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DBCLARINET's Photo DBCLARINET Posts: 1,113
1/29/10 8:27 A

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Hey, since MDA came up, he just posted an article about dairy. www.marksdailyapple.com/dairy-intole
ra
nce/
Lots of useful information.

I love cheese, too. The good stinky kind. Actually, I found that since going Paleo, the cheese I eat HAS to be good quality, real cheese. None of this grocery-store-brand-shredded-in-a-bag garbage. It doesn't even taste like cheese to me anymore!

Jac, can you post your recipe for goat cheesecake? I've been thinking about cheesecake a lot recently, and that just sounds delicious!

Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. - Victor Hugo

Music is my religion. - Jimi Hendrix

There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another. - Frank Zappa
NUTMEG1125's Photo NUTMEG1125 Posts: 2,002
1/28/10 3:53 P

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Cheese, chesse and more cheese!

I will continue my love affair with cheese until I fail to lose weight anymore. And then I will cut out fruits :-)



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MOLLIEMAC's Photo MOLLIEMAC SparkPoints: (84,987)
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1/28/10 12:09 P

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Moi aussi:)...MJ

"THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN JUST BEING A PASSENGER." (Amelia Earhart)
DON'T TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY- IT'S NOT PERMANENT.
Old age is not for sissies.


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JAC-ATTACK's Photo JAC-ATTACK Posts: 308
1/28/10 12:03 P

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I can't really add value to this topic, but I wanted to admit my sinful dairy ways and give my allegiance to my dairy loves. I read this post over at MDA www.marksdailyapple.com/chees
e-unhealt
hy/
and decided I was a-ok, but in reality I would have just searched until I found an article that said what I wanted it to say.

The fact of the matter is that I really really love a good stinky cheese. Hard or soft, moldly or not, the older the better. I collect cheese tastings like people taste wine. When I go to wine tastings I eat the cheese. I smell it through the plastic in the market. I wish wish wish there were entire shops dedicated to cheese here as I found in Paris. When I make a crust-less cheesecake, I make it out of goat cheese and Greek yogurt. It bites you back. Must be my French blood, but ooo I want some lemon zest Stilton right now.

I also eat greek yogurt because I really really like that, with some nuts and berries and a delicate ribbon of agave nectar. Oh yummy. I use heavy cream in some recipes like to make a custard or my agave sweetened ice cream treat which turned out lovely by the way.

I have never liked milk, but I crave EXTRA sharp cheddar some times. In this case, I think my body knew long before Cordain wrote his book what it really wanted: no milk, more cheese.

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CINDYSUE48's Photo CINDYSUE48 Posts: 3,264
1/27/10 10:21 P

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I agree Josie!!

I also believe that at least on occasion, early man did use the milk found in the female animals they killed! They didn't waste food! Why would they waste that?

Cindy Moore

Low Carb and Paleo advocate

Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis diagnosed September 2007

Raleigh Low Carb Examiner
JOSIENUTTER's Photo JOSIENUTTER Posts: 648
1/27/10 6:51 P

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Dairy seems to be a controversial topic amongst Paleo dieters. Personally, I think if someone is NOT dairy intolerant, it shouldn't be an issue. A lot of what this diet is about is getting rid of any sort of inflammatory response. If dairy doesn't cause one, then I don't see why it would need to be cut (unless caloric intake was just way too high for the amount of activity being done).

Edited by: JOSIENUTTER at: 1/27/2010 (18:51)
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MOLLIEMAC's Photo MOLLIEMAC SparkPoints: (84,987)
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1/2/10 7:57 P

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I have to have a daily dose of plain yogurt or else I get leg cramps-I also take a Ca+ supplement. At the moment we are working our way through cheese that was given to us for Christmas- soon will be gone and then back to a more primal approach to eating..MJ

"THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN JUST BEING A PASSENGER." (Amelia Earhart)
DON'T TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY- IT'S NOT PERMANENT.
Old age is not for sissies.


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LOSERGUURL's Photo LOSERGUURL SparkPoints: (2,981)
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1/2/10 7:13 P

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I will do the full fat greek yogurt from time to time. I also do the full fat goat cheese from time to time but both are very limited. Both not a part of the Paleo way but I have to shake the tree once in a while to keep my taste buds happy or I will down a whole brick of cheese. WI/MN girl--raised on dairy so this is an area that is hard for me too.

Soy to me is just yucky in pretty much any form. Just my personal taste.

I am what I am and that's all's I am-Popeye


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DOTSLADY's Photo DOTSLADY Posts: 10,021
12/11/09 2:39 P

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Fermented is easier to digest: bit.ly/8ZgCqT

"But even if you donít have an allergy to soy, we recommend eating only fermented, non-genetically-modified (non-GMO) soy products.

Thatís because soybeans, like all beans, are a hardy combo of protein and starch...mostly starch... Soybeans are difficult to digest. The enzymes in your digestive tract have a difficult time breaking down the starch and the protein especially if youíre low on stomach acid. And who isnít these days since our blood is chronically acidic...a common cause of low stomach acid.

By fermenting soybeans first, the beneficial bacteria and yeast...during fermentation...do the tough job of ďpredigestingĒ for you. So when itís your turn to eat them, your body has no problem assimilating their healthy nutrients.

Any food that is improperly digested by your body causes acidosis, toxins and basically long term damage to your inner ecosystem, to your body, and to your health."


KNOWLEDGE = POWER. BODY = TEMPLE. FOOD = MEDICINE. PREVENTION IS THE CURE. YOU ARE WHAT YOU ABSORB!
One person's food is another person's poison.
__________
Celiac Disease: An autoimmune reaction from eating gluten grains: wheat, rye, barley and contaminated oats=nutrient deficiency=cancer. Have 1 of 300 symptoms? bit.ly/cdsymptoms
CD stories: bit.ly/cdstories
Nutrition/Cancer: bit.ly/Quillinnutrition


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CINDYSUE48's Photo CINDYSUE48 Posts: 3,264
12/11/09 11:55 A

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DB...the best explanation I've read is that plants, as protection, contain anti-nutrients. Since they can't run away from predators, they have developed these to "save" themselves. Apparently almost all plants have these anti-nutrients, but some bother us more than others. For some of them they are inactivated by cooking (think lima beans), others by fermentation.

Recently there was an article published about how "wonderful" soy was. It was based on testing women in Japan and it said that up to 11 grams of soy seemed to be optimal, more showed no added benefit. Most of the soy consumed was also in the form of soy sauce and miso, which are fermented. (a glass of soy "milk" contains about 10 grams of soy protein).

My problem with soy, the same with grains, is that it's not properly prepared. Properly prepared, as in fermented, is not the problem. I am intolerant to soy, but can eat soy sauce or miso without problems.

Cindy Moore

Low Carb and Paleo advocate

Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis diagnosed September 2007

Raleigh Low Carb Examiner
DBCLARINET's Photo DBCLARINET Posts: 1,113
12/11/09 11:08 A

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I'm curious now about the whole fermented soy thing. I've heard about it on occassion, but I've always been just soy=bad and stuck with that. Can you fill me in or post a link to some more info? Thanks!

Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. - Victor Hugo

Music is my religion. - Jimi Hendrix

There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another. - Frank Zappa
NUTMEG1125's Photo NUTMEG1125 Posts: 2,002
12/11/09 10:03 A

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Man, I missed a great discussion and now everything that I woudl have said was already mentioned.

I do eat soy, in fermented varieties only, on occasion. Any type of soy that is processed to eat outside of what is used for miso, or soy sauce is really bad for you. Soy milk, etc. have a lot of lectins. That is why when they do studies on soy in Asia, it is beneficial, but they can not recreate those results in the Western diet. We don't eat the right kind of soy.



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RUN26.2's Photo RUN26.2 Posts: 201
12/6/09 10:35 A

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Oh yes, I'm a huge fan of coconut milk in anything curry too, it's so delicious!

Personally I started drinking soy milk when I figured out after many years of tummy aches that it was from drinking milk! I'm mildly lactose intolerant, so milk is the worst for me, but things like yogurt and kefir work just fine.

For now it looks like I'll stick with my strict no-dairy (except the whey protein) and if I really feel I'm missing it, or my tummy wants some extra probiotics, I'll have the occasional plain yogurt (which I've also found is a good recovery drink for me when blended with water and cinnamon, sometimes a banana).

Now I'm imagining a paleolithic food processor!

~C

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MOLLIEMAC's Photo MOLLIEMAC SparkPoints: (84,987)
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12/6/09 8:32 A

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Lol, I suddenly have this image of Grok with a hind end of a mammoth slung over his shoulder pounding nuts on a rock. I think I'll stick to my daily dose of yogurt and use coconut milk in curries and soups.

"THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN JUST BEING A PASSENGER." (Amelia Earhart)
DON'T TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY- IT'S NOT PERMANENT.
Old age is not for sissies.


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CINDYSUE48's Photo CINDYSUE48 Posts: 3,264
12/6/09 3:01 A

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Now I don't see anything "wrong" with ground nuts. True early early man probably ate the nuts whole....but I can see them boiling nuts, grinding them, etc and making things with them. Getting "milk" from them, however, is another thing....I can't see Grok doing that.

Cindy Moore

Low Carb and Paleo advocate

Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis diagnosed September 2007

Raleigh Low Carb Examiner
DBCLARINET's Photo DBCLARINET Posts: 1,113
12/6/09 1:32 A

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I think we've hit on the gray area. The very first thing I read when I started going paleo was Loren Cordain's book, and he would definitely say that almond milk and rice milk aren't paleo, just like he actually does say that baked goods like pancakes or muffins made from almond flour aren't paleo, either. Hmmm, I really should get back to that philosophy...

Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. - Victor Hugo

Music is my religion. - Jimi Hendrix

There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another. - Frank Zappa
CINDYSUE48's Photo CINDYSUE48 Posts: 3,264
12/6/09 1:27 A

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I've only tried coconut milk once and it made me sick to my stomach. There were no additives, I checked before I bought it. I'm afraid to try it again....I hate nausea!

Other than the coconut milk....are the others really considered "paleo"? I can see coconut, it's inside the fruit and can be poured out....but almond milk and rice milk? They don't seem to be something Grok would have?

Cindy Moore

Low Carb and Paleo advocate

Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis diagnosed September 2007

Raleigh Low Carb Examiner
DBCLARINET's Photo DBCLARINET Posts: 1,113
12/6/09 1:20 A

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Ick, I stay away from soy completely. If I have a cheat meal at a sushi restaurant, I'll eat edamame, but that's it. I also went away from almond milk because of all the additives. I don't use milk, either, just full-fat coconut milk or cream. I ended up including more dairy products in my diet when I did a very low-carb experiment. It seems to work well for me, but I don't think I'm eating enough vegetables, so I'm trying to add more vegetables back into my diet and remove the dairy. I'm not doing that for weight, though. Unlike some of the observations here, I personally had trouble maintaining my weight eating dairy on a super-low-carb diet, even as I increased my calories. So now I am going back to eating some more veggies and less dairy, and we'll see what happens.

Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. - Victor Hugo

Music is my religion. - Jimi Hendrix

There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another. - Frank Zappa
MOLLIEMAC's Photo MOLLIEMAC SparkPoints: (84,987)
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12/5/09 8:21 P

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Thanks Dot-the soy article sums it all up- I have consumed a huge amount of soy milk pre paleo- it was so good? Sweet, smooth, vanilla/chocolate/ whatever- now I feel like gagging. And to think that I poured it on top of my cereal- aauugghhh! It's no wonder that I didn't feel good. What a pleasure to eat eggs, bacon, full fat coconut milk without feeling guilty- just add a host of fresh veggies and low carb fruits- don't forget the nuts...MJ

"THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN JUST BEING A PASSENGER." (Amelia Earhart)
DON'T TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY- IT'S NOT PERMANENT.
Old age is not for sissies.


Leader of team Healthy Canada


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DOTSLADY's Photo DOTSLADY Posts: 10,021
12/5/09 3:41 P

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I still eat dairy: plain, whole-fat, sometimes low-fat is all I can get, yogurt and sometimes, not very often, Daisy brand cottage cheese for a change. I, too, find it stalls my weight loss ... actually, here's another thought I have re: my experience. If I eat a dairy product, I'm NOT eating what I really feel is healthier: greens; and it's the greens/veggies, etc., which are more nutrient dense. When my veggie ratio is up - I lose weight. If I don't eat, I maintain, sometimes even gain.

I've also gotten allergy tests to confirm I have IGG reactions to all dairy. I need to be listening ...

I'm not a fan of soy AT ALL, save organic real beans for some people, and fermented for some people. I think once or twice a week for someone without autoimmune issues might be acceptable ... but that's jmho. I've got a couple autoimmune issues.

I also believe it's about balancing an alkaline vs acid diet (hence my belief about my own experience balancing dairy to other acids and alkaline in my diet).

Here's something to consider about your personal intake of soy, if you haven't read it before: bit.ly/WAPFsoy

KNOWLEDGE = POWER. BODY = TEMPLE. FOOD = MEDICINE. PREVENTION IS THE CURE. YOU ARE WHAT YOU ABSORB!
One person's food is another person's poison.
__________
Celiac Disease: An autoimmune reaction from eating gluten grains: wheat, rye, barley and contaminated oats=nutrient deficiency=cancer. Have 1 of 300 symptoms? bit.ly/cdsymptoms
CD stories: bit.ly/cdstories
Nutrition/Cancer: bit.ly/Quillinnutrition


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CINDYSUE48's Photo CINDYSUE48 Posts: 3,264
12/5/09 3:35 P

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I think milk is the lesser of 2 evils! Especially soy milk, which is not fermented!

I think cream is even better than milk.



Cindy Moore

Low Carb and Paleo advocate

Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis diagnosed September 2007

Raleigh Low Carb Examiner
RUN26.2's Photo RUN26.2 Posts: 201
12/5/09 2:47 P

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I know soy is technically non-Paleo as well, I think I'm just trying to figure out which milk or milk sub works the best for me - ie, is milk or soy the lesser of two evils? I have found an organic soy milk that is only soy beans and water, no added sugar or gunk. That occasionally turns into a latte for me, coffee is my big weakness!

As far as other milk subs go, I've tried hemp milk, almond milk, and rice milk (I know that's not Paleo too). I'm not a huge fan of the hemp milk, and the almond milk had more additives than I cared to decipher regularly, so that one's out for now. I guess I could go ahead and jump into making almond milk at home - anybody else do that?

~C

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RANEYDAY's Photo RANEYDAY Posts: 2,995
12/5/09 1:45 P

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I am do not have much dairy, but I do put half and half in my coffee. I add a little honey too. Maybe this is why I am not loosing yet. I just don't know if I could stand my coffee with out it.

~Debbie~
Crack the Fat Loss Code Team Leader

Goals to accomplish:
160 Done!
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153 See ya!
152 Out the door!
151 Cheerio!
150 Adios
149 bye
148 So Long Partner!
147 The bus stops here!
146 So long!
145 Out the door!
144 Good Bye!
143 Hit The Road!
142 Toodles!
141 Finally!
140 GOAL! WOO HOO!!!



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MOLLIEMAC's Photo MOLLIEMAC SparkPoints: (84,987)
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12/5/09 1:01 P

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Dairy is a no-no on a paleo diet, however I do have 1/2 c of plain unsweetened yogurt on fruit salad every day. I found that despite taking a Ca supplement I was getting leg cramps at night, the yogurt has solved that. Soy is also a no-no- it is a legume product and most soy products are loaded with sugars and other questionable goodies. Almond milk or coconut milk can be substituted but i am finding that most almond milks contain soy as well:(....MJ

"THERE'S MORE TO LIFE THAN JUST BEING A PASSENGER." (Amelia Earhart)
DON'T TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY- IT'S NOT PERMANENT.
Old age is not for sissies.


Leader of team Healthy Canada


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CINDYSUE48's Photo CINDYSUE48 Posts: 3,264
12/5/09 12:39 P

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Hi Run....I do eat dairy, but try to limit it. Mostly cheese and when I do eat yogurt it's full fat, plain. I do also use cream in coffee.

I stay as far away from soy as possible. I am intolerant and hate the taste....and I feel very strongly that soy is not good for you, unless it's fermented.

I'm not familiar with the other substitutes....what are you talking about? The non-dairy creamers, etc?

Cindy Moore

Low Carb and Paleo advocate

Palindromic Rheumatoid Arthritis diagnosed September 2007

Raleigh Low Carb Examiner
RUN26.2's Photo RUN26.2 Posts: 201
12/5/09 12:15 P

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Hi Everyone -

So, I generally lurk but occasionally post. As I've been looking through everyone's posts, I see a lot of you still include dairy products in your Paleo approach. How does this work out for everyone? I was continuing to include plain, fat free yogurt in my plan but my weight loss seemed stalled, so now I've cut that out also, and am losing again. So, the only dairy I'm getting currently is from an occasional post-long-run whey protein smoothie.

For those of you who still eat cheese and other dairy, do you eat it only as part of your 'cheat' meals, or do you include it more regularly? Has anyone else found dairy products to stall your weight loss? And what about plain unsweetened soy milk? Or other dairy subs? Has anybody had better or worse luck with these products? I've used soy milk instead of regular milk for years, but have been cutting it out for the past couple of weeks as well.

Hope you're all having a great weekend!

~C

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