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RACING4ME's Photo RACING4ME Posts: 7,182
9/25/10 1:54 P

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OK Adrian,
We differ in opinions, but that's what makes us unique:) emoticon

If all you get is all you give, then you should only give all you''ve got.
WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
9/25/10 12:13 P

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Trish:
"Huge lactic acid load"?? Sorry, no. I'm assuming your "wall" was in a marathon or other long distance event. In which case a huge lactic acid "load" is a physiological impossibility, given the intensity at which you run a long distance race. What your "wall" is more likely due to is improper fueling and/or training.

Lactic acid buildup/clearance is only a "limiter" in short, fast races. No-one talks about a "wall" there, do they?

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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RACING4ME's Photo RACING4ME Posts: 7,182
9/25/10 1:53 A

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Do I remember that!! I knew your blood sugars were REALLY low at that point, and attributed it to all of the above at the event. Interesting science behind doing an event that lasts so long. What people don't often think about is the "other" things they do leading up to an event. Like travel (or spending 30 hours in a van if you aren't running..LOL), stress of family/job etc. glycogen stores can be used up more doing "normal" things if you are over-tired, or physically taxed way more than normal.

The other thing that I have come to realize is how much your liver and kidneys can be affected by not paying attention to the glyogen/hydration cycles.

Nanc, how far we have come huh? And Adrian too...

Cheers,
Trish

edited to say to Adrian...for me the wall was a HUGE lactic acid load...you are right that all factors are considered in this, but even the most seasoned runner may make mistakes in how much they need in any given area for each event. I don't think that we can apply the science unilaterally - for me, each race is different, and my body tells me new things each time.

Edited by: RACING4ME at: 9/25/2010 (01:56)
If all you get is all you give, then you should only give all you''ve got.
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9/24/10 10:08 P

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Hey Trish!

I purchased it through a company called Human Kinetics. The title again is, Nutrient Timing for Peak Performance by Heidi Skolnik and Andrea Chernus.

It is a recently published book, but boy howdy do I wish I had this book when I ran HTC, would have kept me from hitting 'the wall' at the finish line...remember the gu/water deal. That wasn't due to anaerobic running, but depleting my glycogen stores over the 30 plus hours and not realizing that it may take as long as 48 hours to fully replenish these stores...live and learn, right?

Nancy

RACING4ME's Photo RACING4ME Posts: 7,182
9/24/10 9:56 P

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I have only ever hit the proverbial wall once, and that was on a training run when I was going to virtually run a marathon with LayersOfMe 6 years ago. Knowing what I know now about proper nutrition, training, and taper importance, I would imagine I wouldn't.

Nancy, I am really interested, can you point me in the direction of some info about this? I am asked quite a bit about this topic.

ROFL Susan - yup, things that make you say hmmmm.

If all you get is all you give, then you should only give all you''ve got.
RUNSUSANRUN's Photo RUNSUSANRUN Posts: 906
9/24/10 5:50 P

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I think a bigger explanation of what the 'wall' is, if it actually exists and how to avoid it is needed, however my little head is tired and it's sleepy time in Scotland, so tomorrow my friends, tomorrow...

Trish, look what you've started RMOFL

"I am a Runner, I love to run & I want to run at least 3 times per week. I was in great shape & now I want to get back there & look & feel like it. I want to always be strong when I run & I feel terrific after I finish. I love the feeling of acomplishment & the anticipation of the next run. I AM A RUNNER!"



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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
9/24/10 5:39 P

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RENNAGADE:
You didn't "hit the wall", but simply didn't train. These are two totally different entities...

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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RENNAGADE's Photo RENNAGADE Posts: 1,140
9/24/10 5:18 P

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the first time i did a 5k was the first time i ever ran (excluding childhood play. i was with a few co-workers that never ran before. one dropped out about the halfway mark and another one started vomiting at the end of the race.

Edited by: RENNAGADE at: 9/24/2010 (17:19)
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RUNSUSANRUN's Photo RUNSUSANRUN Posts: 906
9/24/10 4:26 P

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Which is where the 'it's in the mind' bit comes in. Happens to me in many races, I see the sign for the last mile/kilometre and think 'that's it, I can lie on the floor now' lol. Takes the mental leap to envisage myself crossing the finish line to millions of cheering fans- well, it works for me. emoticon

"I am a Runner, I love to run & I want to run at least 3 times per week. I was in great shape & now I want to get back there & look & feel like it. I want to always be strong when I run & I feel terrific after I finish. I love the feeling of acomplishment & the anticipation of the next run. I AM A RUNNER!"



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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
9/24/10 3:04 P

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RENNAGADE:
Actually, no.

Up to 1hr (so 5 or 10k) you are adequately fueled for the distance already and I would imagine you've already run 6 miles or something before raceday.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


 current weight: 190.0 
 
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RENNAGADE's Photo RENNAGADE Posts: 1,140
9/24/10 2:29 P

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wrongerchi
both your a and b definitions would mean that you can hit a wall. if i want to do a 10k but have never been able to go more than 5 miles i will hit a wall. that doesn't mean that i won't do a 10k

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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
9/24/10 1:08 P

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Trish:
There is no such thing as "hitting the wall" at ANY event if you are:

A) Well trained for the distance.
B) Properly fueled for the distance.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


 current weight: 190.0 
 
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SP_COACH_NANCY SparkPoints: (158,833)
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9/24/10 12:59 P

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I agree that hitting the wall is about energy depletion, but I do diagree that this is mainly mental. I am reading a FANTATIC book titled Nutrient Timing for Peak Performance...I thought Nancy Clark's book was great, this one hits it out of the ballpark!!

RUNSUSANRUN's Photo RUNSUSANRUN Posts: 906
9/24/10 12:36 P

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Nope, not anaerobic, just energy depleated lol take an energy gel and carry on, oh and one school of thought says that the wall is 5% not enough fuel, 95% all in your head, hmmm

"I am a Runner, I love to run & I want to run at least 3 times per week. I was in great shape & now I want to get back there & look & feel like it. I want to always be strong when I run & I feel terrific after I finish. I love the feeling of acomplishment & the anticipation of the next run. I AM A RUNNER!"



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RACING4ME's Photo RACING4ME Posts: 7,182
9/24/10 12:29 P

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Wow, I'm super impressed you guys!!! I was definitely way off base in how I looked at this. Thanks for clarifying it! So basically when I hit the wall in a marathon, and can't go any farther, I am anaerobic?

Thanks,
Trish

If all you get is all you give, then you should only give all you''ve got.
RUNSUSANRUN's Photo RUNSUSANRUN Posts: 906
9/24/10 11:54 A

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Trish, your heart rate may not be the best indicator or aerobic/anaerobic.

The body uses 3 energy systems: creatine phosphate (anaerobic alactate), lactate (anaerobic glycolysis) and aerobic.

Each system can sustain itself for a certain period of time before it needs replenished/rest
Creatine: up to 10 seconds, think hitting a ball with a bat or heavy weight lifting
Lactate: near maximal effort for up to 2 minutes, ie 200-400 meters sprinting, high intensity intervals
Aerobic: activates after 2 minutes where intensity is moderate and can be sustained for a long period, therefore jogging/running, cycling.

As you start exercising primary energy sources will be creatine & lactate until the aerobic system can meet the demands for energy, as a runner your aerobic system will remain fully active until depleated or you make that sprint to the finish.

FYI, if your have an elevated resting heart rate, but your body is taking in sufficient oxygen because your breathing is controlled, it may be more useful to use the Borg scale of perceived exertion?

"I am a Runner, I love to run & I want to run at least 3 times per week. I was in great shape & now I want to get back there & look & feel like it. I want to always be strong when I run & I feel terrific after I finish. I love the feeling of acomplishment & the anticipation of the next run. I AM A RUNNER!"



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SP_COACH_NANCY SparkPoints: (158,833)
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9/24/10 8:57 A

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Trish,

When we go anaerobic, we cannot maintain our workout intensity for more than a minute...heart rate elevates, you begin to hyperventilate as your body is producing lactic acid at a much faster rate than it can get rid of, you find yourself unable to concentrate long as your only thought is to stop or slow down. That being said, your anaerobic threshold will vary between modalities.

Nancy

WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
9/24/10 8:47 A

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If you reach a point where you can only run for ~1 minute = anaerobic.

Otherwise = aerobic.

That said, there is an anaerobic component to a proper lactate threshold type of workout but you burn through that in roughly 2.5 minutes.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


 current weight: 190.0 
 
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RUNSUSANRUN's Photo RUNSUSANRUN Posts: 906
9/24/10 3:07 A

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Morning Trish, let me have my coffee and get my brain to wake up and I'll get back to you with an answer, cos it's complicated! lol

"I am a Runner, I love to run & I want to run at least 3 times per week. I was in great shape & now I want to get back there & look & feel like it. I want to always be strong when I run & I feel terrific after I finish. I love the feeling of acomplishment & the anticipation of the next run. I AM A RUNNER!"



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RACING4ME's Photo RACING4ME Posts: 7,182
9/24/10 12:24 A

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I am really curious about when your bod goes from aerobic to anaerobic. Does anyone know how long in the "way to high" pulse range your body switches? A few of the machines I am allowed to exercise on allow me to hit 165 average for either 1/2 or 1 hour if I push myself. It feels GREAT, but I know that likely I am hitting anaerobic at one point, and should alter the current routine.

Funny, this is one thing I have never actually encountered before:);)

Hope you are all having a fantastic week:)

Trish

If all you get is all you give, then you should only give all you''ve got.
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