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EVELYNF's Photo EVELYNF SparkPoints: (15,820)
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7/2/12 11:16 A

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To be honest, I don't know how "raw" they really are. It's the vitamin Code brand, they seem to get good reviews.



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GENTLEVIKING's Photo GENTLEVIKING Posts: 3,798
6/27/12 10:20 A

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I had no idea there were "raw" vitamins and minerals on the market!

T E R R Y

***Life has no remote. Get up and change it yourself!
***"I can do all things through Christ!" Phillipians 4:13




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EVELYNF's Photo EVELYNF SparkPoints: (15,820)
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6/27/12 10:12 A

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I take:

Raw Multi
Veg DHA
Raw D3 - my dad had osteoporosis and Alzheimers so I'm not taking any chances with absorption. If you are taking D2 double the dosage for better results
Whole Food B-complex - have more energy since adding these and doubling the dosage
Raw B12
A stress remedy from New Chapter
Probiotics (can't remember the brand)

When I'm sore or achy I'll also add some Magnesium & Gaba to the mix - they are both muscle relaxers

As for protein I don't usually track it - when I do I hover around 50 - 60 grams



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JULESRULES78's Photo JULESRULES78 SparkPoints: (58,872)
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6/22/12 9:02 A

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"Vegan Eating for Kids" says good sources are fortified cereals and legumes.

Julie
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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/22/12 8:26 A

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Zinc is indeed one of the ones that I was thinking I might have to think about. Not sure!

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JULESRULES78's Photo JULESRULES78 SparkPoints: (58,872)
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6/22/12 7:58 A

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Last night I read Zinc is a concern, especially for kids. Comments? Thoughts?

Julie
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GENTLEVIKING's Photo GENTLEVIKING Posts: 3,798
6/21/12 10:33 P

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" are you of Swedish or Norwegian decent by any chance?"

I like to "think" so, but I actually have no idea. I only adopted the viking title after I found out that my family's last name "may" be of viking origin. (There's just as good a chance that it may not be, too). But what guy doesn't like to think he might have had viking ancestory (the macho man thing, I guess), so I adopted it.

" The best way to lower triglycerides (that I know of) is to lower your calorie intake and increase exercise, since triglycerides are the body storing extra calories as fat.... (but I'm not a medical doctor). "

I appretiate you mentioning that, because it backs up what I've heard or read before. When my Tri's were at their best last summer, I was on a calorie controlled diet and exercising regularly---so it makes sense. I've had a bad year (food and exercise-wise) and fell off the wagon and keep trying to push myself to get back on it again.

"so with an "old fashioned doctor", you might want to look up some information on flax oil and take it to the doctor with you to discuss it."

An excellent idea! I'll do that! Will also mention the D2's. Thanks emoticon

T E R R Y

***Life has no remote. Get up and change it yourself!
***"I can do all things through Christ!" Phillipians 4:13




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DS9KIE's Photo DS9KIE SparkPoints: (259,201)
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6/21/12 9:20 P
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wow there is alot of great info

I just take a mitivitaim (when I remember),B12 once a week and some other natuarl supplements. i problem is remembering to take them.

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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/21/12 12:29 P

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GENTLEVIKING (Viking reference - are you of Swedish or Norwegian decent by any chance?)

Yeah, fish oil and flax oil have both been studied for their ability to lower triglycerides, but that result seems somewhat questionable. The best way to lower triglycerides (that I know of) is to lower your calorie intake and increase exercise, since triglycerides are the body storing extra calories as fat.... (but I'm not a medical doctor).

But if the doctor thinks fish oil would help you, flax oil would probably help just as well.... so with an "old fashioned doctor", you might want to look up some information on flax oil and take it to the doctor with you to discuss it. As for D2 vs D3, I don't think you would have to be a special fancy doctor to be able to switch it, I'd just say that you want a non-animal source of D, and the doc should be able to help you. I'm sure he has a big book of dosages, and can easily look it up even if he is more familiar with D3.

And yes, I agree that you should absolutely wait until your next appointment/blood work to change anything, particularly if you have major health issues.

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GENTLEVIKING's Photo GENTLEVIKING Posts: 3,798
6/21/12 9:44 A

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Hi Kelly12 (we have another Kelly on the list, so I'll just call you Kelly12 to avoid confusion! Ha!)

You mentioned me talking to my doc about D2 and I think that's a good idea, but he's not much of a naturalist at all--strictly a "by the book" kind of doctor. I wish I could find me a doctor like Dr. Oz! (You may not know who I'm talking about, since you live in another country---but he's a doctor on American TV who is really into natural treatments for health.)

"Have you talked to your doctor about flax oil instead of fish oil? Don't know what the specific need is for you, but maybe that would be an option. "

I'm actually not clear on what the specific need for me was either! Ha! My doctor wasn't too clear on it, but if I understood him right, he thinks it might lower my triglycerides and increase "the good fats" in my blood. I would much rather be taking something vegan, though, like the flax oil you suggested. And now they are begining to make more vegan supplements that are supposed to be as good as fish oil...but there seems to be debate over which product or ingredient "really" works. So I guess for now I sorta feel "stuck" with the fish oil until my next blood work is done.

The article by Jeff Novick was interesting--I think I'll print it out for future reference.




T E R R Y

***Life has no remote. Get up and change it yourself!
***"I can do all things through Christ!" Phillipians 4:13




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JULESRULES78's Photo JULESRULES78 SparkPoints: (58,872)
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6/21/12 7:50 A

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LOL,

I am totally with you on the OCD. Tracking became an obsession for me for awhile.

As a new vegan I had to make sure that I was getting enough carbs because I was cutting an area (dairy) where many of my carb calories were coming from. It took awhile for me to find what worked. Another hang up for me was the recommended amount of fiber. A vegan will get much more that SP recommends and that is OK. As long as you are comfortable, you are fine.

I'm sorry that I am not much help on the "diet" front. I had already reached my goal weight before becoming vegan. I have however maintained here and really think that calories in vs. calories out is the most important as far as weight loss.

Good luck fine tuning your nutritional needs:)

Julie
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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/21/12 3:50 A

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IMVEGAN - that makes a lot of sense to calculate the necessary protein based on ideal weight. And, that makes it achievable for me right now. I guess, I'd never seen that specified before.

The nutrition tracker is a blessing and a curse.... it has helped me to better plan out meals, and to correct some misconceptions I had. I previously thought that nuts had more protein than they do, and I wasn't aware of how much peas had! But it has also got me stressing about it more than usual (I think a little bit of OCD coming out).

But anyway, I didn't mean to have protein dominate this conversation - it was my original intention to start a discussion about all dietary needs, and where others feel they need some extra support in terms of supplements. Or perhaps more general, even if you do not use supplements, what you pay particularly close attention to with your nutrition.

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IMVEGAN's Photo IMVEGAN Posts: 2,906
6/20/12 8:59 P

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Remember the WHO guidelines are for IDEAL body weight not actual body weight. Why would you feed fat? So decide on your Ideal body weight and figure .8 grams of protein of that amount.

And a baby when she is growing at the fastest time in her life only gets 7% of her total calories in protein.

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JULESRULES78's Photo JULESRULES78 SparkPoints: (58,872)
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6/20/12 7:57 P

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KELLY,

Thanks again for bringing this up. I haven't faithfully tracked in a long time, and for all I know I'm getting more protein than I think I am. I am going to try super hard over the next months to get some numbers down so that I know the math:) I have been eating a lot more beans lately than in the past...



Julie
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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/20/12 4:32 P

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JULES - Good point you make about listening to your body. I think you are probably right on this one, which is why I never stressed out about protein until I started counting it. But yeah, if you feel good and are able to build muscle, you are probably on the right track.... and the math equation is probably less relevant.


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6/20/12 12:01 P

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Kelly,
You asked how I know that I'm getting enough protein. For one, I'm happy. Secondly, I continue to gain muscle mass and get stronger with my workouts. I would imagine that if I was not getting adequate protein that this would not be the case. I am stronger that I've ever been in my life.

I have not been professionally evaluated, but I do consider myself to be pretty good at knowing my own body.

If you feel you need an additional protein boost to meet your goals go for it, and thank you for prompting this discussion. It is something that I would like to research more (diet/maintenance protein). I imagine the ratio should be the same as SPs ratios remain the same into maintenance, but I don't know.

Julie
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BONIDALE's Photo BONIDALE SparkPoints: (24,381)
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6/20/12 11:48 A

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That's great that you can get Vega Kelly. I really like it as a smoothie base.

Boni
Co-Leader Vegan Fitness and Nutrition

"There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going." Anon
"Finishing is winning."
"Treat everone you meet as if they have a sign around their neck, "Make me feel important."


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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/20/12 11:32 A

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Yeah, doctor's orders can be a tricky one! I was taking a gelatin capsule a while ago because there were no alternatives for the medicine that i needed.... I didn't like choking those down, but luckily it was temporary and short-term.

You could ask your doctor to switch you over to the D2 (vegan) version, but they will need to reevaluate your dose, because the absorption is different.

Have you talked to your doctor about flax oil instead of fish oil? Don't know what the specific need is for you, but maybe that would be an option.

So.... the two of you mentioned the ENGINE 2 diet, which I had never heard of, so I googled it, and there was a relevant article on their website's front page:

The Daily Beet: How Much Protein Do We Really Need? A Post by Jeff Novick, MS, RD
engine2diet.com/the-daily-beet/how-m
uc
h-protein-do-we-really-need-a-post-bR>y-jeff-novick-ms-rd/


And he again references the 0.8g/kg - and says that this can come entirely from a healthy diet without supplements, but again, he is referencing a person with a normal caloric intake, not someone on a diet.

I'm still leaning toward a protein supplement (short term!) to support muscle growth on a reduced calorie diet while I lose fat. I looked into it, and I *can* get that Vega protein supplement here (well, order it from the UK), so I might check into that.

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GENTLEVIKING's Photo GENTLEVIKING Posts: 3,798
6/20/12 11:18 A

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Hi Kelly! Good questions!

Some of the supplements I'm taking right now are not vegan, but are my "doctors orders"...so I'm doing it for now till I can find better vegan ones.

I take:

D3 (because I'm more of an indoor kind of person who doesn't get much sun).
Subl. B-12
Fish Oil (doctors orders! Don't like it!)
Niacin (my blood was low on it)

I would have to agree with Boni that one does not really need a lot of protein (course, I also go mostly by the Engine 2 Diet). I'm a guy and I've been on the E2 diet basically for three years and have seen no loss in muscle mass that I can detect (visually speaking). I would think that the only reason a person might need a lot of protein is if you are really physcially active and athletic.

Our doctors here in the states are sometimes not much better. My doctor often doesn't bring up stuff unless I do. Nowdays they seem to be relying more and more on blood test to "gage" a person's health, which I'm sure is a good thing, but sometimes one just wishes our doctors would have heart to heart discussions with us about our lives and health. I briefly had a doctor who did that and she seemed to motivate me more to "want" change.

T E R R Y

***Life has no remote. Get up and change it yourself!
***"I can do all things through Christ!" Phillipians 4:13




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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/20/12 9:51 A

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FYI: That WHO report I just posted is HUGE. the information that I was referencing is on page 242, section 14.2.

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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/20/12 9:50 A

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It is nuts, because I never worried about my protein before this nutrition tracker. Maybe it is good that we're thinking about it now, but I don't want to cross the line into anxiety (or cause anyone else to do so either). But I think this is an important dialogue to have!

22.5 seems a little too lean on protein in my opinion. I don't know what WHO report he was referencing, but this report from 2007 says 0.83g/kg bodyweight again.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_935
_eng.pdf

This 0.8x factor is one that I see frequently, and again, that would indicate that I would need about 70g of protein now, and 56 at my goal weight.

Once I reach my goal weight, and I am eating a maintenance diet with more calories, I don't see any problem reaching that. But to get 70g of protein in 1300 calories on a plant-based diet seems crazy.

I guess the confusion is coming from which conversion factor to use, and whether it should be based on calories (i.e. 10 or 5% of calorie intake - which obviously scales with caloric intake) or body weight (0.6, 0.8, or 1.0 g/kg). And I'm not sure if these functions should be different in the meat eating vs. plant eating diets.....

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BONIDALE's Photo BONIDALE SparkPoints: (24,381)
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6/20/12 9:26 A

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Two good quotes from The Engine 2 Diet by Rip Esselstyn page 32-33 Kelly:
"According to the World Health Organization the average 150 pound male requires only 22.5 grams of protein daily based on a 2000 calorie a day diet. Which means 4.5% of calories should come from protein."
and
"getting an adequate amount of protein (on a plant-based diet) should be the least of your worries."
and
"if you eat a plant-strong diet, you'll be getting neither too much nor too little protein, but an amount that's just right."
spinach - 51% protein, mushrooms 35%, beans 26%, oatmeal 16%, etc.

Edited by: BONIDALE at: 6/20/2012 (11:19)
Boni
Co-Leader Vegan Fitness and Nutrition

"There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going." Anon
"Finishing is winning."
"Treat everone you meet as if they have a sign around their neck, "Make me feel important."


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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/20/12 8:34 A

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Thanks for the info and the links! Yes, SP recommends 60-144 grams of protein for me, and I find that on a GOOD day, I can get about 55 grams, but regularly around 48-50. I have yet to hit the 60 even once (and I eat SO many beans, veggies, soy, nuts). I currently weigh 85 kg, so by the 0.6x factor, that should be 51 grams.... that is much more doable!

I've seen factors from 0.5-1.0 though, and with strength training, I kind of thought I should be on the upper side of that.

I was looking at a soy protein powder, but it is a good point you make about the processing in facilities that also process casein (and whey?) ..... the latter of which I am actually allergic to, so beyond any ethical issues, there could be health risks involved for me which I hadn't considered.

I've never worried about my protein intake until the SP nutritional tracker - I wish there were vegan settings in there!!!!

How do you know you are not lacking in protein? Has your doctor tested you in some way? I'm just curious - doctors in Belgium only do/discuss what you ask them to do, so I am always looking for things that I need to talk to my doctor about. (they don't even track your weight/vital signs at every appointment here.... its weird)

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BONIDALE's Photo BONIDALE SparkPoints: (24,381)
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6/20/12 8:33 A

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Good advice from the previous posters. I take B12 and Vitamin D because of a genetic disorder, not diet. I use Vega Sport a plant-based performance protein after my morning run/walks but I doubt that you can get it in Belgium. A serving contains 25g of protein.

Boni
Co-Leader Vegan Fitness and Nutrition

"There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going." Anon
"Finishing is winning."
"Treat everone you meet as if they have a sign around their neck, "Make me feel important."


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JULESRULES78's Photo JULESRULES78 SparkPoints: (58,872)
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6/20/12 8:05 A

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Your vitamins sound good to me.

What are you using as your protein guidelines? I have found SPs guidelines to be high for a vegan diet. Their minimum is close to my maximum, and I am NOT lacking. World Heath Organization guidelines suggest protein intake 0.6 g protein/kg per day. That is .6 gram of protein for every kilogram one weighs. So 158 pound person weighs about 72 kilograms. 59 x .6= 43.2 grams of protein. (See whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_935_en
g.
pdf
if you want to read about this in more detail.)

Kelly,

Protein should vary based on the number of calories you consume and should make up approximately 10% of the calories you are eating. So, if you eat 1300 calories you should strive for 130 of those calories to come from protein (preferably in the form of broccoli, kale, beans, legumes, and other lower fat plant sources).

As far as supplements, I take a DEVA multivitamin, though I have heard that this is not the best source for B12. I'm just trying to finish them up before I start B-12 drops. Because many protein powders contain casein or are made in facilities that process it, I tend to shy away. Plus I like getting my protein the old-fashioned way. We get plenty of sunshine here and our soy, oat, and almond milks are enriched with vitamin D so I don't worry about it too much.

Edited by: JULESRULES78 at: 6/20/2012 (08:06)
Julie
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KELLY122581's Photo KELLY122581 Posts: 614
6/20/12 7:29 A

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Hey everyone!

I was just wondering what nutritional supplements you guys take. When I first went vegan, I was pretty adamant about "vegans can get all their nutrition from food, except B12 which is in fortified cereal. We don't need supplements!" But I've started to realize that it isn't a bad idea to supplement just to make sure. I wouldn't want a health issue to arise that would knock me off the vegan path by necessity.

I was just wondering where you guys find it useful, and/or essential, to back up your diet.

I now take:
-a women's multivitamin (vegan)
-a high dose D2 once a month (no sun in Belgium)
-a sublingual B12

I was also thinking about supplementing with some protein powder or a lysine capsule as well (short-term).... I'm finding it REALLY difficult to hit good protein numbers with my calorie intake range around 1300 a day.

Where are the rest of you on this topic?


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