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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
8/13/13 10:42 A

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www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=282

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/
bm
b.2005.49403304246/pdf


www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evoluti
on
ary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketR>ones


medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary
.c
om/gluconeogenesis


There are some interesting items in each of these links. The last is a definition of gluconeogenesis, which I just included, since it's source is a medical dictionary, so I am pretty sure is a reputable source, and the idea is not doubted. We produce our own glucose. We need 100-130 grams of GLUCOSE ( not carbohydrate ). With gluconeogenesis, and dietary carbohydrates alone, we get enough to fuel our brains. A simple study showing that ketones can be used by the brain as fuel, will make her statement that the brain uses carbohydrates exclusively for energy obviously false. You just need to find one.

I hope this helps. The one about ketone bodies being used by the brain during starvation was a bit long, and I did not read it all yet. Much of them may be useless, or need follow-up. Finding the actual studies isn't as easy as it sounds.

I think a change from carbohydrates to glucose should be a simple matter to argue. We need glucose, not carbohydrates. After establishing that, the idea of how much glucose we need, and how much we produce through glucogenesis need to be established, and any resulting deficit identified. There may be none. If there is, you will need to show ketone bodies can be an alternative fuel.

For me this is incredibly boring to PROVE, but exciting to discuss. Since it has worked for all of us, it is just accepted. Our experience is not accepted as proof though, so have fun with this..lol. I look forward to how you connect the dots, and hope you get it changed.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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ANN5497's Photo ANN5497 Posts: 1,547
8/12/13 3:19 P

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Woubbie
Here is a Dr. Weil article that may be helpful
www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400919/Rethi
nk
ing-Saturated-Fat.html


Keep fighting the good fight!

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage. Anais Nin


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SHRINKSOPRANO Posts: 22
8/12/13 3:12 P

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Here's a recent study from Harvard that may be helpful:

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/20
12/06/when-a-calorie-is-not-just-a-cal
orie/

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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
8/12/13 10:10 A

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Good Luck Woubbie. The biggest defense the " experts " have is that they don't DO any peer-reviewed studies of low carb. Google it, and you get a blank besides Wikipedia.

You might want to point out cultures that eat almost no carbohydrates, like Inuit, and ask how their brain works, with no fuel. Secondly, her own article suggests that your body uses protein for energy ( ketone bodies ). I wonder if my body can use them for energy, why not my brain? Last of all, we produce glucose without ingesting carbohydrates already. If anything, the brain uses glucose, not carbohydrates. Since there is glucose present without carbohydrate, your body could use the ketones, and your brain could use this glucose, if the brain refused to use ketones, which I doubt. This is why we can fast, without falling down in midstep, as our brain shuts off.

You of course need to put this together with info, which will be a research project for you, with a small chance of success..lol.

I have one other statement that needs changing, and may be much easier to get changed.. from Page 2 :

"The risk of many cancers increases when fruits, vegetables, whole grain products, and beans are eliminated from the diet."

I eat fruit, and vegetables daily, in larger quantities than before low carb, and probably more than average, as well as have the ability to eat beans. The insinuation is that low carbers eat no fruit, vegetables or beans. While the statement may be true at face value, it has no reason to be in a fruit, and vegetable-friendly low carb article. It is about as meaningful to the debate as saying the risk of being flattened is increased when you are run over by a bus. These are both true whether on low carb, OR low fat. I can't argue that whole grain products are cut from the low carb menu, but the insinuation that low carb " eliminates " fruits, and vegetables is offensive, and completely erroneous, and for most allows beans.

I think the article needs to be updated. Simple steps, like using the word " preferable source of brain fuel " for carbs, and eliminating the statement that eliminating fruits and veggies causes cancer sound like easy targets, but if they admit one thing is wrong, then they are fallible, which is why they are forcing you to do their work, and prove them wrong. They know this will be a tedious endeavor, and most people will just give up. Their fear is that if one thing is wrong, maybe people will think " What else is wrong ? "

DANDR has a lot of mentions of articles. I will try to read it, and see if I can find some of the articles/studies online. If possible, I will send you a link, but any studies would be ancient, and not sure if our esteemed dietitian would accept them.

I anticipate frustration, and some screaming on your part within the next week. emoticon


"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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AKHEIDI's Photo AKHEIDI Posts: 540
8/11/13 10:49 P

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Go Woub Go! In the book review topic, Vicki has several books that have all the info you'd need for your basic LC facts- I've read a few and am reading Good Calories, Bad Calories now and it has loads of foot note citing the sources for the info. At least when they responded they were nice, others haven't been so lucky.

1. Stop wasting money- Save money

2. Exercise- do something every day

3. Get organized- mise en place

4. Write a letter by hand at least once a week.

Every day this side of the sod is a good day-
not sure who said it

My animals make me happy, some people not so much- a bumper sticker


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TJANDJESS's Photo TJANDJESS Posts: 651
8/11/13 10:22 P

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Ketones are not a bad thing for normal people. This process is what turns protein into fuel for our brain. Diabetic ketoacidosis is bad but only happens in type 1 diabetics.

Active Duty Army mom


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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE SparkPoints: (71,361)
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8/11/13 9:49 P

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I'm not going to try to turn this article into a low carb love letter, I just want to correct the most egregious mistakes. To wit:

"In fact, the human brain depends exclusively on carbohydrates for its energy." Becky Hand knows that's wrong. If she wants to say that a certain percentage of brain cells depend exclusively, then fine, but she can't say all brain cells depend on glucose "exclusively". Maybe "largely", if that's her bias.

BAM! Peer-reviewed:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14769487

"Ketone bodies make an important contribution to brain energy production and biosynthetic processes when glucose becomes scarce."

Sounds to me like the brain can use more than one fuel.

Edited by: WOUBBIE at: 8/11/2013 (21:50)
~ Declutter my current batch of paper and clerical To-Do's by
~ Getting all my daily personal clerical upkeep tasks done in the first hour of the day and
~ Scheduling my workday workouts like I would schedule a meeting and
~ Scheduling a defined half hour for lunch, when I work/play only on personal business


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FITKRIS's Photo FITKRIS Posts: 1,095
8/11/13 7:20 P

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I also read this article back in 2007. I haven't been to Dr. Peter Attia's website in a while, but I bet he has some links to scientific articles:
eatingacademy.com/


“One of the most important keys to Success is having the discipline to do what you know you should do, even when you don't feel like doing it.” - Unknown


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NAYPOOIE's Photo NAYPOOIE Posts: 6,074
8/11/13 6:18 P

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Looks like I read that article back in 2007. I think Becky has mellowed since then, but it certainly needs correction.

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JLKL1980's Photo JLKL1980 Posts: 1,151
8/11/13 4:25 P

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I think this team can be an example to other members if we stay strong and informed about the lowcarb lifestyle. Our continued success will draw other members to our team. There's nothing better than success to confound the doctors and the so-called experts and their peers. Our stories will inspire others to take the journey of health with us.

Has anyone seen the Gerson Diet documentary? I first saw it on Netflix. Max Gerson was a German American doctor who claimed to have the cure for cancer and other illnesses. His daughter Charlotte (whom he had cured from bone tuberculosis I believe) took over his mission after he died. Someone had stolen his book and journals with all of his scientific findings and patient successes. He has to rewrite it all again. Twice, he took his blood when he felt ill and discovered arsenic. The second time, he died of arsenic poisoning. Of course, none of his peers stood up for him. They called him a quack like they did Dr. Atkins.

Here's a link to some books about him and his daughter.

www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=g
er
son+diet&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadiR>d=1695684389&ref=pd_sl_69l7tv79u5_e


Edited by: JLKL1980 at: 8/11/2013 (18:07)
Joy

George S. Patton-You're never beaten until you admit it.


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SIMPLEMAW Posts: 4,136
8/11/13 3:55 P

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Remember, Woubbie, that she asked for peer reviewed articles, not text books. There's a world of difference between the two, including in terms of authority. There's probably at least one textbook touting the party line for every one that touts the low carb line. If you're going to take this farther, I suggest you give her what she asks for. Otherwise she's going to think and say that you don't have any good authority for your viewpoint, and certainly not enough to buck mainstream.

LUCYSUNFLOWER's Photo LUCYSUNFLOWER Posts: 7,158
8/11/13 2:55 P

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Woubbie, you're either couragous or bonkers! LOL I think some of the experts on this site are so marinated in conventional, one-size-fits-all, myopic nutritional thinking that nothing will dislodge them - their careers are invested in what they believe. I can't even read Spark articles anymore because they offer only a narrow, rigid path for healthy eating and I feel so defeated and substandard after having that stuff thrown at my brain!

I wish you luck, but please do not piss off the Spark gods and get kicked off the site or thrown in the volcano - I need you!!!

emoticon

Leslie

"Normal is not something to aspire to - it's something to get away from." -- Jodie Foster

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein


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8/11/13 1:36 P

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Well, I think I'll be taking a quick trip to my local library and borrowing a college-level text book on Biochemistry. She's entitled to her own opinions but not her own facts. Good thing Max is off to college later this week, I guess. I'll need the extra time to rewrite her sorry mess of misinformation. If they don't accept the rewrite then it's time to call her out for malpractice.

~ Declutter my current batch of paper and clerical To-Do's by
~ Getting all my daily personal clerical upkeep tasks done in the first hour of the day and
~ Scheduling my workday workouts like I would schedule a meeting and
~ Scheduling a defined half hour for lunch, when I work/play only on personal business


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ANN5497's Photo ANN5497 Posts: 1,547
8/11/13 12:50 P

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That article has been on SP since at least September 2009 because I apparently earned Spark points for reading it 9-2-2009.

I have all but given up trying to combat Becky Hand's misinformation. SP appears to respect her as knowledgeable about nutrition and biology although she regularly cites "facts" that have no basis in medical science.

"Peer review" is not necessarily a path to truth. Describing an article or study as peer-reviewed simply means that a few similarly competent experts reviewed it and deemed it accurate. But what if all the so-called experts in a given field are all suffering from the same misconception? Peer review is an illusion of veracity.

One thing we can and should continue to do is post comments on these bogus articles pointing out the misinformation. And when we do, we should direct SP members to sources of real experts on carbs (Taubes, Carpender) and encourage them to join this group.

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage. Anais Nin


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SIMPLEMAW Posts: 4,136
8/11/13 11:21 A

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It's certainly not anything that I'm willing to take on!

A couple of suggestions, though...

First, you could ask Dana Carpender to respond. I know that she reads scientific articles and could probably find you some.

Second, Good Calories, Bad Calories has a huge bibliography. You could look for ones that cover the areas you are concerned about. I don't know that it tells which are peer reviewed, though.

I was just looking at something, probably a cookbook, that said that diabetics need to reduce their carbs, but not to eliminate them altogether. Three or four servings of carb based items per meal is about right. Actually, I think it was an article about "5 Common Misconceptions About Diabetes" on the health board of AOL. The misconception was that you had to eliminate all carbs. The truth was that you should/could have 3 or 4 carby servings per meal.

JLKL1980's Photo JLKL1980 Posts: 1,151
8/11/13 10:36 A

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OMG - I just read the article and the amount of servings for grains and starches was huge. What was it 10 or 11 servings? It reminds me of the PreDiabetic meal plan that I used for 2 months and was gaining weight and belly fat.

Actually, all of the Atkins books have a lot of facts about the whole ketone process. And wheat was brought here from the middle east (Egypt). I can't remember where I read about this, but that is why Native Americans tend to develop diabetes because their bodies haven't had enough time to adapt to this type of food. Can you imagine our ancestors being able to eat all those servings of fruit and grain each day, not to mention all the dairy and meat and veggies? They would get nothing done because they would be shoveling food in their mouth all day and night.

Are you sure you even want to bother refuting this article? You know how they made fun of Dr. Atkins and he had his case studies as evidence.

What I think would be wonderful is if SparkPeople would have meal plans for lowcarb groups. But then they would be going against what the government says we should be eating.

Once I get around today, I will try to find more books about ketosis and I will post them here for you.

Good luck.

Joy

George S. Patton-You're never beaten until you admit it.


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TJANDJESS's Photo TJANDJESS Posts: 651
8/11/13 4:25 A

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Living Low Carb by Jonny Bowden debunks a lot of myths held by doctors on carbohydrates. Basically, he says that protein and fat can be broken down into energy for the body to use and that a large amount of carbohydrates is not needed.
All these doctors and nutritionists that think we need "whole grain" carbohydrates are forgetting that our ancestors that hunted and gathered only got carbohydrates from vegetables and fruits. There was no bread, rice, potatoes, etc..

Active Duty Army mom


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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE SparkPoints: (71,361)
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8/10/13 11:41 P

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Someone here posted a comment about an article that really got her down/concerned about eating low carb. I read it and it is FULL of errors and misinformation. So I put in a help ticket to get it corrected. They replied to me speedy quick, but want ME to provide them with "peer-reviewed" studies refuting the article's information. Here's the exchange:

-----Original Message-----
From: WOUBBIE
Sent: 8/10/2013 7:30:06 PM
Subject: Factual misinformation in article from user WOUBBIE [2563800242]

QUESTION: Factual misinformation in article
DETAILS: Hi! This article:

www.sparkpeople.com/resource/nutriti
on
_articles.asp?id=590


is just FULL of factual errors and misinformation, starting with "the human brain depends exclusively on carbohydrates for its energy". Absolutely not true. Some cells do require glucose, but ketones are a perfectly adequate fuel for the rest.

Next, "Some carbs (simple) break down quickly into glucose while others (complex) are slowly broken down and enter the bloodstream more gradually." She has this backwards, I believe. Complex carbs (aka "starch") actually begin to break down into glucose in the mouth through the action of the enzyme amylase.

Well, I could go on, but I really think you should request a reliable third party to fact-check this article before anyone else reads it and gets the wrong ideas about carbohydrate metabolism.

Thanks! Sorry if this is the wrong place to address this but there doesn't seem to be any other way of pointing it out.

USERNAME: WOUBBIE
Question Submitted on 8/10/2013 8:30:06 PM

Hi,

Thank you for your feedback and I will pass it along. The information in that article is based on research studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If there is newer information, also published in a reputable journal, that contradicts what we have referenced, can you provide the citations so we can look into it further?

SparkPeople Support
support@sparkpeople.com
www.SparkPeople.com

So... I need some thoughts on how to reply. The CORRECT answer is "Look in any biochemistry textbook." but I don't think that's going to fly. Wikipedia has perfectly good info (actually, their entry on "Carbohydrate" is very low-carb friendly), but most folks won't accept them as a reference. I'd appreciate your help. I'd like to see this heinous article fixed or removed.

Edited by: WOUBBIE at: 8/10/2013 (23:42)
~ Declutter my current batch of paper and clerical To-Do's by
~ Getting all my daily personal clerical upkeep tasks done in the first hour of the day and
~ Scheduling my workday workouts like I would schedule a meeting and
~ Scheduling a defined half hour for lunch, when I work/play only on personal business


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