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BILL60's Photo BILL60 Posts: 227,834
10/18/11 1:40 P

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MLMAVERICK:
I know just how you feel. I look forward to scheduled rides and get a real case of the hips when something happens to curtail the ride. While it is indeed unfortunate, at least you have the LBS looking out for you. Hang tough and do some healthy push-ups to try and get over the frustration.

"Excellence is but for the few."


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10/18/11 1:26 P

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Breaking spokes on a new bike is not acceptable. If warranty replacement means replacing one crappy wheel with another crappy wheel than I'd upgrade to some better wheels even if it meant paying extra. One year my shop had trouble with one bike model wheels. I sold Centurion and they had a bike called the Elite R/S that rode great. Whenever we could get someone to test ride one they usually bought it; it rode better than a lot of bikes that cost double. Problem was one of the places they saved money was on seriously cheesy wheels. Their importer Western States Imports happily gave us warranty replacements for wheels that wouldn't stay true but we were just exchanging one crappy wheel for another crappy wheel that would be in the same condition after a few hundred miles.
We couldn't afford to upgrade all the wheels so our compromise was to offer to keep replacing the wheels with the same or if the customer would buy some rims and spokes for cost I'd build their wheels up free. Our customers were generally ecstatic about their bike other than the wheels so most sprung for rims and spokes and got a great riding bike and hand built wheels out of the deal. I built a lot of wheels that year!
Anyway, it sounds like your LBS is willing to take care of you.

BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
10/18/11 11:41 A

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At least they are working with you. Good Luck and keep us posted.

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
10/18/11 10:12 A

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Welp, on my 2nd ride after I snapped a spoke a few weeks ago, I snapped another one. Same tire, same side (the drive side).

The LBS swapped it out again and wants me to give it one more chance to see if another one snaps. They have a feeling I either got a bad batch of spokes or the wheel itself has a flaw. if another spoke fails, they're going to go after Trek to have them swap both of my tires with stronger built tires. If Trek wont comply, they'll custom build me a set of wheels with stainless steel spokes. Either way, free of charge.

At least they're taking care of me.

Doesn't help the fustration of rides getting cut short though.

Edited by: MLMAVERICK at: 10/18/2011 (10:13)
- Mark

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10/17/11 3:21 P

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I miss 36 spoke wheels. A set of light inexpensive rims and 36 double butted spokes create a wheel stronger, lighter, cheaper, livelier and more durable than most modern low spoke count wheels. Granted the extra spokes and box rims will cost you seconds in a time trial but for the vast majority of riders old school wheels are better.
Getting to specifics. 4 cross is not always the best with 36 spokes. I don't remember the dimensions off the top of my head but there is a narrow range of hub flange diameters that are suitable for 4 cross. Too large or small a flange diameter causes the spokes to interfere with adjacent spokes or spoke heads. Many front hubs have too small diameter for 4 cross and result in spokes running over the adjacent spoke head causing stress at the elbow and making spoke replacement impossible without loosening the entire wheel. Drum, generator, or large flange hubs usually have too large a diameter and spokes interfere with each other with 4 cross plus the angle spokes come to the rim can be great enough to cause stress at the nipple. Most of the sport touring bikes I sold in the 1980's had 36 spokes front and rear and 4 cross rear 3 cross front lacing for this reason. Of course hubs that have the same diameter front and rear like many sealed bearing hubs allow 4 cross on both ends. In any case, there is little difference in strength between 3 cross and 4 cross so there is nothing wrong with using 3 cross on all 36 spoke wheels. Many shops don't even stock spoke lengths for 36x4 since most riders have no preference and the few that do usually opt for 3. One caveat is that when re-lacing a used hub always use the same number of crosses and orientation as previous builds. Changing orientations will lead to the hub flange failing and even Campagnolo will not replace hubs who's flanges break when a hub is rebuilt with a different orientation. The orientation will be obvious from how the spokes seat into the aluminum hub flanges.
32 spoke wheels simply can not be laced 4 cross. 36 is the smallest number of spokes that allows 4 cross lacing. To have 5 crosses you have to go up to 48 spoke wheels. Most of the 48 spoke tandem wheels I built were 5 cross but there is no way to lace 48 spoke BMX wheels 5 cross. With that many spokes on a 20" wheel the spokes do not have to be very tangental.
Straight gauge spokes do not build a stronger wheel; they build a weaker one. You see a wheel easily goes out of true when the spokes on the bottom in the load affected zone go slack; this allows the nipple to unscrew. Double butted spokes by being more elastic do not go as slack as the stiffer straight gauge spokes. Since double butted spokes are also less stiff torsionally they are more difficult to build a wheel with; this is the main problem with double butted spokes. A competent wheelbuilder can build a more durable wheel with double butted spokes than straight.

BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
10/16/11 11:40 A

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MLMAVERICK,

I wish you were near me and I could spend some time showing you the in's and out's of this wheel situation. This can be confusing and cause much frustration wondering if you are too heavy for a certain set of wheels.


BLJORDAN has some good points. Spoke freeze, I've used many different formulas for this. I get best results if I clean any dirt, oil, or grease off the spoke threads before applying. I let it dry and make sure it only a very thin coating, there are many kinds and some are not specific to cycling.

"For a person your size I would suggest a 36 hole 4 cross straight gauge spoke with a double wall double eyelet rim. I assure you that will hold up."

36 holes are not real common today. I agree this would be a rock crusher. A 32 with 4 cross in the rear, Straight 14 gauge SS spokes with all mentioned by BLJORDAN would be ideal. You could get away with a 32 hole 3 cross in the front.

I did have a set of Mavic Ksyrium wheels that would loosen up all the time. Talked to the Mavic rep and he gave me new spokes, I used this method with a compound called Vibra-tite and they have not change since. This compound is good on coarse threads like the Ksyrium has.

I think you got a bad wheel. A wheel like mentioned above should last 20,000 to 50,000 miles as long as you don't crash or aim for obstacles. You might have an occasional spoke break and near the end you will see stress fractures (tiny cracks) in the rim. The eyelets will have less of a chance of doing this.

Hang tight and keep losing weight.

Edited by: BARRONVC at: 10/16/2011 (11:40)
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BLJORDAN's Photo BLJORDAN Posts: 58
10/15/11 2:43 P

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Have your bike shop apply spoke freeze to the back side of the nipple and confirm the rim has eyelets. For a person your size I would suggest a 36 hole 4 cross straight gauge spoke with a double wall double eyelet rim. I assure you that will hold up.

BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
10/7/11 11:38 A

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More than likely the head of the spoke on the drive side of the wheel, where the gears are. These have more tension than the none drive side and work harder to put the wheel in true.

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
10/7/11 9:21 A

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not sure. i know it snapped off the inside part where the gears are and not the outside part where the tire is.

the LBS has the bike and will let me know the specifics when I pick it up Saturday from them.

- Mark

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
10/6/11 11:41 P

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Did the head of the spoke sever? Any cracks in the hub or rim?

Probably over stressed from the original build. Tension maybe have been too great to hold the wheel true and the stress caused it to fail.

Wish I could help you more.

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
10/6/11 7:30 P

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Welp, about 6.5 miles into my ride tonight, I heard a very loud pop. was able to ride it back the last 2 miles to the car. Turns out I blew a back wheel spoke.

Well there's yer problem!

Bike shop is working on it. Guess that means I get a new tire haha.

- Mark

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
10/5/11 4:46 P

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Barron, thats a test I've routinely done. Havent seen any wobbles lately. After their adjustment the first time, I noticed wobbling. Should have known that was the sign.

- Mark

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DDOORN's Photo DDOORN Posts: 23,427
10/4/11 6:22 P

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Being on the heavier side (200-240) over the past couple of years...never had the spoke problem. But always a good plan to keep an eye on one's bike.

Don

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"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." --- Carlos Castaneda

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
10/4/11 5:07 P

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MLMAVERICK,

Quick test! After you finish a ride pick your rear wheel off the ground, look down so you can see clearance between the brake shoes if you have them or hold some on the seat stay that is about 3/32 from the rim, spin it. If it wobbles a lot get it to the bike shop, by the time you hear the noise it's too late.

Get in the habit of checking things all the time.

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
10/4/11 4:32 P

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correct, the issue was with the wheel spokes. Sorry, terminology is still all new to me haha.

Good news is, the LBS did a good job on the second time around on the bike wheels and I heard nothing but the road last night when i put 20 miles on it.

I asasume i'll need to do that every 200 miles or so since I'm a heavier guy, but I can live with it!

- Mark

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
9/28/11 12:56 P

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MLMAVERICK,

Just so others are not confused. What you call tires are actually the wheel, correct?

The wheel has a hub, spokes, and rim. Your spokes have gotten loose and caused your rim to wobble or become out of true.

The rims must be trued, X left/right and Y in/out, and the X is also requires a dish that determines how the wheel centers in the dropouts.

Sorry sometimes the terminology can be confusing. Just think, between talking to the LBS and all your Peeps you are learning.

Good luck, looks like you have a plan and LBS will back you up.

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DDOORN's Photo DDOORN Posts: 23,427
9/28/11 12:07 P

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LBS to the rescue!

Great to hear that they're working with you!

Don

Co-Team Leader for All Health Pros, Binghamton Area Losers & Laid Off But Staying Strong SparkTeams

Don't die with your music still in you. -- Dr. Wayne Dyer

"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." --- Carlos Castaneda

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." --- Buddha

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
9/28/11 10:39 A

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Took it back to the LBS, and was lucky enough to talk to the same guy who worked on it the other day. Definitely loosened up the spokes again.

He spent a solid 45 minutes truing up and adjusting both tires this time and really gave them a work-over. Had me take it for a ride to set everything in place and then rode it himself a bit to make sure everything was in order. It sounds proper and seems ok, though I still think one of the tires has an ever so slight wobble to it.

He asked me to take it on another 20 mile ride and see what happens. If it's still having an issue, he'll go to Trek to get 2 new tires sent out. He did agree that my weight is definitely stressing the tires and to expect more routine maintenance than usual, which is what I suspected was the cause, but he did also say that I'm under the weight limit and shouldn't be having issues with only about 250 miles on the tires.

Next chance I'm going to have to ride is Sunday, so we'll see how it goes then.

- Mark

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
9/27/11 2:30 P

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going to take it to the LBS after work. will see what they say and report back here, thanks all.

- Mark

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
9/27/11 1:48 P

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Your LBS should take care of the warranty. It takes about 30 sec on the Trek website for them to fill out the form and send it back.

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
9/27/11 11:32 A

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Contact Trek in Waterloo, WI. Explain it and as for a Return Authorization. They do it all the time.

When the new wheel comes in have the LBS remove any tie and put it in the truing stand. Put and indicator left/right and in/out. Stress the spokes and make it dead nuts, repeat 2 to 3 more time until it doesn't move after stressing.



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TOPAHI's Photo TOPAHI SparkPoints: (14,026)
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9/27/11 12:43 A

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MLMAVERICK,

Your weight shouldn't be an issue with wheels you have.
A 32 spoke wheel should be plenty strong.
I rode a Trek 7.5FX at 260 lbs and that model has a low spoke count wheel.
In over 3500 miles they never needed more than a very minor true... twice.

It sounds like your bike shop MAY not be great at truing the wheel properly (or didn't take the time).
It caught my attention when you said "they got it looking better"
It should have been perfect (or nearly so).
Have them redo it properly or try having it done at another shop.
They should be checking for:
Radial True
Run-Out
Dish
Spoke tension.

Also, you could just have a bad wheel.
It happens.
Sometimes the factory ships a bad wheel that can't be trued.
If you bought the bike at a shop they should warranty a replacement.

Edited by: TOPAHI at: 9/27/2011 (00:44)
Tom

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The treadmill is NOT!

Never argue with idiots... They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
9/26/11 9:45 P

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Went for my first ride after I had the LBS work on the tire. First 5 miles were perfectly fine, miles 5-10 i thought i heard something, but it was faint, miles 10-20, it seemed louder than ever before.

I guess that means i'm probably going to need new tires that are rated for a heavier weight? emoticon

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BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
9/26/11 2:57 P

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I've been building wheels since the 60's. Built many for tandems 40 and 48 with teams going 550 lbs plus full touring of about another 80lbs. Never had an issue.

When I build them the most important part is the prep work and the stressing as you go long. Today many wheels are machine made and they cut corners. The wheels are not stressed and they leave it to the LBS or whom ever sells the bike to keep and eye on that.

Sorry you are having trouble. If you lived near me I would teach you how to keep those wheels in good working order. Less is more when working on wheels.

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DDOORN's Photo DDOORN Posts: 23,427
9/26/11 2:41 P

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My weight's varied some...never had this problem, knock on wood! Appreciate the head's up...will file that "sound" in my memory banks!

Don

Co-Team Leader for All Health Pros, Binghamton Area Losers & Laid Off But Staying Strong SparkTeams

Don't die with your music still in you. -- Dr. Wayne Dyer

"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." --- Carlos Castaneda

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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
9/26/11 2:19 P

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they definitely worked the bike over before they let me leave the shop with it, so I dont think it's that.

It's a Trek FX 7.1 with Alloy hubs; Bontrager 750 32-hole double-wall alloy rims

full specs here: www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/f
it
ness/fx/7_1_fx/#/us/en/model/detailsR>?url=us/en/bikes/road/fitness/fx/7_1_fx


i had a pretty solid feeling that it was really due to weight. the front tire is perfectly fine, but obviously my weight (310 when i started, 286 now) sits on the back tire far more often.

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PERRYR's Photo PERRYR Posts: 668
9/26/11 1:07 P

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BARRONVC is right on. Heavy rider and/or wheels that aren't up to par... Once they start to get out of true, the whole thing gets quickly worse. Surprised you didn't break any spokes. Wheels meant for heavier riders or harder riding may be in order. I suggest that you learn to true up your own wheels and maintain them. That will save trips to the LBS...

BARRONVC's Photo BARRONVC Posts: 1,845
9/26/11 12:53 P

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Weight could be an issue but I've always been able to have my stuff hold up. Even a tandem wheels I've built never need any work and that was about 13 years ago.

The wheels might not have been checked over when you got the machine. I hate to say much without seeing the situation. Maybe cheap machine built wheels, maybe the spokes came lose from rain or didn't have the correct tension. Usually wheels should be checked and once they take a set you will be fine.

What kind of bike, what kind of wheels? This can happen when stress is built into the wheel and your riding releases that stress.



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MLMAVERICK's Photo MLMAVERICK Posts: 242
9/26/11 11:39 A

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Over the last two or three rides, I was hearing a faint clicking noise quite routinely that sounded like it was coming from the back of my bike. turns out, some spokes on the rear wheel got bent (somehow??) and the tire had actually warped enough to where the wobble was causing it to rub against both break pads once per revolution. (no WONDER it felt like i was fighting the breaks for the last two 20 and 28 mile rides OMG).

Took it into the LBS and they were able to adjust some things and get it looking alot better.

Anybody ever had that happen? Anybody have any ideas WHY it could happen? The bike's only had about 200-220 miles put on it, and is only a few months old, so it definitely seems like a weird issue for some brand new tires to have.

As much as I hate to question it, could it be an issue with my larger weight sitting on it?

- Mark

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