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RICK53403's Photo RICK53403 Posts: 662
10/14/08 11:15 P

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This has been great advice. I'll have to come back to it when I get my heart rate monitor soon.

Thanks to everyone that contributed.

2012 Goals:
1. Run 800 miles
6/9/12 - 162 mi

2. Walk 300 miles
6/9/12 - 124 mi

3. Ride 1,900 miles between the trainer and actual road work
6/9/12
326 miles Trainer
522 miles Road

4. Run the 10 mile Lighthouse Run in less than 90'

5. Get my 5K time to less than 25'

6. Complete at least 1 century bicycle ride

7. Complete at least 1 Pull-up
Managed 2 in March


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IMAGIN8 Posts: 739
10/14/08 9:11 P

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Great information, WONGERCHI, thank you very much!! My gym doesn't offer those tests (it's stricly a weight training place), so I'll try the technique you described. Much appreciated!

If it is to be, it is up to me.
- Author Unknown

The only thing standing between me and quitting is my next run.


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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
10/14/08 1:39 P

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GILLS:
Good advice in this thread so far, but I want to address the fundamental problem with HR training - setting up your zones correctly.

ALL the formulas out there for setting up your HR zones are garbage - at least for a significant percentage of the population. I know far more people who don't fit any formula, no matter how "accurate" it is. And these are people from beginner to multiple Ironman triathletes too.

To me, it sounds like you're one of these people, so you actually need to have a test to get your HR zones set up properly. Like Nancy, I've done a Max HR test and it's definitely not recommended. I much prefer a LT (Lactate threshold - Nancy calls it AT) test to get my zones set up. To do this, make sure you're well rested and hydrated. Warm up well, then run a 30 minute all-out, as fast as you can run. It's easier on the road as then you self-regulate your speed. However, speed is not the issue here. Take the AVERAGE HR over the last 20 minutes (and distance, if you want) and use that as your LTHR. This gives you top Z4. Anything above that is anaerobic. For more info, see Joe Friel's Training Bible series - I got all this from there.

Then set up your HR zones as follows (the bits in brackets are the types of runs I use these zones for and the "talk test"):

Top Z1 (Recovery): LTHR x 0.847 (conversational)
Top Z2 (LSD): LTHR x 0.907 (short sentences)
Top Z3 (Tempo): LTHR x 0.953 (single word answers)
Top Z4 (Cruise intervals): LTHR x 0.99 (can't talk, must run)
Top Z5: (Speed intervals) LTHR x 1.107 (can't talk, will die)

I like to combine my HRM with the "talk test" to make sure my zones are correct. Once you get used to it, the talk test is better than anything out there - I've run several times (and one race) without my HRM and my talk test zones have been bang on with my pace for a given HR zone. This method also estimates max HR pretty well - I have a LTHR of 179 which gives me a max HR of 198. When I got tested it was 196 so I'm close.

The beauty of this method is that your LT can be trainable - over the course of the year I moved my run LT up a couple of bpm and my bike LT up by 4bpm. I re-test every couple of months and readjust my zones to fit. So when you get fitter, do the test again and you'll find that your zones will move up accordingly.



EDITED to add - I do my LSD runs in mid-upper Z2. I find Z1 far too slow for those runs and I don't get why I should be there unless it's a recovery run. But whatever, you'll still get the same (correct me if I'm wrong Nancy!) benefit in Z1 as Z2.

Edited by: WONGERCHI at: 10/14/2008 (13:39)
In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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SUSANNAH's Photo SUSANNAH Posts: 2,277
10/13/08 4:16 P

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I love any reason not to feel bad about being slow!

Patience and Fortitude - Mom

There ain't a thing I've faced that's been too much for me - Classified "Inner Ninja"


ALEMMONS's Photo ALEMMONS Posts: 35
10/13/08 2:16 P

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All this information is wonderful. I've just recently started running about 4 months ago for the first time in my life (I'm a 33 year old female) and don't really know anything about my THR. How do I go about figuring what that is and where I should train at to lose weight? I wear a heart rate monitor and tend to average between 140-155bpm. Also, what are these zones 1,2,3,4 that you all are talking about? Any help would be much appreciated - thanks!

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TURBOMEL's Photo TURBOMEL Posts: 9,144
10/13/08 7:39 A

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Coopsm - thanks for telling me about the save feature!

Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me.
-Carol Burnett

"Dead Last Finish is greater than Did Not Finish which greatly trumps Did Not Start."

Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever.



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AMOMTO2JS's Photo AMOMTO2JS Posts: 1,900
10/12/08 5:59 P

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Funny, I had the same concern myself. I watch my heart rate but I go by how I feel and the 'talk test.' In my half yesterday, I really held back for the first 5 miles to the point where my pace was slower than usual and I could carry on a conversation (like I could have delivered the evening news report). I was in zone 4.

- Dana

"I'm one stomach flu away from reaching my goal weight." - Devil Wears Prada


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COOPSM's Photo COOPSM Posts: 24,881
10/12/08 5:16 P

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Down at the bottom of the thread, there is a save button!!!! I just saw it myself....

~Beth~

~Look me up on facebook
www.facebook.com/bethglair

~Follow me at www.facebook.com/bethglairfit?ref=hl

Runners just do it - they run for the finish line even if someone else has reached it first. ~Author Unknown


IMAGIN8 Posts: 739
10/12/08 3:53 P

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Thanks Nancy!! That's awesome. I wish I could save this thread like I can Spark articles, this one is definitely a keeper.

I love the quote in your signature:

"Last is just the slowest winner." - C. Hunter Boyd

I'll keep that in mind!
emoticon

If it is to be, it is up to me.
- Author Unknown

The only thing standing between me and quitting is my next run.


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JAZZTAZZ's Photo JAZZTAZZ Posts: 660
10/12/08 1:24 P

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Nancy, thank you so much for this information. I feel so much better about my progress. I was feeling like I was so far behind and you just helped me feel more confident about it. I will stop feeling so discouraged now.

"Today I make healthy choices that support and fulfill ME!"


"I keep my mind healthy and happy, and my body follows suit."




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MARYRN1956's Photo MARYRN1956 SparkPoints: (0)
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10/12/08 11:15 A

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Nancy,

Thank you so much for that information. I may have to start wearing my HR monitor. It is still warm here in S. Carolina so I am hesitant to strap one more thing to my body! I am already wearing TWO sports bras, a SPIbelt to carry my phone, keys and money, sometimes a water bottle holder and then my iPod strapped to my arm.

Mary

MARY




Friendship is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, but only you can feel its true warmth.
http://nikeplus.nike.com/nikeplus/?l=runne
rs,runs,818793803,runID,137856074




greatday.com


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JUSTCHECKING1's Photo JUSTCHECKING1 SparkPoints: (21,272)
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10/12/08 10:26 A

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Nancy thank you for endless help in our quest of becoming better runners. I get impatient and your gentle reminder really helps me. emoticon

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SP_COACH_NANCY SparkPoints: (158,833)
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10/12/08 10:08 A

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You betcha Gills...that is why you need to allow time for all your body systems to adapt to running...everything from heart, lungs, muscles, bones, joints, connective tissues, and yes, the infamous glycogen stores.

I once read that it takes the average runner 10-15 years to peak in this sport (well, just look at Ryan Hall- late 20s, Deena Kastor mid 30s, Paula Radcliffe early 30s, even the fast sprinters, like Usain Bolt-just turned 22, started his running career at the tender age of 12-and now he is the fastest man on earth).

If I can convince people that they will have a long running career if they allow the processes to change over a long period of time instead of wanting to do everything, NOW, than I will have done my job.

I believe the reasons many people quit running are...

Lack of patience...they feel they should run their fastest times now. Not realizing it takes years to nourish and develop.

Injury...because they forced themselves to go farther/faster than their bodies have had time to adapt to.

Frustration...kinda goes with impatience. They don't want to accept where they are now, so when they feel as though they aren't making progress (when in all reality they are...they are building the glycogen stores-which once again takes TIME-making it easier for them to run) they quit.

As my running coach once told me, "Rome wasn't built in a day, nor a runner in a day, week, or month...it is the consistency of running that will make one a runner."

HAPPY RUNNING!
Nancy



Edited by: SP_COACH_NANCY at: 10/12/2008 (10:08)
IMAGIN8 Posts: 739
10/12/08 8:45 A

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Thanks Nancy, I'll stay in the recommended zone then. Over time will I be able to run faster and still stay in zone 1?

If it is to be, it is up to me.
- Author Unknown

The only thing standing between me and quitting is my next run.


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TURBOMEL's Photo TURBOMEL Posts: 9,144
10/12/08 7:33 A

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Nancy, that was the best discription I've read on HRMs. I've had a hard time to understand the zones, that really helped me.
You write so well.

Only I can change my life. No one can do it for me.
-Carol Burnett

"Dead Last Finish is greater than Did Not Finish which greatly trumps Did Not Start."

Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever.



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SP_COACH_NANCY SparkPoints: (158,833)
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10/11/08 9:41 P

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Gill,

I had a VO2 max test done at my gym (I am 47)...my anaerobic threshold (the point at which the body produces more lactic acid than it can get rid of) is 159 bpm...that being said, my running coach has me running most of my LSD runs in MY zone 1-2 which is 136-146 for zone 1 and 146-152 for zone 2.

That being said, because we are all genetically different, it is hard to say what your personal anaerobic threshold is...but a very basic test is once you reach the huffing and puffing stage, you have reached your AT. So how slow should you go...well last night I was reading in an article on the Peak Performance Site that stated that recent research suggest that most of us should run slower than we feel we can go...this allows us to burn fat longer into our runs, therefore allowing us to run longer/farther. Once you start dipping above one's aerobic base-the point at which you burn 50% of your calories from fat and 50% of your calories from glycogen (or stored glucose in the muscles and liver) your body will fatigue just a little faster. And once you hit your AT, don't count on going much farther, since we all have a limited supply of glycogen but unlimited supply of fat...keeping it slow and steady will allow one to go farther...this is great for LSD runs. I am not saying you should never go to your AT...that is what intervals are for...you dip into the glycogen reserves for say a minute or less before you are forced to slow down, recover, before hitting it again.

My aerobic base is 146, which is why my running coach does not really want me running my LSD runs over my zone 2, but he really does prefer me to stay in zone 1 when at all possible. That is quite the challenge, but it goes to the theory, that in order to run faster, one must run slower.

I hope this makes sense.

HAPPY RUNNING!
Nancy

Edited by: SP_COACH_NANCY at: 10/12/2008 (10:11)
IMAGIN8 Posts: 739
10/11/08 9:28 P

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I tried out my new heart rate monitor today for the first time, and was surprised by how slow I had to run to stop the danged thing from beeping. It has my THR set between 113-148, but at 148 I was just shuffling along and could have run all day. It didn't even feel hard, and I hardly broke a sweat. 155 would have been more fun.

Is it ok to go up to 155 (I'm 46, 5'5), or should I stick with the (excruciatingly boring) 148? Is the THR really supposed to be that easy?


If it is to be, it is up to me.
- Author Unknown

The only thing standing between me and quitting is my next run.


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