and "always being in the right because of a diety being on our side" is not the norm.

The only religious war we like to fight here is the one between our sabotaging thoughts and our desire to live healthy lives and stop the suffering that our excess weight has caused.
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Hang in there, troops. We are all in this together. May you each be well.

Boo, Barb, BSue, Queen Legarathien of Nargothrond

"YOU'RE NEVER TOO OLD TO PLAY!"

~Team Leader, Separation of Church and Weight
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
ndividual.asp?gid=2072

~Team Leader, The Darker Side of SparkPeople www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
ndividual.asp?gid=89


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LMB-ESQ's Photo LMB-ESQ Posts: 12,187
9/14/10 6:26 A

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Too late... she already left the team :-( Now I feel bad

***** Laurie in Northeast Ohio *****

Fortunate are you if you love a dog, for that dog will surely love you.

Fly Free my friend.... for only in true freedom can we find our true selves

Treat stressful situations like a dog... If you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away!

Neat Link: The Rules for Being Human rules4humans.com/


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CHICKIEPU's Photo CHICKIEPU Posts: 10
9/13/10 11:34 P

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It's an orthodox tradition known as "Kaparot" and is meant to symbolically express recognition of sin and deserve death, but acknowledge that the offeror can be saved if they repent, perform good deeds, and practice charity.

Yes, it's animal sacrifice. It's also religious ritual and tradition. While it's hard to rationalize ritual sacrifice in the modern age, orthodox Jews aren't the only group who engage in such practices.

Vickie, have you thought about approaching someone (after Yom Kippur, of course) to ask about the practice and perhaps try to gain a greater understanding as to why the ritual is still performed? It may not alleviate your disgust, but it may allow you to understand the act from a different perspective.

COFFEEDIVA's Photo COFFEEDIVA Posts: 745
9/13/10 5:01 P

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A local custom, perhaps?

"Do What You Love; the Money Will Follow." (That's the title of a book I love -- and I'm working on getting the gumption to believe it!)


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LMB-ESQ's Photo LMB-ESQ Posts: 12,187
9/13/10 4:48 P

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Why would you feel you have to leave the team? I wasn't offended in the least. Only asking the question, since I had never heard of it.

In fact, I'm more offended by the fact that it actually happens, that in today's supposedly "enlightened" world, people can think that sort of behavior towards animals is acceptable. Whatever the religion. But then, that's why people like us don't follow religion.

Please don't leave the team over this.

***** Laurie in Northeast Ohio *****

Fortunate are you if you love a dog, for that dog will surely love you.

Fly Free my friend.... for only in true freedom can we find our true selves

Treat stressful situations like a dog... If you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away!

Neat Link: The Rules for Being Human rules4humans.com/


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REINEMARGOT's Photo REINEMARGOT Posts: 204
9/13/10 3:57 P

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Unfortunately I have seen it every single year since 1980. I got into a confrontation about it when I was quite young over it all, it goes on every year and will again this weekend.

I was so worried when I made this post that this would happen. Despite my love of honesty and being frank, rather than playing games, I hate being discourteous, offensive or nasty to others. I fear I caused offense, I think perhaps the adult thing to do is leave the team, which I will do, rather than create tension and disharmony with my presence here. I do not believe I can say or do anything that will persuade some here that I am nothing but a small minded Archie Bunker type.

I do not retract anything I said however, nor how I feel. 30 years is a very very long time to endure being treated like a leper and a socil pariah, and I have endured and seen things in this area that do not exist anywhere else.

I apologize if I hurt you or anybody else, that was not my intention.

Take care.

Victoria

Edited by: REINEMARGOT at: 9/13/2010 (15:58)
' Oh my God am I here all alone ?, and you know something is happening but you don't know what it is, do you Mr Jones ? ............ Ballad of a Thin Man, Bob Dylan.

'The hardest ones to love are the ones that need it most ' ........Papa Roach

'When choosing between 2 evils, I always chose the one I haven't tried before '.....Mae West




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LMB-ESQ's Photo LMB-ESQ Posts: 12,187
9/13/10 2:36 P

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You've seen this with your own eyes? I grew up in a Jewish home (not in New York) and I've never heard of this. Snopes doesn't say anything about it either.

***** Laurie in Northeast Ohio *****

Fortunate are you if you love a dog, for that dog will surely love you.

Fly Free my friend.... for only in true freedom can we find our true selves

Treat stressful situations like a dog... If you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away!

Neat Link: The Rules for Being Human rules4humans.com/


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REINEMARGOT's Photo REINEMARGOT Posts: 204
9/12/10 11:37 P

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Oh dear, after the chicken thing, that is almost as bad. Last year they did not stop singing, and bear in mind everything here is in quadruple stereo as there are no other groups in the area apart from me and my Dad, until nearly 4am. 10 days of it.

It is will begin by next week. sigh .............

' Oh my God am I here all alone ?, and you know something is happening but you don't know what it is, do you Mr Jones ? ............ Ballad of a Thin Man, Bob Dylan.

'The hardest ones to love are the ones that need it most ' ........Papa Roach

'When choosing between 2 evils, I always chose the one I haven't tried before '.....Mae West




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CASSIES's Photo CASSIES Posts: 1,376
9/12/10 11:01 P

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Wow, that's a new one to me. I live here in NYC and am always intrigued by the Jewish Holidays, but this one beats all. I will have to look into it further. My personal favorite is Sukot, when they put up the tents outside of their homes. I drive around flushing and to see them them.


�The more we witness our emotional reactions and understand how they work, the easier it is to refrain.� ― Pema Ch�dr�n



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REINEMARGOT's Photo REINEMARGOT Posts: 204
9/12/10 9:48 P

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Now I can see you all looking at the title of this thread and saying ' Vickie has lost it now ! '.

I promise this will be my last rant because if I do any more ranting about Boro Park, Brooklyn, the team will compel me to change my user name to ' One Trick Pony ' or ' The Whiner '.

Every year around this time, there is an event that takes place that is not only insane, but very abusive to animals, something I can not tolerate on any level.

The residents of this area have their day of atonement ( Yom Kippur ) and part of what they do is order in stacks and stacks of chickens and they remain in their crates. Sit down please for this.
They pay a fee for their male offspring ( and they all have between 6- 15 kids each ) say some sort of atonement/confessional prayer, then a chicken is taken from the crate, held upside down by his feet, spun around and around the males heads, and they seriously believe that all their sins are now transferred into the chicken.
Cough cough cough ............

How offensive can you get ? Why would some poor animal be required to take on your sins ? How can anybody in 2010 actually practice such midieval hocus pocus, to say nothing of cruelty to animals.
They are all killed afterwards and eaten, sins and all apparently.

Ok, I am done. I am highly sensitive to people who feel being tolerant at all costs is the way to be. I see no reason why one should be tolerate to such things, and on top of that being so abusive to people of every other race, culture and religion.

Stick a fork in me, I am done.

BB ! Yep, I got a book in me waiting to be written. My hairdresser said to me just the other day, that my life must be made into a film and he wanted Kate Winslet to play me !! emoticon emoticon

' Oh my God am I here all alone ?, and you know something is happening but you don't know what it is, do you Mr Jones ? ............ Ballad of a Thin Man, Bob Dylan.

'The hardest ones to love are the ones that need it most ' ........Papa Roach

'When choosing between 2 evils, I always chose the one I haven't tried before '.....Mae West




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