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MSDIANE's Photo MSDIANE Posts: 3,469
7/1/07 7:43 A

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I don't think there is a person in this country that does not agree that we need to change some things about the healthcare system.
What most people object to is that mm comes at it from a point that the USA is a bad place to live. In my opinion he should leave.
How we change it is an emotional issue for many people. I work in the dental field and so very many people can not afford dental work..even the people with insurance. It is out of control.
I like the ideas of incentives, preventive freebees, and alternative coverage.
There definitly needs to be something done about the insurance companies, lawyers and the big men at the top becoming so rich. I don't know what it is.
My personal opinion is I do not want the government in control for healthcare. I may be wrong. I am no wiz at this stuff. It just seems to me that to many politicians are not honest and they will not always have our best intrest.


Our Greatest National Resource is the Minds of our Children... Watler Elias Disney


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GGREENE's Photo GGREENE Posts: 2,869
7/1/07 12:01 A

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I see what you are saying. And I always figure it's best to throw out ideas on thinking how to improve situations that are less than ideal...and to really praise things that are working (i.e. insurance companies that offer incentives to employers with wellness plans).

My concern is not that you have failed, but that you are content in your failure. -Abe Lincoln

mamastrailmix.blogspot.com


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DUSTYFUN2T Posts: 71
6/30/07 10:09 P

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ggreene..thank you for your piece.. i am in agreement with that.. if insurances would include plans for obesity, etc..that would overall cut down their claims. i guess what i was trying to say in other post is that i really get tired of the way things come across with a hateful and angry tone. we can all agree or disagree.. just no reason to stand on anyones agenda in here.

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GGREENE's Photo GGREENE Posts: 2,869
6/30/07 12:02 P

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This whole issue of insurance and health care woes really gets at the heart of being healthy, and as health care professionals we all would have a unique and different take on the situation. I love hearing about how others have seen problems with the current system. I think we all would agree that the financial part of the health care system has problems and needs reconsideration. MM would come to the conclusion of a socialized health care system. I'm sure the film eloquently gets you emotionally upset about people that have been injured by insurance companies, and then offers his solution. I think others here may have other ideas on how it can be fixed and I love hearing them.

For example, I wish accessing nutritionists and fitness professionals were more affordable and available for all. Putting money there would save money in lifestyle related health problems.

My concern is not that you have failed, but that you are content in your failure. -Abe Lincoln

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BABELALALA's Photo BABELALALA Posts: 3,406
6/30/07 8:54 A

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i think we all have a right to talk about what we want to, and if there is someone that doesnt agree, or doesnt want to be part of it, that is their right.
Over eating is about emotions, and what saver place to let out our feelings.





 
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MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/30/07 8:43 A

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MSDIANE: you seem to be a kind, understanding soul who is a peace-maker by nature...
Dusty: I thought this thread was to discuss things like this--being part of the health profession is our common tie in this All Health Professionals Team--of course this should be a place where we can rant and rave and brain storm and commiserate and just generally feel like we are not alone....

 
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MSDIANE's Photo MSDIANE Posts: 3,469
6/30/07 8:04 A

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Dusty I understand how you feel about political debates. They have a time and place. But being in the all health profession messages it seems almost natural that it would spark an interest. I know I have very strong feelings on the issue. I try to basically keep them to myself because I don't want to offend anyone. I do like to hear others points of views.

Our Greatest National Resource is the Minds of our Children... Watler Elias Disney


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DUSTYFUN2T Posts: 71
6/30/07 3:33 A

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we hear enough about stuff like this without having to bring it in here.. please can we not have one area of our lives we don't have to debate health care? let sp be our refuge..

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MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/29/07 6:02 P

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VBaby: For your hard work emoticon

I agree with you


 
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VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 5:53 P

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MRLABES: I'm familiar with jumping through insurance hoops because I'm an Occupational Therapist. I probably don't have quite the paperwork nightmare that physicians and NP's have but I'm familiar with it & I have to bow down to insurance companies as well.

I'm also familiar with jumping through their hoops as someone with chronic illness. If I didn't have insurance my prescriptions would run over $1500 a month. My parents didn't pay for me to go to college---I did it 100% on my own---and it's a good thing I did because if I hadn't I'd be up a creek with no paddle. I had that choice when I graduated from high school. So does everyone else in the US. Part of me just doesn't feel sorry for people who make the wrong decisions in life. Our education system is available to everyone. People can use it to get themselves a high paying job with good insurance or they can choose not to.

I didn't grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth. I grew up believing in the power of education and when I see people wasting the opportunity of being an American citizen----I find it downright shameful. There are people in 3rd world countries who would love to have the opportunity that is so taken for granted here.

And even a physician in private practice has the decision of throwing in the towel if his/her family medical premiums are too high---they aren't as pricy if you work for a hospital.

Right now I just see insurance as a necessary "evil." It's certainly preferable to the government taking over.



Edited by: VALENTINE_BABY at: 6/29/2007 (17:56)
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MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/29/07 5:24 P

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VBaby: It is the insurance companies making the money--not the health care providers (at least not family practice or pediatrics) There are WAY too many people not on insurance because they can't afford it. My husband is a physician and we are thinking of dropping our insurance except for catastrophic because it is just way too expensive. Of course we can do many of our own health cares as it is our profession, but those poor people who are not able to do that find themselves in quite a poor predicament. Yet it is the insurance companies that tell us healthcare providers what to prescribe and when. We are forever filling out paperwork trying to explain that a patient has tried everything, but Prevacid is the only thing that helps prevent their GERD. Yet, insurance companies won't pay for massage therapy. We are just bowing and answering to the insurance companies.

 
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BABELALALA's Photo BABELALALA Posts: 3,406
6/29/07 5:20 P

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as for the people on social welfare, i have a friend here in canada and she gets 500.00 per month, she has been on welfare for 20 years, to her its her security blanket, i told her its her prison, it stops her from doing so much, but she doesnt see it that way, to her she gets to live in a cheap apartment for free and puts around all day with her head up her....
ofcourse that is not everyone, but there are a majority that are like that, in the states how many people stay on welfare because that is the only way they can afford medical care, or that is where their medical care brought them to.







 
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MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/29/07 5:08 P

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GGREEN: I agree with you on that we need to shift our money from 'sickcare' to 'healthcare.' When I worked as an RN in the MICU, I saw first-hand all the money we were spending on patients who didn't want to be there. (Have patience while I explain...) First there were all those poor little people who just wanted to die, but because cousin Mary clear over in Arizona who hadn't seen this person in years wanted us to do all we can for him/her, we ended up breaking his/her ribs with CPR and giving him/her very costly medicine and care for him/her to be tied up in bed wishing they were dead. Or the person with emphysema sitting at the edge of their bed struggling for their breath and yet wishing they were home smoking a cigarette... I remember people here in Kansas driving all the way to Blackwell, Oklahoma (and there were ALOT of them) to spend huge amounts of money to see a physician there for 15 minutes and spend money for Phen-fen. Yet, we continue to take PE and exercise out of schools and feed our children high carb meals and push super-size menus. We continue to promote unhealthy lifestyles because we are afraid to offend certain people or a certain group of people.

Here in Kansas we have a cap on how much a person can be awarded in a medical liability law suit. It still is a large amount, but when I go to our medical liability insurance meetings and hear about our poor neighbors in Missouri it is just ridiculous! I also think it is a shame that we have to go to these meetings to have to learn how not to be sued! Also, every convention it seems that I go to I hear, "It's not if you are going to get sued, it is when..." We live in such a litigious society that my husband has had to quit delivering babies as the malpractice insurance was just getting to be too much--although we have yet to be sued. I also am thinking of getting out of healthcare...Although I love my patients, I am getting burned out. It just isn't worth jumping through all the hoops and not getting reimbursed. I know we order way more tests than we should just because we have to stick "to what the book says" or we shun alternative health care because it doesn't have the research behind it. Granted, I believe there is too much money spent now on alternative medicine that doesnt help, but there is alot out there that can help. I became a nurse practitioner because I wanted to help people to help themselves take better care of themselves. I thought I would be the gatekeeper of health care--getting people to the specialist they needed to see. I thought I was going to help people take better care of themselves with nutrition, exercise, teaching them about their disease or illness or chronic condition so that they could make wise choices. I thought I was going to promote wellness and "health"care. And I did when I first began my practice. I had my own patient base. I saw my doctor's patients in the hospital in the mornings and he would see them in the afternoon. I prescribed diets and "NURSING" kind of things and these patients were so much happier and got out of the hospital much faster. Now, I am just a "mini" doc--I HATE IT!

 
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MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/29/07 4:41 P

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PERRYDAVID:
Good luck on your schooling!!!! Woo Hoo a fellow RN picking himself up by the bootstraps and furthering his career! emoticon

Now, I am not saying that Medicaid is bad, infact, used correctly, it is a good thing and should be used. When I look back, we really should have gotten a medical card for our kids or me when I was pregnant, but we were just too stupid I guess. My sister and sister in law each used the medical cards when they needed them. (My sister got pregnant in high school, but now has a chemical engineer degree and is one of the heads of a company that does soil and water sampling and monitoring of hazard areas such as land fills, spills, and so forth.) She used the card to help but she used my tax dollars wisely and is now paying for other people. My sister-in-law and her family of 5 are now missionaries in Nigeria. So, I think Medicaid is important, but we have warped it so that we cause wrong incentives or disinsentives....

Again, good for you and keep up the good work!

 
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VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 4:27 P

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p.s. I didn't mean "liberal agenda" in the tone of Rush....there are many liberal agendas that I agree with such as gay marriage and the pro-choice movement. I just don't agree with any agendas that Michael Moore has ever gotten behind and/or invented. He's the sicko.

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VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 4:20 P

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On Oprah's show Michael Moore said that SiCKO is about people WITH insurance.

A stroke of genius on his part, considering the overwhelming majority of Americans have some form of health insurance---so his film is speaking to the majority. If I understood him correctly on Oprah, this film will be about how insurance companies make decisions that impact people's lives and potentially cause people's deaths.

My guess is that he wants us to believe that making a profit in medicine is inherently wrong and that we should move to a different system (ie socialism).

I would like to see it because it seems wrong to criticize a movie I haven't even seen. However, I don't want my $$$$ contributing to his liberal agenda. Maybe I'll buy a ticket to Transformers and walk into SiCKO. Michael Bay makes good movies---I don't mind contributing to his future endeavors. LOL!

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GGREENE's Photo GGREENE Posts: 2,869
6/29/07 3:42 P

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I have not yet viewed SICKO, although I plan on it. I think there are points on both sides. But on both sides I think a shift in thinking needs to be made from 'sickcare' to 'healthcare'. Most preventative measures are not covered by insurance. We spend so many personal and federal dollars taking care of people who have become ill due to lifestyle choices that we are unable/unwilling to give that money to promote wellness on the front end. I think all of us in the healthcare field have seen how federally funded health plans have been abused (although not by everyone). And I think we've all met people who fall between the cracks of not being poor enough to qualify for federal aid but not having health insurance. I think more than anything we need a shift in our approach to healthcare...as I'm sure many of you can see ways to do this and pull your hair out when the funding is not there.

My concern is not that you have failed, but that you are content in your failure. -Abe Lincoln

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PERRYDAVID Posts: 3
6/29/07 3:38 P

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Thank you for the story. I am an RN about to go back for my CRNA and I see the same thing happening all the time. I see people at our walk in clinic who can't afford a co-pay but then I see them outside get into thier F250 truck that I know cost more than both our cars put together. I'm with you MRLABES, my wife and I both came from poor households and after over $100000 in student loans we got decent paying job.
It irks me to no end that people want freebies. When people do get the care or help they need- they sometimes waste it. I don't know if vouchers are the solution, but it is an idea- one a lot better than universal healthcare. At least w/a voucher nobody gets off for free. Believe me- somebody making minimum wage would think twice about paying $12 to go to the ER for a cough.
Another story about food stamps. My sister didn't travel the same road I did- she dropped out w/ 2 mos left in high school and now has a 3 yr old- she's 22. When she got her food stamps- she got "back pay". Her and her bf went out and got steak, lobster, coca cola, and ice cream novelties. She lives at home and pays hardly any bills. She also just got a brand new car. Even w/ driving her new car- which is around $370/ mo. she complains about the cost of healthcare and how it should be free and people like me should have to help pay for it.

MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/29/07 3:21 P

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LONG Story: We started out in life EXTREMELY poor. I would make a chicken stretch for week of meals. Hot dogs were a main meat source because we could get a full package for only $0.29. We were too dumb to even think about getting on any kind of government assistance except for student loans and grants and scholarships--which my husband was not able to get much help as we is a white male (I think it might be different now, though.) One of our many experiences of the "unfairness" of life happened when I was in the hospital. My husband was bringing our two children up to see me. He had to stop off at the gas station to fill the car up with gas (something that was tightly budgeted for.) Our two children went into the convience store with my husband when he went in to pay for the gas (before pay-at-the-pumps.) Waiting in line in front of my family was a morbidly obese (now days she would fit into the new super obese category) woman with a couple of small children. She had an armload of junk food--a couple of big burrito things, some candy bars, and a couple of the 44 ounce cups of pop. My children seeing this had their appetite whetted and asked their father for a candy bar. My husband told them, "No, we can't afford it." It was then this woman paid for all of her items with food stamps. This of course is not an isolated incidence, but it is a perfect example of the ills we are teaching our children. What do you suppose those children learned from this? Now, my husband and I have saved and worked hard to get where we are. Although we are not rich by any means, we are comfortable. It is frustrating, though, when people say, "Oh, you have it so good because you are a doctor." ARRRRGHHH!! We worked to get here--each of us working two jobs and going to school AND raising kids--WITHOUT government help or help from anyone except my father co-signing on our first trailer house (which we never defaulted on any payments so it only took his signature) and my father helping with my first year of college. Yet, now an entire 1/3 of our income goes to taxes and we watch people abuse the system and yet those same people argue that we have life easy because we "are doctors." (note, I am not a doctor, I am a nurse practitioner and don't want to be a doctor, yet people still call me "doctor" despite me correcting them.) Many peole would gripe about "how easy we had it" and then they would go out for lunch, while we would pack our lunch every day. Every dollar we saved we put into education to better ourselves. It all boils down to priorities....Instead of instant gratification, we opted for investment in our future so that now we can be "comfortable." In this society of instant gratification, we are teaching our children bad habits and we are actually doing people a disservice by not having them be responsible for their actions. If you want to smoke, ok...but don't blow the smoke in my face. I'm sorry that you have that terrible addiction and I sympathize with you, but I don't want to have to pay for your addiction or your poor health because you have made that choice. We we council smoking cessation, we are often told by the patient that he/she can't afford the medicine or what ever the treatment. It costs $50 a month for bupropion (generic for Zyban/Wellbutrin), yet the person is spending much more than that a month for cigaretts. Heck, they pay more for a pack of cigarettes than the $4 copay that I propose for an ER visit.

 
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MRLABES's Photo MRLABES Posts: 543
6/29/07 2:47 P

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Michael Moore does like to stir things up, doesn't he? This stirring brings him lots and lots of money!
Just as the devil can quote the Bible and use it to try and prove his point, Mr. Moore can one single perspective and flaunt it any way he wants. We pay film makers to create illusions and dreams. People don't pay money to go see a movie about real life--even "reality" shows have to be manipulated and spiced up so the public will watch them.

On the other hand, we DO need to do something about our "healthcare" system. My husband, a Family Practice Physician, and I practice in a rural setting. It has been very frustrating for us to watch our health system deteriorate. It does seem that the more we as a society try to become "politically correct", the more we are promoting poor behaviors and the more desparaging our healthcare becomes. Medical cards are a good idea, but they have become a source of promoting poor behaviors. It does not cost any money to go to the ER, whereas people on Medicaid have to pay a $2 copay to see their primary care provider. Guess what...we see people in the ER for colds or because, "I coughed once this morning." What are we teaching people? If we charged a $4 copay to go to the ER then those people would go to see their primary care provider like they should instead of using the most expensive point of medical care. Even if it is an emergency, $4 is not that much to pay for an emergency. Believe me, people spend more than that on McDonalds every day! We as a society do not teach fudiciary responsibility. I think it is important that people realize how expensive something is. I think a voucher system is a good idea. Although food stamps has made some good changes toward promoting better health, I still wish it were like the WIC program in that it uses a voucher system so people have to get healthy food. (I know WIC and Food stamps are from different federal budgets--WIC from Dept. of Health and Food Stamps from the Dept of Agriculture.)

 
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PERRYDAVID Posts: 3
6/29/07 1:15 P

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It's a complex situation, but I agree w/ V-baby. Government controlled healthcare is not good for the industry. It's true about pharmaceutical companies. It cost millions upon millions to get a drug passed and distributed in our country. They don't go into business to become heroes- they do it to make money. Malpractice suits need to capped. Mistakes are made sometimes, and rewarding somebody millions upon millions for something missed or not optimally treated is wrong.
As a middle class RN, who works at a county hospital no less, putting the govt in charge of all health care is wrong. It'd be paid for by raising taxes to high heaven and squeezing all middle class people even more. I have heard the same thing from nurses from other countries about long waits, but what worries me more is how other countries are way behind in technology.
I will say this- kids should be covered and I believe for the most part are. Adults who are perfectly capable of working and taking care of themselves should get insurance or run the risk of not being able to pay for thier healthcare. They will be treated, it's just going to take a lot longer for them to pay.

VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 1:04 P

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I definitely agree about the mal practice suits. People shouldn't become gazillionaires for getting a rib broken during the CPR that saved their life.

Pharmaceutical companies spend millions of dollars to invent new drug therapies. Then they spend even more millions to get it approved by the FDA. That's why the companies charge less for the same drugs in other countries---because those countries didn't require them to spend as much to get a stamp of approval.

Plus, I don't understand why the government allows drug patents to expire after 8 or 10 years or however long. As a patient, I'm glad that they do so that I can buy a generic for less money.

But that drug company spent all that money inventing the drug and then after about a decade, POOF! Wal-Mart gets to copy it for practically free and make millions off of other people's research and innovation.

Doesn't seem very fair to me. So I can kinda see why they charge exorbitant prices in the years before their patents expire.

But I'm getting off topic.

Back to Mr. Moore. I'm just bewildered as to why anyone would want the government in charge of medicine.

I want to hear from some doctors. C'mon now, chime in. I want to hear your opinions. And pharmacists too.



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MSDIANE's Photo MSDIANE Posts: 3,469
6/29/07 12:26 P

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If they want to fix the health care situation there are a few common sense things they could do with out making the government in control.
First if you are not a citizen no treatment. Sounds cruel but if you are a citizen and can't afford it you don't get it. The strain on our health care system is enormous.
Limit the awards limited to mal practice. This would lower drs insurance and lower prices.
Get control of pharmacutical companies.

Our Greatest National Resource is the Minds of our Children... Watler Elias Disney


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VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 11:04 A

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With regards to education, every American is afforded a free and appropriate education from kindergarten until 12th grade. Children with special needs are provided services even longer--ages 3-21. After graduating from college, all U.S. citizens are given the opportunity to apply for financial aid to help them afford an education. My parents could not pay for my college so I took out loans. Yes, it was expensive and I could not afford a private school but I went to two excellent state schools. I am very thankful to live in a country where the opportunity is there if you want it. My graduate school was about $7000 a year in tuition. But I'll be making decent money to pay it back---as long as the field of medicine can continue making profits, LOL. But if I have to start paying for everyone else's medical coverage with increased taxes then I'll have less money in my pockets. Plus my salary will plummet because no one will be making any profit to help pay my salary. And then what will I do? Oh well, I'll be 35 in a few years.....perhaps I could run for office, LOL.

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VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 10:54 A

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I have major health issues at the age of 30. I've had my diagnosis since I was 19. I spend a lot of time on the message boards for my illness which causes a ton of pain & has no cure. I'm on over a dozen prescription drugs, many are over $200 a month. But I have insurance---so I pay no more than $10-$20 for each one. People in the US have access to Medicaid if they are low income and don't get insurance through their employer. Yes, I realize there are people caught in the middle--they can't afford insurance but they aren't poor enough for Medicaid. That should be fixed. Perhaps everyone should have the option of getting on Medicaid and paying what they can afford. I spend time on the message boards for my diagnosis and I hear a lot of people in Canada complaining that they have to wait for months and months before they can receive the surgery necessary for diagnosis. Plus one of my good friends married a Canadian and I hear a lot of stories from her. Yeah, it's affordable but access is poor according to her. And their taxes are super high to pay for it.

I just don't understand what is so wrong with our current system. Of course Michael Moore can find horror stories of people who have been totally screwed under our current system. I could find equally horrific stories of people in other countries around the world under socialized medicine who died while waiting to get that suspicious mole checked out---if I were a filmmaker with an overt agenda that is.

I definitely don't think medical care should be a luxury reserved for the wealthy.

But, if the system is changed in a way that prevents profits from being made, I don't see how that encourages new and exciting medical frontiers from being explored.

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BABELALALA's Photo BABELALALA Posts: 3,406
6/29/07 5:39 A

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where do you get the idea that in Canada it takes months and months to get biopies? Atleast in Canada, if you need a doctor, you can go and not worry about how much its going to cost you. I have been in counselling for the last 4 years, 6 hours per week, for being in PTSD, can you imagine how much that would have cost me, my dr. charges $300 per hour, thank God Canada set up a system that ALL people can afford to go to a dr., when we need to, and for those that dont have private insurance, there is obligatory government insurance so that people can afford their medication. How much does it cost people in the States to stay in a hospital, for me the cost of seeing a dr. and going to a hospital is free. all I have to do is show my medicare card which everyone in Canada has.
Nursing homes run about $800 - $l800 per month depending on your money situation.
My husbands grandmother lived in New Jersey, had worked hard her whole life into her 70's, the last couple of years of her life she lost all her money due to having to pay over $10,000 in nursing home fees per month, how many Americans can afford that, what happens to the ones that cant afford to go see a dr. even for a simple ear infection, which cost me $100. in the states in the early 1980's just to see a dr. for 5 minutes. As for education, it would cost me about $2000.00 per year to go to McGill University or Concordia University, and it cost my husband less then that to go to Law School in Dalhousie University in Halifax. How much does it cost to go to University in the United States per year. For me, looking at the land of golden opportunities, I really wonder for who they are, they certainly are not for the average American.

Seeing a dr. should not be a luxury for those that can afford it. Maybe Michael Moore's is on the right path?





 
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VALENTINE_BABY's Photo VALENTINE_BABY SparkPoints: (0)
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6/29/07 2:52 A

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Well, the movie is coming out soon. Tomorrow I think. Any thoughts?

I haven't seen it and to tell you the truth I don't want really to. But I might, who knows. I saw him on Oprah several weeks ago and he proposed the idea of healthcare being ran in the same manner as police departments, fire departments, and public schools---by the government and for no profit. (Sounds like socialism to me). He said that no one has a problem with the fact that these entities are not making a profit for their services. It is my understanding he believes medicine should not be making money either---because it is a "life and death" enterprise. Woo Woo.

????

Is he kidding? I guess if I really want to know what point he's trying to make I should see the movie. But if this IS the point........sheesh. I just wonder what incentive there would be for companies to invent new and improved drugs to treat cancer, HIV, etc. What would the incentive for ANYTHING be without profit? Medical companies have to spend millions to make millions. We don't get these fancy new treatments and therapies out of the hospital broom closet.

This is not as simple as fighting crime and fires. There is a reason people from all over the world come to the USA for specialized medical care. And there is a reason people in Canada wait in line for months just for simple procedures such as biopsies.

Aahh!!!

You know, if you think about, the grocery store is "life and death" too. I mean, if I can't get food I will DIE. How dare Skippy and Wonder Bread be profiting off of little old ME.

Edited by: VALENTINE_BABY at: 6/29/2007 (03:01)
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