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TOPIC:   Confused about Cordain and what we here do 


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LADYROSE
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10/22/12 1:17 P

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My personal reason for making sure I get enough saturated fat: Hormones!!

www.juleedavis.com/PDFdocs/HormoneCascade.
pdf


Basically cholesterol is THE building block for hormones: adrenal/steroid hormones, and the girlie and manly ones as well.

Honestly I think my current hormonal issues are due to 1) stress, and 2) buying into the idea that meat/fat/saturated fat is bad for you but grains are sooo good for you... and living that way for a looooong time.

Steph
ladyrois.blogspot.com/

Take the words “genetic freak” out of your vocabulary and substitute the words “hard working, committed, and focused” and you will have removed one obstacle to doing things you never thought possible. Top Dawg

The BOSS Rules: Train Beyond Our Self-imposed Strength Limitations.

"Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."
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SAGELADY2
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10/21/12 11:36 A

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I limit my fruits just because of the insulin response I get from it. I eat about a quarter of a cup of frozen blueberries on a salad or a medium apple. Strawberries in season. That's about it.

As far as the fats go, I do love my bacon and ham. I have 3-5 pieces of bacon on my bacon days and will have 2-3 slices of a lean, black forest ham on ham days. Usually on a salad or for breakfast. I use butter when I want the extra fat and have a concoction of coconut oil, cocoa and peanut butter melted together into little muffin tin sized treats. I'll eat one of those every other day or so. Normally, I'll use Pam spray to cook with. Just to limit the calories. If I have the calories to spare I'd prefer to have my butter ON something rather than cooking with it.

I read all the books and blogs and hashed together what works for me. Started with Atkins, moved to Mark Sisson, then Peter Attia. I think eating fruits in season works well. I agree with Egalitaire that the modern fruits are way too sweet. I go for the old fashioned ones if I can find them. Heirloom varieties. If I ever get it going again, I'll re-do the garden with tons of heirlooms.


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UGOOGLY
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10/19/12 8:01 P

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I for one do not tolerate much fructose at all. That is how I came about finding the paleo diet in the first place. Apples, pears and grapes are the worst offenders for me, so I stick to berries (I'm lucky that where I live, a lot of it grows wild). I would'nt say it causes insulin spikes as I"ve never had a '3 pm' crash from them, but the ibs symptoms I get when consuming them is enough to tell me to avoid them. I can have either 3 grapes max, .5 a medium apple or 1 pear, and thats all I can take before I feel sick.

Sarah
-----------------------------

To succeed in your goals is to go outside your comfort zone, push yourself constantly and realize that you only get back what you put in, so give it 110% all the time, everytime!


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CONRADBURK
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10/19/12 8:00 P

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In Loren Cordain's latest book, "The Paleo Answer," chapter 2 is entitled "The Truth about Saturated Fat." His new advice is the following: "If you are faithful to the basic principles of the Paleo Diet, consumption of saturated fats within the range of 10 to 15 percent of your daily calories will not increase your risk for heart disease."

Most of the fat that I consume comes from extra virgin olive oil. Therefore it is probably mostly monounsaturated fat. I have chosen to use olive oil instead of coconut oil. I have reservations about the superiority of coconut oil, though I will admit that I don't have any evidence to support my position. I will say that there is strong epidemiological evidence for the health benefits of the Mediterranean Diet with lots of olive oil, fruits, and vegetables. I will stick with the olive oil for now. I have grown fond of the taste of olive oil on my vegetables.
emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon




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CONRADBURK
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10/19/12 7:45 P

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It is my understanding that fructose does not spike insulin levels, but does cause AGE's to form in your body, which you want to avoid. The research on AGE's is very new. Fructose has nearly a ten times greater propensity to form these AGE's. AGE's are formed when the sugar in your cells reacts with proteins (think of enzymes) to chemically bond to them, making them unable to perform their functions.

However, I would point out that fruits contain not only fructose, but also nearly similar amounts of glucose and sucrose. Sucrose is a two unit sugar made of one fructose and one glucose which are chemically attached. The sucrose is readily digested, forming the separated fructose and glucose sugars. It is my belief that blood sugar elevation from eating fruits would be from the glucose and sucrose which they contain. I am not an expert in biochemistry, but my PhD is in organic chemistry. I could be wrong about the biochemistry of fructose.

Slowing down absorption of sugars with fat or protein seems like a good strategy to me.
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EGALITAIRE
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10/19/12 3:45 P

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I am enjoying reading this discussion - very interesting perspectives. I certainly don't feel like I have the answers, but I am enjoying the process of discovery. I appreciate CONRADBURK's points about fruits, micro and macro-nutrient mixes.

I have chosen to limit my fruit intake primarily due to fructose's propensity to spike insulin levels. I am not a devotee of any specific doctrine, but trying to synthesize all the information and opinions out there.

Peter Attia's writing has certainly influenced my thinking about insulin. When I eat fruit, I usually try to ingest it with some fat as that apparently slows it's absorption into our bloodstream and therefore the magnitude of the insulin response.

Loving all the perspectives



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HOUNDLOVER1
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10/19/12 3:42 P

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Conrad,
thanks for sharing your perspective. If I understand correctly you are saying that while eating a high-fat diet that fruit would affect you negatively while it does not if you eat a moderate fat diet? Is it that you can't handle as many calories when eating more fruit (and therefore more sugar)?
One thing that I have not researched thoroughly is whether there are phytonutrients that we get from fruit, but not from any vegetables. That would be a good reason to include a significant amount of fruit in the diet. Right now my body does not seem to be able to tolerate much fruit at all as my H A1c test showed. But I'm hoping that in the long run my insulin sensitivity improves to the point where a little more fruit will work.
How would you define "moderate" when it comes to % of macronutrients?
I agree completely on the issue of fruit and veggies being bred for too much sugar content. I have just ordered 2 books on wild foods after hearing a recent Jimmy Moore blog on the topic. Whether it is practical to seek out wild foods for their higher nutrient profile and lower sugar levels/higher fiber I can't say yet but I'm hoping to learn more about it very soon.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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JAZZID
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10/19/12 3:35 P

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I agree with you CONRADBURK . I personally don't have a problem with fruit. It does not affect me adversely for weight loss. I always pair it with a protein and a little fat. I eat mostly berries, but I do eat apples and tropical fruit like mangoes, pineapple as well. I limit portion size and don't over do it, but I definitely include it in my daily rotation.

I also feel that Paleo/Primal Blueprint etc., is not a "one size" fits all lifestyle. Everyone is different and we all must find what works for us a individuals. This is a great forum for exchanging our thoughts on the subject... I am learning a lot! emoticon

Edited by: JAZZID at: 10/19/2012 (15:57)

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CONRADBURK
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10/19/12 3:17 P

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When I tried doing a high fat diet, I had to strictly limit my fruits. The fruits you find today in the supermarket are higher in sugars than the fruits available to primitive men. However, they are also high in vitamins, minerals and phytonutrients. Today's fruits have been selectively bred to be sweeter. I believe that this has compromised their health benefits. I also worry about fruits having fructose, which is a much more powerful AGE (advanced glycation end product) producer than glucose.

On the whole, it is my opinion that the benefits of eating fruits outweigh the risks. I am choosing to stick with eating fruits for now until specific evidence is available to prove that eating them is associated with elevated health risks. I do avoid grapefruit because it is known to inhibit liver enzymes and interfere with medications. I don't eat bananas because I am allergic to them.

I believe that the health benefits any diet is going to correlate with the amount of vitamins, minerals, cofactors and other phytonutrients, not to the relative proportions of fats, carbs and protein. I have read Gary Taube's books on the health risks of high carbs, but am not convinced by his arguments that a high fat diet is healthier than a diet that is moderate in fats, carbs and proteins where the carbs come from fruits and vegetables, not from grains.
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HONDABLONDE
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10/19/12 1:36 P

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I'm like you, Birgit -- no fruit because of the sugars (I am addicted to that too, so better avoid it, just like I avoid bread, potatoes, and all that).

I've been using coconut oil for cooking/frying/sautee-ing and coconut cream in my coffee as well... and I am doing great!

Debb
:)


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HOUNDLOVER1
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10/19/12 1:31 P

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Conrad,
I eat a ton of saturated fat and a ton of veggies of many varieties (not fruit because of the sugar). I actually stir-fry most of my veggies that I don't eat raw in a ton of coconut oil, the most saturated fat there is. Why do you think you can't do both?
Just curious. emoticon
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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JAZZID
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10/19/12 9:03 A

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... the bulk of my fat comes from Olive oil and other mono-saturated fats. I will use coconut oil and I do eat some bacon. But I would say my intake of saturated fats is relatively low.



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CONRADBURK
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10/19/12 8:03 A

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I follow Lorain Cordain's Paleo Diet and don't do high saturated fat. He has modified his position on saturated fat somewhat in his newest book, "The Paleo Answer." My own view on the saturated fat dilemma is that if you eat a high amount of saturated fat, you will have to decrease your consumption of fruits and vegetables. This will give you less vitamins, minerals and phytonutrients. A good rule of thumb is to avoid any food that is processed.
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HOUNDLOVER1
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10/18/12 10:29 P

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Knowledge changes so quickly nowadays that a book from 2010 may already be a little outdated. I read somewhere that Loren Cordain has changed his perspective on saturated fat earlier this year.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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UGOOGLY
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10/18/12 8:13 P

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Ladyrose, thanks for that link. My eyes are wide open now regarding some questions I had and now I want to read The Paleo Answer... maybe it will be the first book I buy on my new Kobo! What a great way to christen it lol.

Sarah
-----------------------------

To succeed in your goals is to go outside your comfort zone, push yourself constantly and realize that you only get back what you put in, so give it 110% all the time, everytime!


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DIXIEDOODLEDEAN
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10/18/12 5:54 P

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I can not tell you where I read this..Recently I read that the nitrates we worry about in bacon is not a real issue..just like mercury in fish is bogus...if the fish has a balance..I can not afford grass fed butter for everyday use so I keep kerrygold on counter for full flavor on things but cook and do most other with regular butter.

Find your balance and learn each day. It will come together..

type with you later. Junebug


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HONDABLONDE
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10/18/12 2:24 P

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I have also heard to exclude bacon, due to its processing.. same as ham, and other processed meats/foods.

Personally, I love bacon, so I eat it.

Debb :)


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LADYROSE
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10/18/12 12:19 P

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That was one thing that I immeditatley disliked about his book! BUT if you listen to robbwolf.com/2011/12/27/the-paleo-solution
-episode-112/
Robb Wolf talks with Cordain (who is Wolf's mentor and teacher) and he talks about how the low saturated fat was part of his publisher wanting to get the book sold... Remember: Pro-fat is a new thing and at the time the book came out, it was one of the few like it.

He's now able to speak more freely about having a higher intake of saturated fat in the diet.

:)

Steph

Steph
ladyrois.blogspot.com/

Take the words “genetic freak” out of your vocabulary and substitute the words “hard working, committed, and focused” and you will have removed one obstacle to doing things you never thought possible. Top Dawg

The BOSS Rules: Train Beyond Our Self-imposed Strength Limitations.

"Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."
C. Robbin


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EGALITAIRE
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10/18/12 11:13 A

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Welcome to the world of Paleo. There are a lot of different opinions under the umbrella of 'Paleo". I am a strong advocate of doing as much research as possible to make an informed decision, but there is so much divergent "evidence" and opinions, that at some point we probably have to make a decision that just "feels" right for us.

Then test what works for you to help you achieve your health goals, whether they be weight related, anti-inflammatory, better GI health, more energy.

We are an experiment of one - Paleo/primal is really just a framework - most of the research has not been done on humans or all the variables have not been isolated, so we can never know for sure.

Mark Sisson, another author and Paleo-pundit, is generally in flavour of meats that are grass-fed, as there is a significant difference in the omega 3 and 6 balance compared to grain-fed.

Here's a link to an article from Mark Sisson with another perspective. You can go into the archives on the marksdailyapple site and search just about any health related topic - well researched and considered opinion, but still opinion, as is Robb Wolfe, and Cordain, and Peter Attia, etc, etc.


www.marksdailyapple.com/bacon/#axzz29fClcg
nh



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JAZZID
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10/18/12 11:09 A

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I follow more Robb Wolf and the Primal Blueprint. I read them all to create my own unique program.



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UGOOGLY
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10/18/12 10:59 A

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I'll admit, I'm not fully done the book of the updated Paleo Diet book, but Dr. Cordain is all anti-bacon, anti-fatty meats (due to high omega 6's I think is his concern) and anti-60ish % daily fat intake.

Did I miss something? Because everyone here LOVEs the bacon, cooking with bacon grease and their fatty meats. The book I'm reading is revised from 2010. If hes so against it, then why does everyone here advise it?

I'm just confuzzelled.

Sarah
-----------------------------

To succeed in your goals is to go outside your comfort zone, push yourself constantly and realize that you only get back what you put in, so give it 110% all the time, everytime!


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