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HMARQUETTE SparkPoints: (43,131)
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11/30/12 3:16 P

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So a couple of days ago, the Wall Street Journal ran another article about long distance endurance training & negative effects. In case you're interested I added a link below (not sure if you have to have an account but can probably google it or see a repost).

Personally, I plan to run around 20 miles a week except during marathon training (and my regular pace is 8-10 minutes per mile). Also I'm not on the older end of the spectrum and in good health, so I think my running is in line with what the article views as safe/beneficial.

My reaction is that the studies don't seem to have enough data to convince me that any of their guidelines are really applicable to me (are there that many fast older ultramarathoners that would participate in a study?), but there probably is a line somewhere where the exercise becomes "unhealthy". But maybe for those runners, the running is more important than the loss of "health".

Here is a link to the article:
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127
88
7323330604578145462264024472.html



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LDRICHEL's Photo LDRICHEL Posts: 1,731
9/12/12 9:13 A

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Very helpful to read all of this! I'm a little late to the game. Haha. Thank you so much, everyone!

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ACICEDA's Photo ACICEDA Posts: 534
6/1/12 1:52 P

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This disucssion has put a smile on my face. Thanks for all the great inputs (from original article) to all those motivational books and yes even the next study to read.

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RUN4FOOD's Photo RUN4FOOD Posts: 1,416
5/4/12 2:04 P

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Her's that next study: health.yahoo.net/news/s/hsn/joggers-
li
ve-longer-study-says


Just read the summary, maybe running is good for us.
I hope so.

Gary


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JULMUT's Photo JULMUT SparkPoints: (20,952)
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5/4/12 12:24 P

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RUNNER_MOM_OF4 -- I totally agree with you... nice post!

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
-James Dean

If you have to tell someone how bad you want it, then you haven't shown them how hard you already work for it.
-John Mayer

Whether you get what you want isn't what defines you. It's how you go about your business.
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RENZRYD's Photo RENZRYD SparkPoints: (63,283)
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5/3/12 11:24 P

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Best thing about studies is that if you blink three times and then hold your breath for five seconds, there will be a new study to contradict the first study and so forth. ;)
-Renee

I want to STOP Shopping While Fat, it is no fun!
Someday soon, I want to be a Former Fat Person.

2012 Goal is to finish my first Half-Marathon. (DONE) 10/7/12 3:24:26
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(DONE)
2014 Goal finish 3 Half Marathons, and my house! And get a Sub 3 HR!

* Drink 8 Glasses of water minimum!
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RUN4FOOD's Photo RUN4FOOD Posts: 1,416
5/2/12 9:50 P

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Thanks for the original post and for all of the comments. This is one of the most useful chats I have seen on SP. I've personally run about a dozen halves and a dozen full marathons. I always have taken to a very slow build up. My last marathon took me 15 months of training. It will be interesting to see what becomes of this research. I think it's great that all this attention is being paid to endurance training. It will help all of us have better health in the long run.

Nancy, I really appreciate your professional input.


Gary


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VISHYT's Photo VISHYT Posts: 94
4/12/12 6:08 A

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Great post- I enjoyed reading all the discussion and checking out the links. I'm really grateful for Coach Nancy's perspective on this and for all the alternate viewpoints. My ultimate goal is to run the half marathon in October. That seemed like such a long distance to me, and I know now that I definitely need to respect even that distance.

Dance like it hurts,
Love like you need money,
Work when people are watching.
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JTAYLOR2011's Photo JTAYLOR2011 Posts: 691
3/28/12 4:46 P

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Right on Runner Mom!

Here's a link to a related article on a study that was done on Tour de France athletes.
Extreme exercise: Tour de France cyclists live longer
sweatscience.com/extreme-exercise-to
ur
-de-france-cyclists-live-longer/


Edited by: JTAYLOR2011 at: 3/28/2012 (16:47)
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SCHOOLNURSE86's Photo SCHOOLNURSE86 Posts: 870
3/28/12 3:23 P

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"That has nothing to do with running itself. Human beings, 3 million years ago, had two things that made us more successful than the ape -- our brains, and our ability to run efficiently on two legs. Don't let anyone tell you that we're not "made to run," because that's exactly what our bodies were made for. Just because our diets and our lifestyles made running inconvenient or challenging doesn't mean that it's unnatural. And just because some people push themselves to dangerous extremes and don't respect their bodies when THEY run doesn't mean that we can't run long in a spirit of health and wholeness"

I agree. We have become such a fat, sedentary society...but the generations before us had to rely on their FEET to get from point A to point B. They didn't have garmins and race gear, but they had common sense to know when to slow down, when to rest, and when to kick booty.

Mary


"I just felt like running." Forrest Gump
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3/25/12 4:36 P

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I agree Robyn !

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ROBYNLN's Photo ROBYNLN Posts: 661
3/25/12 4:13 P

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Great post, BTVMADS. You made some really good points that I need to remind myself of.

Robyn

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13

"Pain is temporary. It may last a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a year, but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If i quit, however, it lasts forever..That surrender, even the smallest act of giving up, stays with me" Lance Armstrong

"It doesn't get easier, you get better."



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BTVMADS's Photo BTVMADS Posts: 983
3/25/12 8:30 A

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I just read this whole thread and I am so relieved that everyone read with a critical, thoughtful, and reflective mind.

My first HM was the Philadelphia Half and Full Marathon last November. Two marathoners died at that race, and it was said that both of them would have gone home that day if they had slowed down when they started feeling pain and checked in with medical staff. Instead, they pushed themselves too hard, didn't fuel properly, and ran until they collapsed. The distance did not kill them or hurt their hearts. It was the fact that they ignored their bodies' warning signs and thought the time goal was more important than their health.

People do that all the time -- push themselves too hard because they're so obsessed with a time goal. Most of those people don't die, but they're the ones whose ITBs are always having problems, or who run with what they think are shin splints but are really stress fractures. And that's because they're prioritizing all kinds of external motivators (Boston Qualifying, prizes, medals) over the internal motivators (health, stress relief, the joy we can find in the running community).

That has nothing to do with running itself. Human beings, 3 million years ago, had two things that made us more successful than the ape -- our brains, and our ability to run efficiently on two legs. Don't let anyone tell you that we're not "made to run," because that's exactly what our bodies were made for. Just because our diets and our lifestyles made running inconvenient or challenging doesn't mean that it's unnatural. And just because some people push themselves to dangerous extremes and don't respect their bodies when THEY run doesn't mean that we can't run long in a spirit of health and wholeness.

"If you don't take care of your body, where will you live?"

"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard everybody would do it. It's the hard that makes it great."


DRPOOH63's Photo DRPOOH63 Posts: 3,567
3/24/12 1:53 P

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Great info, great discussion. This is what Spark is all about. It really is about paying attention to your body and taking appropriate care of it.

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JTAYLOR2011's Photo JTAYLOR2011 Posts: 691
3/21/12 10:47 P

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Mercola is not a trustworthy source, period. I think the debate is far from over and very complex.

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JENN03275's Photo JENN03275 SparkPoints: (33,101)
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3/19/12 2:01 P

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@ POSTDOCFROMSF: I know for certain that when I push the training too hard, I get a flair up. It is rather bothersome. However, I am not going to just "lay down" and let it win. I am sure you feel the same way. We just need to work with the cards we were dealt and show others who use it as an excuse that they are wrong and this can be done!

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POSTDOCFROMSF's Photo POSTDOCFROMSF Posts: 139
3/19/12 1:42 A

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I am just now recovering from a very bad flare up of asthma and fibromyalgia. I got sick in January. I could not train at all in February. I would start training, I would get sick again, and I would have to stop.

I began my week one 13.2 training schedule last week. I have changed my goal from a 13.2 race in June to a 13.2 race in September. If I have to change it again, if I have to slow my pace of training to keep from triggering my symptoms, I will do it. I am using race training to motivate me to stay on my health regimen. It is about the process for me.

Check out this book, "The Long Run" by Matt Long, an NYFD fire fighter who overcame losing a leg to run a marathon. http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Run-ebook/d
p/B0046A8SA4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=13
32135422&sr=8-2

"It is not the power of the curse, it is the power you give to the curse." -- From "Penelope" by Leslie Caveny ninamatsumoto.wordpress.com/2010/12/
18/athletic-body-diversity-reference-f
or-artists/#wpcom-carousel-1869
tinyurl.com/6pldo89


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3/18/12 8:12 P

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I didn't read the article. I want to run a Marathon but no real reason, I just want to. However, I have been questioning myself on becoming a distance runner, as I find I have such a difficult time increasing distance. I do have 3 autoimmune issues (celiac, Myofascial Pain Syndrome and Lyme), so I wonder if this makes my increasing mileage more difficult. My MD is aware that I am running and my goals.

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SCAREWALDORF's Photo SCAREWALDORF SparkPoints: (59,892)
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3/18/12 9:06 A

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Having read the article and what Coach Nancy has to say, I have NOT been put off doing a full marathon. However, Coach makes a good point in that I need to think more about RESPECTING the distance. So, I'm more prepared to wait to do it. Give my body time to recover and fix up.

Also, I agree with what other people say, this does look like a marketing ploy.

SHORTY20's Photo SHORTY20 Posts: 7,138
2/16/12 9:27 A

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Thanks for your input Nancy!

Be fearless.
You only fail when you stop trying.
"The cure to anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." - Isak Dinesen

5K PR: 25:28 (Nov. 09)
5 Mile Race PR: 44:36 (Dec. 2011)
10K PR - 58:03 (Oct. 09)
15K PR - 1:29:59 (Apr. 2011)
Half Marathon PR - 2:03:39 (Apr. 12)
Marathon PR - 4:48:55 (May 2011)
TECHMOM17's Photo TECHMOM17 Posts: 34
1/26/12 4:33 P

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Just my opinion, but I'm not a big fan of Mercola. I don't find a lot of the information he puts out to be reasonable.

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1/26/12 12:24 P

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Read the book Born to Run...

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
-James Dean

If you have to tell someone how bad you want it, then you haven't shown them how hard you already work for it.
-John Mayer

Whether you get what you want isn't what defines you. It's how you go about your business.
-Scott Jurek






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CBAILEYC's Photo CBAILEYC Posts: 3,823
1/26/12 12:13 P

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It's an interesting article. It does feel like a sales pitch, in a sense, for the website/doctor/etc., and that's fine. I agree any research and findings can be taken and skewed in such a way as to support someone's hypothesis and position.

Something I'm busy learning on my Spark journey here is
emoticon ALL things in moderation emoticon
Be it running, eating, Zumba'ing, sleeping, Zombies, or puppies! (Yea, I'm in a particular/peculiar frame of mind lately!)

You can have and/or do ANYTHING you want, as long as you do it in reasonable amounts. For me, training for and running a Half is reasonable. I respect Marathoners to the utmost level, but right now it's not something that I desire for myself.
C~

Candy~
Portland, OR

SparkPortland Co-leader
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/g
roups_individual.asp?gid=12356


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1/26/12 11:50 A

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John,

That is not quite the reason why elite athletes don't run more than 1-2 marathons a year...remember it is not unheard of these athletes running 200 miles or more a week. They have the stamina and endurance, but this is their job. Many don't have to hold full-time jobs, take care of a family, run errands, etc. Their job is to run...they take lots of recovery naps and eat the best diet they can.

Any time we overload our body is when we cause our body to shift gears. Running slow does NOT ensure a lower risk of inflammation. The body is simply not designed to run 26.2 miles...that doesn't mean it can't, but you must decide if the physiological risk outweigh the psychological benefit.

Just something to think about...

Nancy

FREEDOMSTAR's Photo FREEDOMSTAR Posts: 13,801
1/26/12 10:42 A

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Nancy- emoticon Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

One point that made me go for it, was elite runners are running at high speeds and giving it 100% effort and that's why they do 1-2 per year. I thought (and peer runners) if Im going at a long Slow run pace, and doing all my walk intervals, I can do it without the risk. I wore my HRM and when my HR went up I slowed down the pace. This would stop it from being a health risk?




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1/25/12 11:40 P

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I will say that the article does reference some of the most prestigious research journals which doesn't make it bogus information. For quite some time, I have read numerous studies regarding high inflammatory markers in marathon runners...some levels as high as those who had suffered a MI. That being said, you must keep your doctor in the loop. But sadly many doctors are not even aware of the risk that marathon training can cause in the body.

While a doc may do a simple EKG which only shows past issues or arrhythmia abnormalities, how many of us have had a full-blown cardiac stress test before we took up running? And even if you did, it only shows where you are at this point in your life.

My theory is, we have too many people who do not respect the distance of running, much less training for a marathon. When elite athletes only run 1 or 2 a year that speaks volumes...It make me cringe to read amateur runners doing one marathon after the other. If you understand the physiological changes that occur within the body, maybe people would think twice about doing such events.. Unfortunately, athletes like Dean Karnazes have glorified the 50 marathons in 50 days approach, so if he can do it, why can't I. And while it may work for him, 99.99% of us should never even consider doing such a thing.

Does this mean no one should run a marathon?

Absolutely not. The marathon is a milestone many runners long to reach, but you MUST respect the distance and more importantly the training involved. You must devote your life to training in order to allow for proper recovery and repair of damaged muscles, bones and connective tissue. You must be consistent with your running...work wiggle room into your running schedule, but know too, that you cannot make up for missed runs.

None of us knows when it will be our time to go, however, you can't ignore the risks involved in training for an event of this magnitude. One of my favorite all-time books on the on the physiological changes in the body due to running (considered to be the encyclopedia of running) is The Lore of Running by Dr. Tim Noakes. His extensive research and review of studies is well documented in this book. You will be amazed the changes our bodies go through just to propel us to run--whether 2 feet or 26.2 miles...very in depth with the science to back up the facts.

Stepping off my soapbox again...

Nancy

TIMOTHYNOHE's Photo TIMOTHYNOHE Posts: 4,317
1/25/12 10:34 P

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You got it IrishTRose. Most of those collapses can probably be prevent with a comprehensive workup by a cardiologist, too.

The articles you were referring to made the rounds here on this team a couple of weeks ago.

Start by doing what is necessary, then do what is possible and suddenly you will be doing the impossible -- St Francis of Assisi

Rock 'n' Roll Dublin Half Marathon, Dublin, Ireland, 8/5/2013
ie.competitor.com/dublin/


IRISHTROSE129's Photo IRISHTROSE129 Posts: 717
1/25/12 10:28 P

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A lot of what is in this article has been taken from other articles I've read about marathons and increased risk of heart attacks. It's gotten so much media attention recently but I also just read a new article on the most indepth research yet to be done on this topic and it showed the statistics in 2 columns comparing runners that have died from running and those that had heart issues but survived. Most of the runners that died didn't receive cpr for over 5 minutes and that was why they didn't survive. For every article you read about running not be good for you, you will find 5 more that say it's okay. I wish I could find the article with the comparison but I'll keep looking. Check these out in the meantime... and happy running!

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,71
20,s6-241-285--12948-0,00.html

http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/ne
ws/20120111/marathons-cardiac-arrest-r
isk-low-study-finds

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/21/us/21m
arathon.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39835985/ns/
health-heart_health/t/marathon-runners
-suffer-temporary-heart-damage/

"Less than one-tenth of 1% of the world's population has ever dared to run a distance of a 1/2 marathon or greater."

"In the midst of regular life, running is the touchstone that breathes adventure into my soul."

"My sport is your sport's punishment."

"Don't put off till tomorrow what you can do today" one of my great grandmother's favorites

"Life is a verb." -Yoovie


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FREEDOMSTAR's Photo FREEDOMSTAR Posts: 13,801
1/25/12 9:56 P

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I just posted it on facebook Im sure it will cause a reaction

Thanks for pointing out self promoting sales

C0-Team leader of Change is Good and Half Marathon Team, Support panel of The Best Life Diet


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LAURIE5658's Photo LAURIE5658 SparkPoints: (191,156)
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1/25/12 9:55 P

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Timothy, you nailed it! Thank you.

~*~Laurie~*~
~*~Half Fanatic #1047~*~
~*~Marathon Maniac #5858~*~



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TIMOTHYNOHE's Photo TIMOTHYNOHE Posts: 4,317
1/25/12 9:52 P

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"Dr" Mercola is shilling Peak Performance products. He wants you to buy his programs, equipments, and shakes.

I actually read to near the end of the article before I realized what was going on.

Start by doing what is necessary, then do what is possible and suddenly you will be doing the impossible -- St Francis of Assisi

Rock 'n' Roll Dublin Half Marathon, Dublin, Ireland, 8/5/2013
ie.competitor.com/dublin/


FREEDOMSTAR's Photo FREEDOMSTAR Posts: 13,801
1/25/12 9:35 P

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Woah.... I just read the article and now I'm perplexed I need an expert opinion on this.

emoticon

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TRILLIUM22's Photo TRILLIUM22 Posts: 7,170
1/25/12 9:20 P

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I've seen someone else on spark supporting the peak 8 program. Because I've only seen these warning from one source I'm going to keep training for my marathons. I know I feel soooo much better than I did when I was less active.

Cindy or Trill
Co-Leader Jeff Galloway Training for Any Length Race Spark Team
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
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April 7, 2013 Go St. Louis Half Marathon 2:05:55
Chesterfield Turkey Trot 5k 26:05 PR


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LAURIE5658's Photo LAURIE5658 SparkPoints: (191,156)
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1/25/12 9:17 P

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I am very dubious with anything from Mercola. I would take anything in that article with a grain of salt.

~*~Laurie~*~
~*~Half Fanatic #1047~*~
~*~Marathon Maniac #5858~*~



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TRILLIUM22's Photo TRILLIUM22 Posts: 7,170
1/25/12 9:07 P

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Here's a link to the article in case anyone is finding cutting and pasting difficult.

fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/ar
ch
ive/2012/01/25/cardio-may-damage-heaR>rt.aspx?e_cid=20120125_DNL_art_1


Cindy or Trill
Co-Leader Jeff Galloway Training for Any Length Race Spark Team
www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
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April 7, 2013 Go St. Louis Half Marathon 2:05:55
Chesterfield Turkey Trot 5k 26:05 PR


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SKIRNIR's Photo SKIRNIR Posts: 5,174
1/25/12 8:53 P

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I doubt a half marathon is anywhere near as hard on your body as a marathon. I also think if one tries to do a marathon at their level and not push it, then maybe there wouldn't be any heart "damage" that this article claims exist. I have never seen a study say that and the inclusion of other ways of exercising at the end with images and stuff may say they have an agenda. Don't know. Didn't look into it, and read the last half. But I have seen a study that said that cardiac arrests do not happen more during marathons and I would think that all the cardio would be good. But to me, and this is from someone who has never done her first official half marathon, I think a marathon is hard on the body and I don't think I am going to do that to myself. I can't imagine trying to track my calories and run a marathon on the same day. My poor body. My eye doctor, who has run a marathon, was claiming your body functions shut down somewhat, where you don't have to pee anymore, etc. I do imagine that to be hard on the body, so I won't do one. But I have not seen studies that say it is unhealthy. Would be interested if they exist though.

3/31/12 Trailbreaker half marathon 13.1 miles in 3 hours 13 minutes
4/20/13 Neighborhood Watch 5K 39:17.6
10/5/13 5K Grace Pet Fest 38:47.6
12/1/13 Secret City Half Marathon around 3 hours and 4 minutes
4/19/14 Butterflies for Hope 5K for Lupus 39:23.8 (I hurt my back a few days before, and though it was my first official 5K with some jogging, my back hurt, so was very slow.)


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PINGUINAPLATA's Photo PINGUINAPLATA Posts: 633
1/25/12 8:30 P

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I believe that if you look hard enough, you'll find an authority who will say that pretty much ANYTHING is not good for us. If marathon training (or any other kind of training) is done to excess, it will not be healthy. If it's done in moderation, with the application of common sense and awareness of one's own body, it can be very beneficial.


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FREEDOMSTAR's Photo FREEDOMSTAR Posts: 13,801
1/25/12 8:22 P

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I cant find the article link posted doesnt work

What is name of article and who is it by?

thanks

C0-Team leader of Change is Good and Half Marathon Team, Support panel of The Best Life Diet


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POSTDOCFROMSF's Photo POSTDOCFROMSF Posts: 139
1/25/12 8:16 P

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Hey Team,

I just read this article yesterday that says training for marathons and running marathons is harmful not helpful exercise. I have been talking to people about it and I would love to know what folks here think about the conclusions drawn about our training regimen.

http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness
/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-may-damage-
heart.aspx?e_cid=20120125_DNL_art_1

"It is not the power of the curse, it is the power you give to the curse." -- From "Penelope" by Leslie Caveny ninamatsumoto.wordpress.com/2010/12/
18/athletic-body-diversity-reference-f
or-artists/#wpcom-carousel-1869
tinyurl.com/6pldo89


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