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ARCHIMEDESII's Photo ARCHIMEDESII SparkPoints: (203,819)
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6/28/18 5:55 A



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VAL,

To save money on veg, check your local farmer's market. I bought a huge bunch of kale for $2. It made 8 salads this week. How long does it take you to finish a bag of spinach ? It takes me two salads. That is how much spinach or kale or any other green I will use in my salads. Yes, I go through a ton of greens, but I suspect so does URBANR.

To make that bunch of kale last, I add some "bulk" by including a couple of cups of red cabbage. a head of cabbage is cheap and can last me a week.

The point is that if you want to increase fiber, you need to eat more fiber. And you wont increase your calories that much if you make your salads with 2-3 cups of spinach instead of one cup. I ate a giant salad for breakfast. I'll be eating one for lunch too.

And not to get TMI, but if you are getting enough green veg, your poop will be green. :)



URBANREDNEK Posts: 2,237
6/27/18 5:04 P

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You're definitely eating the right healthy vegetables and fruits - just not enough of them! Especially with the leafy greens (lettuce of all types and spinach especially - and also cabbage and kale), it takes at least 3-4 cups to give you a reasonable amount of fibre and other nutrients.

A quick rough day that would give you all of the natural fibre and nutrients while staying with moderate carb intake, would be more like:

Breakfast: 2 cups chopped mushrooms, 1/2 cup diced onion, 1 cup of raw spinach sauteed in 1 tsp of olive oil and scrambled with 2 large eggs, served with an orange on the side (Calories=314; Fat=15g; Protein=20g; Carbs=29g; Fibre=7g)

Snack 1: 1/2 cup unpacked 2% cottage cheese with 1 Tbsp of flaxseed and 1 cup of raspberries (Calories=216; Fat=8g; Protein=16g; Carbs=22g; Fibre=11)

Lunch: Salad made with 1 cup chopped cabbage, 1 cup fresh spinach, 1/4 cup diced celery, 1/2 cup cherry tomatoes, 1/4 cup shredded carrots, topped with 3oz salmon and a dressing of 1/2 Tbsp olive oil / 1 Tbsp balsamic vinegar
(Calories=285; Fat=13g; Protein=26g; Carbs=15g; Fibre=6g)

Dinner: 3oz of roasted boneless, skinless chicken breast with 1/2 cup cooked broccoli and 1/2 cup cooked cauliflower topped with 1/4 cup cheese sauce
(Calories=264; Fat=11g; Protein=28g; Carbs=12g; Fibre=5g)

Snack #2: 1/2 cup of plain, whole milk yoghurt mixed with 1 Tbsp of unsweetened cocoa powder, 1 cup of sliced strawberries, and 1/3 oz of walnuts
(Calories=196; Fat=12g; Protein=7g; Carbs=22g; Fibre=7g)

For the full day: Calories=1275; Fat=59g; Protein=97g; Carbs=100g; Fibre=36g (which is 40% fats, 30% protein, 30% carbs)

As you can see - a fair amount more of each type of vegetable, but still doesn't take you too high in carbs or calories. When you aren't including grains (they are the "easy" fibre source!), then you really do need to get in a lot more servings of vegetables and fruits over and above the suggested "5 per day".

Hopefully this gives you some inspiration to play around with your favourites to see what sort of options you would enjoy putting in to your regular menu rotations.

Edited by: URBANREDNEK at: 6/27/2018 (17:07)
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SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/27/18 1:34 P

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Yesterday, as an example, I had a cup of mixed salad with double carrots.
Strawberries, probably 6 whole.
Cauliflower about 1 cup
Green beans about 1 cup.
2 stalks of celery.
Today- I will have celery, salad mix, tomatoes, strawberries, an orange.
these are typical days for me, some days I have cucumber in my salad, I add spinach to most salads, eggs, sometimes I even have spinach mixed up with meatsauce.
I always buy bagged spinach and sometimes I have asparagus, broccoli. But my fiber never goes over 25 a day, and that is with the fiber mix.
So, I guess I am eating healthy veggies. I even add fruit sometimes knowing its going to push my carb intake.
But like I told my friends doing the keto plan, I cant, I wont give up oranges, sorry, I just love them too much.

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6/27/18 10:46 A



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Good catch, URBANR !

I misread the information. That fiber count was for a cup of boiled spinach. oops.

However, after doing a "google" search, this is what I found for the amount of fiber in one cup of raw spinach.

Calories 7

% Daily Values*
Total Fat 0.12g 0%
Saturated Fat 0.019g 0%
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.05g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.003g
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 24mg 1%
Potassium 167mg
Total Carbohydrate 1.09g 0%
Dietary Fiber 0.7g 3%
Sugars 0.13g
Protein 0.86g

Because spinach doesn't have a lot of fiber, I add other types of greens and veggies to increase fiber content as well as taste. While I do have just spinach salads, my breakfast/lunch salads do tend to be a mix of greens and veggies. Doing that allows me to get a variety of nutrients.

Val, if you don't like eating raw veggies, why not try them cooked ? As you've seen a cup of boiled spinach has 2.4 grams of fiber. ;) One thing I've noticed is that the health experts who encourage people to eat a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle also recommend eating cooked and raw veggies.

Edited by: ARCHIMEDESII at: 6/27/2018 (10:52)
URBANREDNEK Posts: 2,237
6/27/18 9:28 A

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@ARCHIMEDESII

While I absolutely agree with you that getting in natural fibre from greens is all about volume, I would love to know where you got the information that there is 4.8g of fibre in a cup of spinach.

The database here shows:

Spinach, fresh
Serving Size: 1 cup
Amount Per Serving

Calories 6.9
Total Fat 0.1 g
Saturated Fat 0.0 g
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.0 g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.0 g
Cholesterol 0.0 mg
Sodium 23.7 mg
Potassium 167.4 mg
Total Carbohydrate 1.1 g
Dietary Fiber 0.7 g
Sugars 0.1 g
Protein 0.9g

The information at nutritiondata.self.com agrees with this, as does the USDA listing.

While I used to love huge salads (I go by weight, figure on 80g per "serving", and would plan salads as having at least 3 "servings" of leafy greens, along with at least another 2-3 "servings" of other higher-fibre vegetables, meats, and fats), I found that I rarely got over 6g of fibre from them unless I added at least a couple of servings of broccoli and cauliflower in there as well. Avocado can be a great high-fibre addition, but I'm not a big fan of it so don't usually remember to mention it ;)

For more fibre / serving, I find berries and some fruits (raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, and even oranges) give a better "bang for the buck" --- and can work well with moderate to low carb approaches.

As you mentioned, though, it does take a lot of "servings" to get in the recommended fibre amount, which is why I always get in at least 8 and usually closer to 12 per day.

Sir Terry Pratchett:

"Science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good."


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6/27/18 5:50 A



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VAL,

How much spinach are you eating ? When I eat a salad, I typically eat 4-6 cups of veggies. the container I use for lunch is six cups. I fill it to the top with veggies.

Let's say you're eating one cup of spinach in your salads. One cup of spinach has 4.8 grams of fiber. so, if you want to ensure you getting enough fiber in your diet, it means you need to eat at least 3-4 cups of spinach. That will give you about 15-20 grams of fiber. Keeping in mind, most Americans barely get 10 grams of fiber from the food they eat.

one cup of cabbage = 2.2 grams
one cup of kale = 2.6 grams
one cup of collards = 1.4 grams
one cup of strawberries = 2.9 grams

As you can see, in order to get in 20-30 grams of fiber, a person should be eating at least 6-9 servings of fresh fruit and veggies. If you're diabetic and need to watch your sugar intake, then you eat extra servings of veggies. I do eat a ton of veggies, 6-10 cups per day is not unusual for me.



EOWYN24241's Photo EOWYN24241 Posts: 865
6/27/18 1:09 A

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Carbs are your brain's preferred source of fuel. Not getting enough carbs will make you crabby and grouchy. Just eat the right carbs : veggies, fruits, whole grains, seeds, nuts. Nothing processed like pastries, cookies, biscuits. You get my drift?

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SLIMMERKIWI's Photo SLIMMERKIWI SparkPoints: (262,897)
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6/26/18 11:17 P



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ARCH - funny thing is, I find it harder to get my fibre when I eat salads, even with higher fibre ingredients. I think in part it is because I tend to eat a larger quantity of veges when they are cooked (mostly al dente). Also, when I eat salads I find myself quite hungry in just over an hour, than when I eat cooked. It's funny how different bodies react in different ways. My salad meal might be around 600 calories whereas my cooked meal is usually 100 less.

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SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/26/18 10:49 P

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Thanks for the info about fiber. I eat salads nearly daily, and I eat alot of spinach, I cut it up into eggs for breakfast, have it with salad, sometimes just roll it up with a piece of turkey. but when I track it on sp, it doesnt seem to show that it adds up to give me the fiber number I need to reach.
Today, i had celery, salad mix with carrots and red cabbage, strawberries, green beans AND fiber powder and according to SP nutrition tracker I still only tracked about 17 grams of fiber. So, am I doing something wrong???
I havent had any issues with staying regular, I dont feel like my diet is lacking fiber for that reason, but just going by what SP suggests I eat daily.
I used to add alot of beans to foods, but trying to keep carb count low and get fiber from beans doesnt mesh. I think I would prefer the beans.

Edited by: SOFT_VAL67 at: 6/26/2018 (22:52)
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6/26/18 6:25 P



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Hey, Val !

I'm not here to talk carbs, but I am here to talk FIBER. I don't need to take a fiber supplement. I get all my fiber needs from the food I eat.

One simple way to increase your fiber intake is to eat salads with lots of dark leafy greens. Think kale, spinach, kolrabi, swiss chard, romaine lettuce, arugula (rocket), red cabbage, brusselle sprouts, etc. Leafy greens can be chopped up into salads or even soups/stews.

My salads are loaded with tons of dark greens. You can eat a ton of spinach for next to no calories. And if kale is too high fiber, try baby kale or baby spinach. The farmer's markets are starting to pop up for the summer. That's where I bought the
kolhrabi and kale. I bought a head of red cabbage at the market. Broccoli. Eating it raw can be hard on a person's stomach. what you do is blanch it for about 5 minutes to soften it up a little. let it cool, chop it up and mix into your salads.

Eat more beans. I add beans to my salads like chick peas or black beans. They add flavor and fiber.

I eat a couple of big salads each day. I prefer eating salads in the summer because I don't want to turn on the oven. In the winter, I make a great vegetable stew made with squash and yams. both high in fiber and nutrient dense. Some times I'll make a lentil soup.

So, if you are looking to ditch the fiber supplement, start eating salads with dark leafy greens like kale, spinach.

I do not have problems "going" if that's your worry about not getting enough fiber. If you're eating plenty of dark greens, you wont have any bathroom issues and you may even notice your weight decrease.


Edited by: ARCHIMEDESII at: 6/26/2018 (18:35)
SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/26/18 4:53 P

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Thanks for the info Urbanredneck, I will def check out that link and those recipes and find ways to add fiber to my diet. I do well to keep at a certain calorie count and carb count, most days I dont worry if I go over carbs by a little, because I rarely ever go over 160, I have stayed well under 100 lately. So, adding that extra fiber is the most important thing.

URBANREDNEK Posts: 2,237
6/26/18 4:39 P

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Wow, that kinda boggles my mind! It takes a ton more work and thinking for me to come up with low fibre food choices than it does to go high fibre. So many individual quirks with foods :)

Seriously, the Keto Bread from the dietdoctor.com site has 9g of fibre (almond flour and psyllium) all by itself --- so if you include one serving of it with something like salmon salad and a side of cooked sugar snap peas and carrots, then you'll be at 14g of fibre for that meal alone. A serving each of broccoli and cauliflower with dinner adds another 5g of fibre, a couple of small oranges as a snack gives you 3g of fibre, and it would only take 4g more to hit your goal (so - have a serving each of onions and mushrooms and peppers in with your morning eggs, or have a serving of avocado on a low-carb tortilla, and add a Tbsp of flaxseed along with some raspberries to some yogurt or cottage cheese).

I'm a bit of fibre fanatic (as I'm sure you've guessed!), so feel free to drop me a note if you want to chat about food choices and where you can add more fibre without getting carried away on carbs.

Sir Terry Pratchett:

"Science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good."


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SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/26/18 3:00 P

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That is the biggest struggle for me in trying to stay on a low carb plan is getting fiber and even if I choose to eat the fruits and veggies and increase my carbs, I still dont get that much fiber. I am for 26 per day but almost never get that much. Even with supplements I get under 20 most days.

URBANREDNEK Posts: 2,237
6/26/18 1:35 P

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For what I consider to be some good base definitions, along with some great recipes, I suggest checking out: www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb

The dietdoctor site bases their definitions on NET carbs (Total carbs minus fibre), but there are others who only consider Total carbs and who then define Keto as being under 20 total carbs per day.

Personally, I need 35-45g of fibre per day for my body to function properly (I am a colon cancer survivor), and I have no medical need to limit my overall carb intake. I also find that trying to balance macros based on "g per day" is more frustrating than helpful, since my calorie intake varies widely on a daily basis (from 1850-2800, depending on activity and hunger levels) --- so I find the ratios to be more useful. With that in mind, I most often naturally end up around 40-45% carbs, with a fairly even split between fats and protein. On a lower eating day, that comes out around 200g total carbs (160g net) --- while it could be over 300g on a higher eating day. I generally have 8-12 "servings" of vegetables and fruits, even on the lower eating days.

I choose to not limit my choices of fruits or vegetables due to carb content, and I still enjoy whole grains almost daily. I do, however, minimize added sugars and incorporate a lot of "low carb" and even "keto" recipes purely because I enjoy them. I like the Keto Bread recipe from thedietdoctor site and use it a few times per week, and also do some tweaks of it for "muffins", and quite enjoy the low carb "flatbread" options. I love using nuts instead of flour for a lot of baking and cooking options, incorporate a lot of psyllium fibre in my baking (for extra fibre when necessary), and tend towards higher fat meat / poultry / fish / dairy options (for the better flavour and higher nutrition).

Kudos for recognizing where you are willing to experiment and where you draw the line! Keeping fruits in the diet is reasonable if you don't have a medical reason to avoid them, and full-fat milk and dairy choices should also be able to fit in just fine. For fibre, I'd suggest trying out the Keto Bread recipe and other recipes that use psyllium husk, and also see about including more avocado, flaxseed, hemp hearts, and chia seeds (which give healthy fats along with high fibre). Raspberries and blackberries also give a lot of great natural fibre, and work well to sweeten baked items or other desserts.

I think your goal of up to 150g per day of total carbs sounds both healthy and realistic --- and shouldn't be overwhelmingly difficult and frustrating to stick with! Once you've gotten comfortable there, then you can always assess to decide if you want to take it lower or stay where you're at.

Good luck - and remember to have fun with your choices!

Sir Terry Pratchett:

"Science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good."


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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 17,664
6/26/18 10:41 A

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I'm with @SLIMMERKIWI That tends to be my carb range as well.

I couldn't imagine cutting out something as wholesome as fruit. Fruit is nature's candy.

I also need carbs. I am hypoglycemic withOUT diabetes. So low to no carbs for me. Is a bad idea.



SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/26/18 10:34 A

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Thanks James, and everyone else who commented, I really appreciate everyones opinions and advice.
I just couldnt, didnt want to do keto. I see success claims from friends and I am happy for them, but for me, there are a few things I dont see as healthy to give up, like fruits...I like strawberries and oranges and I like a mango from time to time.
Milk is one thing I have daily, although I have cut back and I will try the almond milk.
If I can stay around 120 to 150 a day I feel I am doing pretty good.
This week I am aiming for a little lower, hoping to stay under 100.
The whole fiber situation is hard for me, I try to get my fiber powder mixed in with water or milk, or even coffee thru out the day, but that and the little bit of fruits and veggies I eat only get me to about 20 grms per day and that is pushing it. I am just happy not to be eating junk food, no bread, no pasta, no sweets. I am searching for alternatives to sweets....so fruit, mashing up some strawberries or half a peach in with my cottage cheese gives me a little sweet flavoring....then it adds carbs....so which way do you go. Right now though I feel I am doing pretty good.

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6/26/18 9:24 A

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WIkipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate
says this on that page:
"Carbohydrates are a common source of energy in living organisms; however, no single carbohydrate is an essential nutrient in humans. Humans are able to obtain all of their energy requirement from protein and fats ..."

So its as low as you want to go. I consider these ranges:

250 or more grams of carbs per day pretty "typical"

150 sort of range is where folks are trying to cut sugar and bread. It is lower, but I think it is just not excessive refined carbs, like not excessive sugar and wheat

80 to 100 range is low carb

20 to 30 grams a day is Keto or Ketogenic range. This is very very low carb. It is possible because if you have a two egg omelette with cheese for breakfast that is about 4 grams of carbs. So the carbs slowly click by with this way of eating. Some guidelines suggest 30 grams of fibre a day, so this can't be done in this range, but then again some guidelines suggest 200 grams of carbs a day yet Wikipedia says they aren't essential.

But those are my ranges. Of course it is just grams of carbs, so the ranges can blur together. So to recap:

250 (or more) - typical
150 - cutting out very refined carbs
80 to 100 - low carb
20 to 30 - Keto

Edited by: -JAMES- at: 6/26/2018 (09:25)
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6/26/18 5:44 A



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Low carb means different things to different people. A lot of people will try low carb and find it really drains their energy, but others don't seem to have much of a problem with it. My 'low carb' days are around 160 and my high days are over 210, so I tend to be 'middle of the road'

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6/26/18 4:22 A

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low carbs means very little energy

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6/26/18 1:41 A

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If you are unsure, go to a real dietitian who sees you and knows your health issues, and can help you decide what works for YOU.

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6/25/18 9:39 P

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Val...for more fiber, check out hempseed, flaxseed, raspberries/blackberries, and avocados.... And, if you want to lower your milk carbs just a bit, mix in some almond milk.

My "Lower Carb" journey started some years ago when a Registered Dietician got me to work down to 45 carb/meal and 15/snack. Remembering how I used to eat, this was quite a drop!! After all, my typical breakfast was a bowl of cereal, a banana and a glass of milk: round about 75 carbs. Not bad food---just too many carbs at one time for my pre-diabetes...!! In the years since, my current doctor encourages me to aim for less than 120 net: 25-30 per meal and 10-15 per snack. Most days I am paying attention, I come close to that.... There are other days I am higher, but usually when I've biked 25 miles or hiked 4-6miles, so its a "happy place" for me.

Interestingly, my doctor actually eats VLC....20-30 per day... choosing to control his diabetes this way. He will support patients who want to do that, but has found it very difficult for most people to sustain.
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SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/25/18 9:00 P

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My carb intake for the day was 84. I thought that wasnt so bad until I read what some others eat. And that was really watching what I ate. I guess milk, strawberries and my fiber powder mix added up. I thought that was pretty good. Yes, I could give up the milk to lower my carb intake, but honestly I wont.
I like milk.


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6/25/18 7:28 P

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Low carb for me is under 20. I aim for that, sometimes I pass it by but I try to keep it low.

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SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/25/18 7:23 P

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I have a friend doing Keto and he told me the other day his carbs for the day were 7. I said, how is that even possible. I guess it is, but wow!!
I thought I was doing pretty fair staying around 100 or less. Give or take a few daily.
My biggest problem is finding ways to get enough fiber.
I love oranges, those are something I find difficult to cut out.
Well, I just decided I love milk and oranges and I cant give them up.

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6/25/18 7:15 P

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I followed a low carb plan with meal supplements from a doctor supervised program. I lost 93 lbs. Now in maintenance, I still eat low carb. For me, that means no bread, pasta or starchy veggies. Very little fruit because, sadly, fruit is sugar and sugar = carbs.



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GRAMCRACKER46's Photo GRAMCRACKER46 Posts: 1,812
6/25/18 7:06 P

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My husband limits himself to 50-60 grams of carbs. He’s doing Atkins.

I try to keep my carbohydrates at 100 net carbs but find that is hard. Net carbs are carbs minus fiber.

Edited by: GRAMCRACKER46 at: 6/25/2018 (19:44)
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read the INGREDIENTS!

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SOFT_VAL67's Photo SOFT_VAL67 Posts: 3,020
6/25/18 5:04 P

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just wondering what do you consider low carb??
this isnt to follow anyone elses plan.
just opinions.
I am not asking this to try to get anyone to TELL me how many carbs to eat.
I guess it is different for everyone, but I am just wondering what you consider a low carb plan?

Edited by: SOFT_VAL67 at: 6/25/2018 (17:47)
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