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NPDSLEUTH's Photo NPDSLEUTH SparkPoints: (41,090)
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1/24/11 11:17 P

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Jane, I'm sure we all understand your points. We just don't all agree or want to do this now.

Thanks, Nikki

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JANEKB Posts: 917
1/22/11 1:16 A

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Nikki,
I understand what you are saying, that you feel your KB is going well just using DVDs. And there are logistic reasons that keep someone from trainers.
What I am saying is that last Feb I thought that I was doing just fine using DVDs and I had logistical reasons to not go to a trainer - but the biggest reason was I didn't think they would add that much to my KB experience based on my past experience with exercise & trainers.

But now, after having done KBs with a good trainer I understand the big difference. KBs are different than other exercises done at a non-athletic level. Good form makes the person work out a lot harder (3-5x as hard) doing exactly the same workout and also enables the person to swing a much heavier bell.
You can get a workout doing anything if you move (up your HR to get cardio) and add some weights. If you want the benefits everyone talks about with KBs, you need a heavier KB and work with a trainer, you just can not get that without a trainer - it is too complex to teach over a DVD without being able to see what the person is actually doing.

I read Lorraine's post, she is saying the same thing. You won't know what you are missing unless you work with a trainer, but it is night and day difference.

That is why I say, if you can at all, find a good trainer and spend some time there. I know money is an issue, but shop around for classes. One full day class or 1 month of regular group classes can be the cost of 2-3 DVDs and you can learn a lot and your KBing will never be the same again.

Doing traditional kettlebell exercises, RKC style. Check out The Kettlebell Challenge sparkteam for more info - it welcomes everyone, from beginner to KB certified.

KETTLEBELLS PREPARE YOU FOR A HOST OF THINGS, BUT NOTHING PREPARES YOU FOR KETTLEBELLS.
NPDSLEUTH's Photo NPDSLEUTH SparkPoints: (41,090)
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1/19/11 8:24 P

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Thanks for all the time, effort and knowledge you put into the post, Jane. I totally agree that it's never wrong to be safe.

Just saying some folks - and I have to say me for example -- just don't use trainers for a variety of reasons and have great success with KBs.

I think as you said a few posts ago, it really comes down to common sense and moderation and for some (probably lots of) folks that means instruction. No shame in that.

Keep swinging guys!

And remember -- questions, opinions, ideas, all welcome. That's how we all learn!

Nikki

Edited by: NPDSLEUTH at: 1/19/2011 (20:25)
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JANEKB Posts: 917
1/19/11 11:49 A

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Go to any of the major players:
RKC - dragondoor.com
AKC - www.americankettlebellclub.com
IKFF - http://www.ikff.net/
AOS - http://www.artofstrength.com/

I am sure there are some I am missing.
Often they list instructors, but you can email them for a list if they don't. I learned RKC does not post the names if someone does not renew their certification, but they will let you know if someone ever got certified thru them (e.g. not on the web pages but did get certified at some point).

The point is, know the background of the trainer you are hiring.

Nikki,
Before I did any work with trainers, I used DVDs to teach myself. I would have said you don't need a trainer, just learn from DVD/books. I have done a lot of weight lifting in the past and was trained by a very skilled person (co-worker who was also a former powerweight champion and had competed in bodybuilding and wrote articles for Weider's magazines, etc.). So I could pick it up the basics on swings, etc. and work thru issues that came up. But I introduced 5 people to KBs and one of them ended up in the emergency room and on pain killers for 3 days - I expressed concern when he picked up a 35 lb Kb for his first swing but he was a big guy and he said that size fit his hands so I didn't push it. He did one swing and hurt his back. The 6th person I introduced to KBs luckily went with me to a free intro class. He was immediately pulled and given posture work to do before allowed to do a swing (in about 20 there were I think 3 that were pulled). So about 1 in 5 will have serious problems doing KB, that is a very high ratio.
It is easier to hurt yourself with KBs than weights or body weight exercises because of the forces caused by swings. And when you are tired or out of sorts, or fatigued towards the end of your workout, just don't pay enough attention, etc. the risk of injury goes up. Now I know what to check for when I show someone the swing and can say ok, you need to go see a trainer and work with them, do not try it on your own. I have never seen anyone teach the swing on a DVD saying ok stand like this, then have someone check you - take a picture of you and show it to you, and if you look like X or Y or Z change it and if you can't stop and go see a trainer, otherwise continue. In fact I have never seen the swing taught in any DVD anywhere near what I have learned in a class.
In the kettlebell challenge forum, I have seen lots of people go to a class or try KB on their own and something hurts in a bad way afterwards (knees, back, etc.). KBs should never hurt (other than muscle sorness). Joint damage will last for a very long time if not forever.

Someone in the kettlebell challenge group asked what would you do if you were starting over again.
I responded I would have spent the money and time on a trainer up front. My thinking was let me put only little money into this until I see if I want to be serious, so get a cheaper KB at Walmart & get some books/DVDs from the library and try it out. But I would have gotten to a much better workout much quicker (and known if I wanted to be serious or not within a week) by working with a trainer right away. When I did go work with a trainer (I chose a class as the cost is so much less), I quickly went up in KB weight (from 20 to 35 lbs) for every exercise, increased my swing length of time, etc. In other words I ramped up my exercise level very quickly, something I was doing much much more slowly on my own. And was given 10-15 exercises I could do right there and then with little instruction, so I had a more variation in my exercise sessions.

So, my #1 reason I push trainers as a LOT of people get hurt doing KBs, not all as bad as my one friend did, and some over time not realizing they are doing something that is wearing down a joint. Most people do not have the background I do to know how to protect joints (learned from working with a skilled weight lifter and making some mistakes during that time).
My #2 reason, I learned this by working with a trainer for 2 months, if you do the form correctly, you are working out about 4 times as hard then if you don't do the form correctly. So much better workout. And there is no way to learn the form correctly on your own - from a DVD or book. Ok maybe the rare person can do this with the right DVDs - dragon door has DVDs for instructors on how to find all the little things someone might need to improve on (we all need different things corrected), but the average person like us - no way. And form correction is done over time, I saw an HKC give a form correction to a RKC Team Leader (e.g. one of the top 20 people in the organization), she just chucked and corrected her form. You have to have a skilled person looking at you, over time, and evaluating where improvement is needed. I have had an instructor stare at my swing for 5 minutes, several times over a week, before giving a suggestion on what needed improvement (this was a team leader recognized for her ability to find those little nuances). My swing after classes is totally different than my swing before classes (which was safe and worked just fine, but not anywhere near what it could be).
My #3 reason, you will progress much much faster in your exercise regime by being pushed by a trainer. Note: I have never found a use for a trainer before in my life. I have tried out a couple but other than my friend who initially taught me weight lifting, they didn't add value to my workouts. I naturally push myself which not everyone does. But a good KB trainer (has good KB education and is a good trainer - 2 different things), can really make a difference in your goals (fitness, weight loss). KB pushes cardio & weights and most of us likes/loves one of these and doesn't really love the other. So a good trainer pushes you on what you don't love so you get a good workout in that area also. A good KB trainer keeps working on form so you get a much better workout in less time (get 4 times more work done in every swing).

So for the first time in 30 years, I do push to have a couple of sessions with a qualified KB trainer who has proven themselves skilled in KBs and in KB teaching. And I encourage classes where possible (or small group trainings) as the cost is less and you get a workout in being exposed to a variety of exercises you can then do at home, while still having your form reviewed regularly and over time. In fact even once you get up to speed, still do a class at least once a week to keep pushing yourself and getting those form corrections.

Just my 2 cents on why I have a bias towards a trainer,
Jane

Doing traditional kettlebell exercises, RKC style. Check out The Kettlebell Challenge sparkteam for more info - it welcomes everyone, from beginner to KB certified.

KETTLEBELLS PREPARE YOU FOR A HOST OF THINGS, BUT NOTHING PREPARES YOU FOR KETTLEBELLS.
NPDSLEUTH's Photo NPDSLEUTH SparkPoints: (41,090)
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1/18/11 8:38 P

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All good advice -- if you ladies have any resources i.e. lists like the one I posted, please add them! I know folks would love such a resource.

Just as a side note, I have not had any instruction and have done just fine with KBs. The key, of course, is common sense (as someone else just posted).

I know passions run high about "right" and "wrong" out there. The bottom line -- everyone has to decide what's right for him or her.

More information and opinions are ALWAYS welcome. That way we can really learn from each other.

Tx. guys -- Keep swinging! Nikki

Edited by: NPDSLEUTH at: 1/18/2011 (21:17)
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LORRAINEG57's Photo LORRAINEG57 Posts: 709
1/18/11 8:29 A

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Don't forget HKC!

Swing Like You Mean It- RKC Style

Currently swinging either a single 55 lb. or two 25 lb'ers.
JANEKB Posts: 917
1/18/11 2:49 A

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I took a look at this site. It is people who took that companies classes in KB. They certify someone after 2 days of classes (I believe if you pay and attend, you are certified).

Someone can become a certified kettlebell instructor by taking a simple open book test (e.g. google search for the answers) on the internet. That does not mean they are skilled enough to teach KBs safely or effectively.

I suggest everyone ask the instructors they are considering hiring what kind of certification and experience they have in kettlebells and VERIFY this (there are people claiming they are certified with RKC that have never been certified with RKC). As with anything, more training and experience makes a better teacher and some people become better teachers/trainers than others. So check out backgrounds and certification before hiring them and also you might want to check the style of their training (there is a lot of variation in training).

RKC, AKC, the equivalent Canadian & International groups, and AOS have earned a good reputation for what they demand out of their trainers and for the most part turn out pretty qualified trainers.
Some other groups give minimal/almost no training and comparing these trainers to the others above are like comparing apples to a block of wood (e.g. they are not both fruit).

KB is throwing a weight around and I have seen people pick it up and do serious injury to themselves because they had a bad instructor who did not know how to screen students to prevent injuries (a weekend can not possibly teach this well). The heavier the KB the more likely an injury will happen. The more ballistic type exercises - swings, snatches, the more likely an injury will happen. The more the movement puts stress on joints when done incorrectly (e.g. overhead movements, movements with rounded back, movements with knees or hips not in proper position), the more likely problems will be created over time.

So please everyone, research your instructor's background, interview them on their experience and training, and confirm the information is correct (if they are not listed on the organization they gave as a trainer, call/email the organization for verification if they were every a certified trainer with that organization).

In other words, use KBs at your own risk and be smart about it. You only have one body, you want it to keep working well for a very long time.

Jane

Edited by: JANEKB at: 1/25/2011 (13:07)
Doing traditional kettlebell exercises, RKC style. Check out The Kettlebell Challenge sparkteam for more info - it welcomes everyone, from beginner to KB certified.

KETTLEBELLS PREPARE YOU FOR A HOST OF THINGS, BUT NOTHING PREPARES YOU FOR KETTLEBELLS.
NPDSLEUTH's Photo NPDSLEUTH SparkPoints: (41,090)
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1/17/11 9:47 P

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Hey guys,

I know lots of folks have been wondering how to find KB instructors in their areas. I just ran across this great link I thought some of you might find useful. ENJOY!

Nikki

kbcinstructorlocator.com/instructor_
se
arch.php?t=country&v=United%20States


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