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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
4/23/12 1:13 P

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I know we have beaten a dead horse on this topic ..... but heard on my radio news that the cyclist killed last summer perpetrator's outcome. The DA did not think they had enough evidence to convict for manslaughter so they plead the charge down to inattentive driving instead!!

My question to the lawyer and DA is how much more evidence do you need other then a dead cyclist to convict???

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TAHOEKARIN's Photo TAHOEKARIN Posts: 981
4/11/12 11:29 A

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A ghost bike is a bike painted all white and usually put somewhere a cyclist was killed. Still have not found out what happened and who really knows. I find it odd because if there is a car crash it's usually put in what happened. But a biker gets ran over? Nothing. I'm a little peeved.

Interesting thought there on the known vs unknown victim. Makes you really think. Either way it's not right, but to go and hit someone you don't know? Isn't that a sign right there?

I just think fewer and fewer really care anymore. Kind of sad.

The only way out is through...

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LORENVER's Photo LORENVER Posts: 5,300
4/8/12 1:55 P

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"ghost bike at the street"??

As for the laws. Some punishments are designed to be so bad you wont think about doing them (copyright- not worth it so don't do it) some are designed to punish, hit a person get X punishment- not something that was planned. Now planning on going out and hitting a person with your car, then you get X plus more for per-meditative.

I always thought it was odd (discovered this sitting on a Jury) that if I haul off and hit a random person in the street I can have X punishment. If I haul off and hit a person in the street that happens to be my husband I get X plus 2-4 times the punishment (multiple charges- can actually go to a felony, ouch). Dude. I think hauling off and hitting anyone should be bad tacos period. But spousal abuse is a HUGE topic with lots of badness, therefore the laws have been written and add together to form this giant mass that means if I hit a random person I get a minor slap on the wrist in comparison.

Loren

Indianapolis IN - Eastern Time Zone.

Did my first Sprint Triathlon September 14th 2014.

Ran my first Marathon, Indianapolis Indiana October 16th 2010.

Your stomach shouldn't be a waist basket.
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I miss you Dad (I know you'd be proud of me).
~Loren



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4/4/12 5:59 A

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I had a simular issue where I was going down the shoulder of the road and I watched this black truck go by. Right in front of me he decided to turn, no blinker, nothing, at 25mph I flipped over my handle bars and slid behind his rear tire. At which point he sped up and left. Lady behind skidded to a stop to check on me. Luckly all that happened is my carbon brake levers got ruined and bought a new helmet, tons of road rash and a swallon nose.

When I hear a car coming on me I move over and yet a lot of them still drive within inches of me. I don't understand motorist, I want to kick all their cars and leave lovely dents in them.

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4/3/12 4:56 P

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Motorist tried to help me out as well. One of my accidents a hit-and-run when a motorist ran a stop sign and T-boned me in an intersection. Another motorist saw the accident and chased the car that hit me but never got close enough to read the license plate. He got a pretty good description, it was late model yellow Caddilac with a broken right taillight. The police thought they found the driver and asked him to come bring his car to the police station to see if witnesses could identify the car but the driver refused to come in so the Police told me there was nothing they could do. A couple of my cycling buddies figured out who the police suspected and planned on taking revenge by vandalizing their car but I told them to forget it. Two wrongs don't make a right and if they were caught by police or the owner things could get much uglier.

BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,889
4/2/12 5:14 P

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All good points. Cyclists must be understand motorists, at least a normal (if there is such a person) and way them by or try to let them pass if safe. I agree in the city at times you must take your lane and hold it or you will be wedged out.

I have been thinking about this all weekend while riding. I rode my bike to the gym on Saturday and Sunday.

It was cold on Saturday and not many people out.

Sunday there were more people around, as I get into the city about 1 mile from the gym a single car comes from behind me, gets within a foot, and lays on the horn. No other cars in sight ahead of me, why didn't they go around. Then the screaming out the window on how I need to get off the road. I had to look past it or hair was going to fly.

I got to a stoplight and a van came up beside me and said they saw what happened, got the plate number. I told them the 3' law and asked if they would call it in. The driver asked, what kind of bike is a Serotta? Is that from Japan? no USA. He was all happy to hear I had a bike made in the USA. Not all drivers are bad. I asked him to call in the plate number as he was a witness, and gave him my cell number. We shall see if I get a call.

1 good driver-1 bad driver, it only takes one to kill you. I went 16.5 miles one way and only 2 miles on the streets. We, as a society are deep poop and values are screwed-up.

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TAHOEKARIN's Photo TAHOEKARIN Posts: 981
4/2/12 4:27 P

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GIANT STEPS- exactly. I asked someone I 'used to' (due to other attitude issues as well) ride with why him and two people went three across on a very busy road on a straight away- with traffic behind him and given the great opportunity for cars to pass them and give them a wide berth with no danger. His answer was just that "oh because we could, and just to tick off some of the drivers". Thanks guys. When I get buzzed again, he won't be anywhere around.

How do you defeat that mentality? I have had another guy do something really dumb and really similar say "oh if they hit me they are in trouble".Oh? I guess a broken pelvis isn't all that bad?

I am still waiting on the Fed Ex driver report. No one seems to know who was at 'fault'. We all know who is dead. Not a peep in the papers. NOT A PEEP!!!!!! I would just like to know what he was charged with if anything? Is he still driving???

So back to the topic, not surprised at this point. Cyclist is dead, I guess the mentality is it's our fault we want to be on a bike? Gah...

The only way out is through...

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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
4/2/12 4:18 P

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Here let me add gas to this fire of an example: a pet who is abused and if the abuser is caught will suffer a stiffer penalty than if the animal abuser were to hit a cyclist. Now if that doesn't get your ire up what will?

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4/2/12 3:22 P

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One comment I'd make is that I don't take the whole lane just "because I can" but I take the whole lane when it isn't safe for a motorist to pass me and taking the whole lane forces them to wait until they can use another lane to pass. The times I do take the whole lane are in the city when I'm not traveling that much slower than traffic anyway.
Like I already said, while cycling can sometimes be a harrowing activity and there is some actual danger involved the danger of being sedentary is far greater. Your risk of an early death are far greater from being sedentary than from a cycling accident.


BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,889
4/2/12 2:19 P

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It's the same with the US Census, mess up a customs form and $10,000 per mistake, and BIS will cost you up to $250,000. Jail time 10 years.

A life is not worth much if you are on a bicycle. Point taken.

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SWEETCYCLINHAMS's Photo SWEETCYCLINHAMS Posts: 1,249
4/2/12 2:07 P

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Okay, I will concede that lives other than one persons' could be in the balance with the example cited. So, let's choose an example where absolutely zero lives are in jeopardy: Copyright issues.

If I purchase a movie and make a copy of it to give to my ex for our son to watch at her place, I can be fined up to $250,000 PER INCIDENT, and spend time up to 5 years in a federal prison. And all because I sought to make a copy of a movie.

Now please, someone tell me, how is copying a $25 DVD worth $250,000 and 5 years in prison but a cyclist's life isn't even worth a moving violation on the part of the guilty motorist?

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TAHOEKARIN's Photo TAHOEKARIN Posts: 981
3/29/12 8:25 P

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Interesting thread with alot of good points.

I think the 20 yr max might have to do with you could potentially be affecting the lives of 200 people instead of just yourself. I work with emi/rfi filtration for work in medical devices, so my big beef is when people think they have a right to be on their phone or other equipment when a plane is taking off or landing. No. It's not right. The problem is maybe one or two pieces of electronic equipment aren't bad but if the whole plane started using stuff? It will be a giant emi jam session. See? I am reallly going off subject LOL.

I was going to start a thread of something that happened yesterday but I forgot. So here it is:

A woman was on a bike and hit by a Fed Ex FREIGHT truck last week in the industrial park where I commute sometimes. She was "hit" and died a day later. But the problem I have is that the paper and media give no details. Was she traveling the opposite way? (BIG problem with me. To get respect you have to earn respect). Was she wearing a helmet? Wearing dark clothes?

I actually drove up to the spot yesterday. Rainy day, avoiding my own ride to see what happened. What I forgot would be there (my ex husband was a cop and a cyclist so I have seen these lines before) were all the lines defining the accident. I almost took a picture of it, but it was just too much. To me, it looked like she was traveling with traffic in the ample shoulder (there are nice wide shoulders throughout the park). The sad part is the two circles on the ground that represented her wheels. Either the truck just ran right over here (he was turning left) or she ran into the side of the truck as he was turning (I knew someone that hit a parked car and died, so it could happen) judging from the wheels and the bike. She was 58, and like many of my friends and myself (smacked at an intersection twice), hit at an intersection/driveway.

I thought about talking to the industrial park management to see if I could put a ghost bike at the street but I think the whole thing freaked me out so much I just went home. Gets even more weird...

At the intersection that I go through every day, I see a fire truck. A car flipped over on its roof. How it happened who knows. I stopped and waited for the other guy to go through...the car behind him goes through and almost nails me as I started through the intersection...and when I lay on the horn she just stares at me....like...who are YOU? And I'm in a giant jeep.

You might think I'm crazy but I find being on a bike weirdly safer than being in a car. I swear I feel like I'm driving around like a target. I take my time on a bike, I don't take many risks, I'm patient, and when in doubt, I take the safer route. Yes, I have been buzzed, harrassed, yelled at, etc, but let me tell you, it's a fraction of what has happened in my car. I drive a big jeep and I am tired of being tailgated, cut off, given the finger, etc. At least on a bike I hold up traffic and they can go around me. Don't like it? Go around me. In a car they will just run you down. I swear I feel like I'm crazy but for me, I would rather be commuting 50 miles a day (please, weather, clear up) than be in that car. No, I don't ride on roads that are not safe (no shoulder, bad visibility), I might add a mile or two to the ride, but I get there alive.

My one issue lately has been cyclists that feel that the road belongs to them (actual people I know that I have seen do some dumb things) and that the cars can just pound it. You know, I think that you are right...we should have more rights...however, HOWEVER, putting your life on the line, 'taking the road' because you want to prove a point, or taking a dangerous route because people should keep an eye out for you might prove a point but if you know that it's dangerous, keep in mind I kicked a car with my foot when they pulled out and I spent the rest of the summer doing physical therapy. It's not worth getting hurt. I liken it to someone that says they are going to slam on their brakes and let the car behind them hit them to prove a point. Well guess what? Whip lash sucks. And the only person paying for it will be them with soft tissue damage.

I guess it's been bothering me lately because between the woman getting killed and a couple of people I know riding like a buttheads (and making all of us look like boneheads) it just doesn't make sense.

Oh this summer will be very interesting. More and more people are going to take to the roads not because it's popular but because of the cost of gas. Just like Walmart realizing that reusable bags save them money, I believe cycling will be an epiphany for some. Think about it. Walmart started their 'green' campaign and suddenly everyone cared!

I will, however, continue to carry counterassault. I hear there are alot of grizzlies running around in near Boston!

The only way out is through...

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,889
3/29/12 6:02 P

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SCRUFYNERFHERDR

I have met JHOLLNAGEL. We live in the same state and see/share the same issues with motorists. I trust his judgement 100%.

+ We don't pay road taxes? If you work and have a state tax you pay that. If you don't have a state tax you probably have a state sales tax. So you pay taxes on your income or spending.

+ We don't deserve to be on a busy road? Then let them pass a law. We can't ride on an interstate freeway so we don't. I think many cyclists have allows aggressive motorists to take their rights away. It's implied that we don't belong or we get run off the road/terminated.

+ We were just asking to be hit by riding to\from work during rush hour? Or on a Sunday afternoon when a drunk is upset because his football team lost. We are sitting ducks.

The value of your bike is greater than many cars, yet the police have said to me, "It's only a bike, ride on the bike trail." Then you get attacked by gangs on the bike trail and "We can't be everywhere, why are you riding on the trail at night". ....it's only a life!

Cycling defense tools! Just thinking, the wand? It's a battery charged rod, just arm it and touch a car, it puts enough static charge to short out the digital computer system of the car. A cyclists get's 3 feet, it's adjusted to be 3' for you. If a car is close enough to touch it's yours.

A .380? I'm thinking a revolver, you don't want to leave brass! Charter Arms Bulldog 44 special comes to mind. A knife is good took and you never run out of ammo. Things are getting heated with motorists and this is just the start of the season. Time to think about it.

"The motorist has a 200 hp, 2,500 lb. car with which to wreck havoc and not even get a dented bumper." It's a weapon of cyclists destruction.


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SWEETCYCLINHAMS's Photo SWEETCYCLINHAMS Posts: 1,249
3/29/12 2:21 P

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I never said that a person WOULD get 20 years for being obstreperous with the flight attendant, or any other aviation authority. I simply said it was skewed that they *could* give such a stiff penalty. Granted, hundreds of lives could be in jeopardy, but no more so than all the cyclists on the roads and motorists with a self-proclaimed false sense of entitlement who are out for blood.

The fact of the matter is, JHOLLNAGEL is correct and (s)he echoes what I've said and observed all along. At least if you're a motorcyclist, you can expect to be peed on if you're on fire. Cyclists can't. Cyclists are seen as lecherous pariahs on the roads. We don't pay road taxes? We don't deserve to be on a busy road? We were just asking to be hit by riding to\from work during rush hour?

First of all, the last time I checked, the government bent me over and loaded me like a shotgun on my taxes just like everyone else who actually works for a living. Since bikes are (by the letter of the law) seen as vehicles, why do we not have the same rights as such? And, as for riding to work, I can't believe I see people doing this every morning, knowing that there are motorists out there simply looking to "make an example" out of a completely innocent cyclist.

As far as what BARRONVC states, I have seriously considered purchasing a .380 simply to give me some form of protection. The sad reality is: The motorist has a 200 hp, 2,500 lb. car with which to wreck havoc and not even get a dented bumper. I have less than 3 seconds to react and the side of the road to ditch my $7,000 bike...assuming I'm riding where there actually is a road with a place I can dive.

(Can you tell I'm nothing short of livid?!)

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,889
3/29/12 1:18 P

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If you kill a cyclists in my area via a motor vehicle, it's the motorist fault, they get a $300 ticket and go home.

I think there is a message that is not completely screwed up. The police in the area don't believe cyclists have even rights no matter what the laws says. This is going to be one heated summer. I'll keep you poster, oh we now have a concealed carry laws for firearms, stun guns, and pepper spray. I know some that have the permit.



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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
3/29/12 1:17 P

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I agree .... it is a society issue. However, society deems what laws there should be on the books. Hence, since they have deemed that cyclist should have the same rights as vehicles, well then the law should be upheld accordingly.

For example: the police gave a citation today for someone running a red light and strucked and killed a person in the intersection that had the right away. The prosecutors office is not going to file any charges and no fines were assessed.

How would a jury rule in this case?


Now lets fill in the blanks: The person running the red light was a car and struck a women in the cross walk. Hmmmmm, I am sure the jury would find the motorist guilty.

However, on the otherhand, that same motorist struck a cyclist. The motorist would get off.

Is there a difference here? No there isn't .... the only difference comes in to play when you know who the actors are portraying.

Justice is supposed to be blind .... my description of the example was blind until I allowed our biasms come into play when we knew who the parties involed were.

I guess my point I am trying to make is do the trial without naming parties and see what type of outcomes we would get. I think you would see a lot of guilty verdicts At least I would hope so????

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GIANT-STEPS SparkPoints: (65,379)
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3/29/12 10:45 A

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I think you are reading too much into this.

Someone can get "up to 20 years in prison" for "assaulting or intimidating the crew, interfering with its duties or diminishing its ability to operate the plane." It doesn't say that everyone who gives a flight steward a hard time will get the maximum penalty. Consider that someone interfering with flight operations could put hundreds of people's lives in danger. Different states have different penalties for aggravated vehicular assault but in some states the maximum penalty is as high as 25 years.

In theory someone could get 20 years for giving a flight steward a hard time just like in theory a motorist trying to door a cyclist could get 25 years.

This isn't really a political issue but a society one. After a local cyclist was killed I heard comments from non-cyclists to the effect that he was asking to be hit by riding on a busy road; that his parents should have taught him not to "play" in the street; that he didn't have a right to be on the road since he didn't pay road taxes, etc. All you need is one of these folks on a jury and a motorist killing a cyclist gets off.

ON2VICTORY's Photo ON2VICTORY SparkPoints: (47,574)
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3/29/12 10:19 A

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When it comes to cyclists. we have as much right to the road as any other vehicle provided that we ourselves are following common sense, legal requirements etc....

I get tired too of getting "buzzed" by cars that easily could have moved over.

it doesnt happen very often in my neck of the woods, but it only takes once and my cycling or running career is over.

Havent been harassed yet but im sure its coming... the world is full of intelligent people....

I get irritated looks when I ride or run on the left so I can see the oncoming traffic. I do this so I at least have a chance to dive off the road if I see some careless moron driver texting, swerving etc... I have a thing about living, im paralyzed or dead and they get a dent in their fender...

Edited by: ON2VICTORY at: 3/29/2012 (11:16)
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SWEETCYCLINHAMS's Photo SWEETCYCLINHAMS Posts: 1,249
3/29/12 9:49 A

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Believe it or not, I rarely go on a tirade about government, politics, religion, etc. But things like this really get my goat!

In an article linked on Comcast's homepage - xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-ge
ne
ral/20120327/US.Flight.Disrupted.CapR>tain/?cid=hero_media
- there's a quote: "Under federal law, a conviction for interference with a flight crew or attendants can bring up to 20 years in prison. The offense is defined as assaulting or intimidating the crew, interfering with its duties or diminishing its ability to operate the plane."

Now actually read that and then put it into perspective: If I tell a stewardess, "No!" when she tells me to return to my seat, I can actually be imprisoned for up to 20 years!! 20 years, people - almost a quarter of a century! But, a motorist throws something at a cyclist, buzzes and or kills a cyclist, and they get off with literally nothing - no fines, no jail time...NOTHING AT ALL!!

Honestly...People. Am I the only sane one here? How could that not infuriate the millions of cyclists?!

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