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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE Posts: 5,854
4/13/13 7:18 P

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LOL! Yup, a lot of medical jargon, sorry!

Readers Digest condensed version is that science has spent a lot of time analyzing how foods raise your blood sugar on the assumption that it's the high sugar that causes the inflammation that drives illness. This little study points out that everyone has ASSUMED that, as blood sugar goes up, so does insulin.

But then they proceeded to prove that that's not exactly how it works. Eating beef caused INSULIN to increase, but not BLOOD SUGAR. This must somehow be related to the original question in this thread about being in ketosis but still producing glucose from a low carb source like meat, ie. does eating too much protein stall your weight loss.

Edited by: WOUBBIE at: 4/13/2013 (19:25)
Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labour, and could never have existed if labour had not first existed. Labour is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln


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DIXIEDOODLEDEAN's Photo DIXIEDOODLEDEAN Posts: 967
4/13/13 3:31 P

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That really was clear as mud. Help me Lord..I know not what I do..LOL

type with you later. Junebug


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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE Posts: 5,854
4/13/13 1:07 P

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Here's the original research document:

ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264
.l
ong


I don't think they came to ANY conclusions, more like head-scratching, to be honest. It's been known that carbs increase insulin response, but protein? It somehow relates, though, to the realization that too much protein in your diet somehow also can stimulate fat storage instead of fat loss, and insulin is clearly the big player in fat storage.

Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labour, and could never have existed if labour had not first existed. Labour is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln


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DIXIEDOODLEDEAN's Photo DIXIEDOODLEDEAN Posts: 967
4/13/13 12:14 P

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Is this like insulin resistance...where the body sends plenty of insulin into your blood but the cells don't know how to use it? I read the article and couldn't figure out what we are suppose to take from it. Or how to check...

type with you later. Junebug


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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE Posts: 5,854
4/13/13 11:51 A

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I stumbled onto this interesting little article while trying to understand the difference between glycemic index, glycemic load, and (a rather newer concept) insulin index:

www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm

This stood out immediately: "They tested only 38 foods and found that glycemic and insulin scores were highly correlated. There (sic) most interesting finding was that 'protein-rich foods and bakery products (rich in fat and refined carbohydrate) elicited insulin responses that were disproportionately higher than their glycemic responses'."

So, even though you test your blood sugar and it doesn't rise all that much after a protein-rich meal, your insulin levels MAY rise disproportionately higher. I'll be interested to see more research in that area.

Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labour, and could never have existed if labour had not first existed. Labour is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln


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DIXIEDOODLEDEAN's Photo DIXIEDOODLEDEAN Posts: 967
4/11/13 5:04 P

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Excess protein turns to sugar in body. That is how you can gain if your body is doing this. I agree with Birgit that it is all in what you are doing and how your body works with it.

About fat bombs. There are many ways to make them and I have two or three that I love. One is fat bomb fudge which has a small amount of nuts and is yummy.

type with you later. Junebug


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MOXIE6's Photo MOXIE6 Posts: 585
4/11/13 2:59 P

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Average woman...you are not one Birgit!!!! You Rock!!! So somewhere between couch potato and Birgit.....

And even though I work out and do some intense stuff it seems not to matter if I eat 1300 or 2000. Ugh! So far my ratios, number of calories, activity make no difference to my body. Of course I just keep on since I'm healthier for it.

Similar to the new plate being meat as an accompaniment to lots of veggies. In most LC with fat of course and not a plate of grains!

I am starting my ticker again since starting low carb.

You have no control over what you weigh...only what you do.
Progress NOT Perfection!


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,349
4/11/13 2:09 P

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I think taking in exercise levels, height and weight is important. The average woman who does not exercise may have enough with 45 grams, I try to exercise for at least 2 hours a day and would not go much under 80 or below 2500 calories/day.

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MOXIE6's Photo MOXIE6 Posts: 585
4/11/13 1:35 P

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People eat way too much protein in this society in general. Not even LC folks, just folks. The average woman needs around 45 gr a day,

Since doing the Fat Fast it's helped me get my perspective on protein. I made a bunch of mini-burgers of 1.5 oz a piece. That's how much my "ice cream scoop" holds. I eat 1 egg at breakfast. etc.

My goal is 85% fat but I'm coming in around 80%.



I am starting my ticker again since starting low carb.

You have no control over what you weigh...only what you do.
Progress NOT Perfection!


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WANDERLUSTROUS's Photo WANDERLUSTROUS Posts: 482
4/11/13 10:15 A

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Hi Woubbie and all,

I trust you guys more than I trust my doctor sometimes, so I'm taking your advice and giving eating less protein a try.

Yesterday I had 84 grams (within my dictated 70-90 grams). I also had 152 grams of fat. That is a protein to fat ratio of 19%-76%. 76% fat is the highest ratio I've been able to deliver in a day.

I did it with coconut oil, olive oil, butter, mayonnaise, and sour cream. I made and tried a "fat bomb". It wasn't really tasty (I barely added any Splenda. I try to stay away from artificial sweeteners.) But hey, if it works, I'll eat 3 a day.

I hope this feed has been helpful for people. I know it's helped me. I wasn't really "afraid" of fat. I just couldn't believe that a 200-300 calorie difference in the amount of protein you are eating can get in the way of weight loss.

I'm sure there is something else going on with me too. It's probably hormonal. My estrogen and estrodiol levels are pre-menopausal (have been since I was 25- I'm now 27). But that's while I'm birth control. Now that I'm off, she's going to retest to determine what my levels are when I don't have artificial hormones in me.

I don't have hypothyroidism in the traditional sense. My blood test reveals that I'm within range (I'm a 2.5 or something). However, she doesn't think that's optimal, so I do take Armour Thyroid. I have for 31 days now. I don't feel different. I'm on the second to lowest dose, so it may be adjusted with time.

My doctor hasn't called me back with a course of action yet. She wanted to reach out to colleagues before she decided what she should test for. In the mean time, I'm following her advice thanks to a little convincing from you guys.



Edited by: WANDERLUSTROUS at: 4/11/2013 (10:16)
"The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates


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DIXIEDOODLEDEAN's Photo DIXIEDOODLEDEAN Posts: 967
4/11/13 7:43 A

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Today w/o reason, i'm showing a 4 lbs gain. AND one additional pound since I've been up. I have not had anything but two pills and a swallow of water. Thinking water retention is at play...ya think? lol. Anyway, since my VERY high blood pressure issue it has been just maintain weight status until this eye opening morning. My fasting glucose is 96 and keton .5 so I'm happy. Must not stress, must sleep more, must smile:)

If you are struggling with getting the keton number up I highly recommend bone broth soup. I make the bone broth once a month and freeze it in weekly servings. Then I add coconut oil, some meat, veg, lemon juice, spices, (lots of spices/herbs for detox like turmeric.)

Birgit, question for you...did you do any detoxification for heavy metal? I'm working with naturalpath friend who is getting her degree so I'm her project. We are going to do a liver detox and from everything I've provided her she thinks heavy metal is part of problem. We are working slow because of recent issues which put me on medications for blood pressure.

Also, did you supplement with Iodine? My recent visit to endocrinology doctor was hugh eye-opener. He belives metformin in public water system/iodine is a joke, yada yada yada...I'm returning to my old endo doctor....can't understand 1/2 of what he says but he runs test and works from them..

Edited by: DIXIEDOODLEDEAN at: 4/11/2013 (07:45)
type with you later. Junebug


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,349
4/11/13 12:10 A

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I do think cutting protein will help and I don't think you can go too high on fat.
Another good resource on this topic is Peter Attia's blog www.eatingacademy.com where you can read many articles about ketosis plus his very interesting personal story.
I agree that hormones are a likely cause for lack of weight loss. There are many possibilities but thyroid is the most likely. Hypothyroidism can either be caused by autoimmune disease and is then called Hashimoto's disease or it can be caused by a mineral imbalance. Very often the thyroid can't function normally because of selenium or Iodine deficiency, sometimes because of heavy-metal poisening. I probably had some of both as my thyroid is doing much better and I only get occasional mild symptoms. Checking for hypothyroidism should involve several tests:
TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone), free T4 and free T3 and a test for autoimmune thyroid disease.
If you do have thyroid issues there may be dietary things to consider as well to support the thyroid.

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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LIVINMYDREAMS's Photo LIVINMYDREAMS Posts: 3,524
4/10/13 9:42 P

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I was going to say that I run, usually 60-80%.

Faith
RTKR - 6/23/11 - 305
Sept 2011 - 315
LTKR - 7/26/12 - 257
Jan 1st 2013 - 241
Jan 1st 2014- 231
Jan 1st 2015 - goal Onederland !!!**************************** One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar!


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EXOTEC's Photo EXOTEC Posts: 3,327
4/10/13 9:28 P

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The values I've seen are between 60-80% fat.
YMMV.


...the problem with people these days is
they've forgotten we're really just animals ...
(attributation forgotten)

We did not create the web of life; we are but a strand in it.
~attributed to Chief Seattle

We don't have souls. We ARE souls. We have bodies.
~C.S. Lewis


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SINNIBLONDE's Photo SINNIBLONDE Posts: 2,977
4/10/13 7:35 P

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A reminder, please, of the percentage of fat we should be eating.

My daily amount floats around 63-70% or so. Is that enough, or too much, or?

Thanks!

Debb
XOX

DIXIEDOODLEDEAN's Photo DIXIEDOODLEDEAN Posts: 967
4/10/13 7:29 P

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I'm in a struggle right now. I can not keep ketosis up at the .5 level. I can flirt around it. But I so struggle with perect .5 or higher. and I have to address the high bp issues plus the doctor's "you need to change" lecture...

type with you later. Junebug


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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE Posts: 5,854
4/10/13 6:51 P

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I don't think they CAN be mutually exclusive. Take someone who eats zero carbs. They get virtually no carb from their diets, yet they produce enough glucose to run the brain cells that require it. Yet all their other energy needs are being met by producing ketones. They will first use the fuel from the food they've recently eaten, and then use their stored body fat. I mean, of course, they DO have stored sugar in their livers so maybe the body uses that first, but at some point you need to replenish the glucose/glycogen one way or another.

I do think your doctor's recommendation to eat less protein is sound. We tend to still think of low carb as high protein and it really isn't. Unless you're very athletic and in serious training the lower protein levels are more than adequate to repair physical damage etc.

I actually had to start cutting my protein back as well. I eat a lot of chicken cause it's so cheap, but the protein to fat ratio tends to put me over on protein a bit. I've been at about the same weight for about a year while I tinker with this that and the other thing trying to find both what works to get my weight moving down again and (every bit as important) what I can actually DO every single day for the rest of my life. It's no use telling myself to give up something if I'm not yet ready to, so I gradually wean myself away. I haven't had peanuts or peanut butter, for example, for a couple of months, but it was a staple of my sanity for the 18 months before that!

I would not be at all surprised if you find that your other hormones are involved here. Low thyroid is probably one of the most under-diagnosed conditions out there. I have 75% of the symptoms (no major fatigue, though) and my thyroid levels have always shown as dead normal. I think Medicine does not currently have a good understanding of the inter-relationship of these things.

Edited by: WOUBBIE at: 4/10/2013 (18:59)
Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labour, and could never have existed if labour had not first existed. Labour is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln


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WANDERLUSTROUS's Photo WANDERLUSTROUS Posts: 482
4/10/13 3:50 P

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Woubbie, does that mean if you're in ketosis, you're not eating too much protein?

At least not too much so as to put your body into glucogenesis and kick you out of ketosis? I don't know if glucogenesis and ketosis are mutually exclusive.

I'm just curious if what my doctor said is true. Do I really need to eat between 70-90 grams of protein rather than the 90-120 I've been eating. I'm eating a comparable amount of fat with each gram of protein.

She read me a quote from "Protein Power" after reviewing my fat/muscle/bone mass on a high quality scale. She's at a loss for why I'm not losing, and at the beginning of my appointment, suggested lowering the amount of protein I eat (thereby reducing the amount of calories I eat) may help. It would only make a 200-300 calorie/day difference.

She offered me phentermine to curb my appetite to eat less. I don't need it. The low carb diet already curbs my appetite. I was just eating a bit every few hours because I thought it was necessary to keep my metabolism going steadily throughout the day. She said to only eat when I'm hungry now.

She thinks there's something deeper that needs to be assessed and is reaching out to her colleagues to find out our next step. It may be an enzyme deficiency or a hormonal imbalance. She's just stumped why I haven't lost a single pound since day 10. I'm into month 3 now. I don't think she's had a patient like me before.

In the mean time, I've been trying to do a little research on my own to find out about protein consumption compared to ketosis. I'm always a deep purple. I have been nearly every day for 2 months.


Edited by: WANDERLUSTROUS at: 4/10/2013 (15:52)
"The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates


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WOUBBIE's Photo WOUBBIE Posts: 5,854
4/10/13 3:39 P

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Ketosis and glycolysis exist simultaneously. They must. Your body requires glucose for certain brain function, so even if you get 95% of your energy needs from fat metabolism you will still have (you had BETTER have!) at least a teaspoon's worth of glucose in your blood at all times.

Gluconeogenesis likely stalls people (or causes them to gain again) after an extended period of losses. (It probably has to do with a damaged metabolism.) For the most comprehensive info on it google "nutritional ketosis". Jimmy Moore is the best known n=1 experimenter in this area, but he's basing his ideas on Phinney and Volek's books:

www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbo
hy
drate-Living/dp/0983490708


If you're in ketosis and still not losing it certainly won't hurt to cut back your protein and up your fat. Most of us get way more protein than our bodies need anyway.

Edited by: WOUBBIE at: 4/10/2013 (15:48)
Labour is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labour, and could never have existed if labour had not first existed. Labour is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln


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EXOTEC's Photo EXOTEC Posts: 3,327
4/10/13 3:19 P

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I'm also in the "huh?" group...although, ketosis is measured for low-carbers as an indicator of FAT metabolism. When you're in fat burning mode, you should register ketones.

A good question. I'll see what I can find on 'net research.


...the problem with people these days is
they've forgotten we're really just animals ...
(attributation forgotten)

We did not create the web of life; we are but a strand in it.
~attributed to Chief Seattle

We don't have souls. We ARE souls. We have bodies.
~C.S. Lewis


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LIVINMYDREAMS's Photo LIVINMYDREAMS Posts: 3,524
4/10/13 2:29 P

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I don't know for sure either but if too much protein turns into sugar so it probably would affect ketosis.

Faith
RTKR - 6/23/11 - 305
Sept 2011 - 315
LTKR - 7/26/12 - 257
Jan 1st 2013 - 241
Jan 1st 2014- 231
Jan 1st 2015 - goal Onederland !!!**************************** One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar!


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SINNIBLONDE's Photo SINNIBLONDE Posts: 2,977
4/10/13 2:03 P

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very interesting question. Although I do not know FOR SURE, I would THINK that keeping carbs really low, or non-existent, would mean ketosis is still happening, regardless of high or medium protein and fat intake.

Anyone know for sure?

Debb :)

WANDERLUSTROUS's Photo WANDERLUSTROUS Posts: 482
4/10/13 1:01 P

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If you are eating too much protein, will you still be in ketosis? I have been reading dark purple nearly every day since I started over two months ago.

I was eating around 90 grams-120 grams per day. My doctor suggested I lower it to 70-90 grams with an equal amount of fat.

Edited by: WANDERLUSTROUS at: 4/10/2013 (13:51)
"The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates


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