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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
8/5/09 8:57 A

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Wongerchi & Heyputthatdown:

I will hold the information near and dear to my heart.

Wongerchi:

Once I sit down and roughly map out my at a year glance training program; I'll let you know what I have in place thus far and ask for your opinion. I know I'm weak at hill climbing but as far as the others I'm not sure where I stand? The club TTs each month is what I was hoping to assist me in these efforts. I have done 2 and hoping to do 2 more. There have been 6 opportunities altogether. We have another one on August 10th. As far as endurance racing .... I'll find out on August 16th during the 90 miler.

SO in retrospect I am hoping from the results of the 35.5 RR hilly course, the TTs results, and the endurance RR that I would have a better painted picture of what type of cyclist I am? I have a feeling I will need to work on a lot of factors so I may have to pick and chose what I want to improve upon first and then evaluate and go on from there?

I will keep you posted.

Jim

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HEYPUTTHATDOWN's Photo HEYPUTTHATDOWN Posts: 261
8/4/09 8:29 P

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Jim,

Coach Troy has the answers you seek.

www.spinervals.com/products/item75.c
fm


Spend the winter with him. You won't regret it.

Bob



Edited by: HEYPUTTHATDOWN at: 8/4/2009 (20:30)
I'd rather be sitting on my bike thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about my bike ...
WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
8/4/09 4:45 P

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I have no worries about giving you some workouts. Sit down with the Bible and get a rough schedule together, and then let me know what workouts you need. Budget for 2 hard workouts and two longer aerobic workouts per week. The remainder should be recovery (so short, very easy rides).

Assuming you've read the stuff in the Training Bible, focus on endurance, spinups and big gear/low cadence work for base. Those are your "basic" skills (as defined by Friel - stamina, speed, force). Depending on what your limiters are, add some more intensity into Base 2-3 to target those. For example, looking at my race results my limiter on the bike is muscle endurance - I can push a big gear, but not for long. As a result, I'll work on that specifically. Max volume occurs here (Base 3).

Good workouts here include single-leg stuff, spinups, big-gear work and an aerobic workout. Outdoors is easy, in winter I limit my aerobic workout to 1-1.5hrs on rollers.

Build 1-2 is more intense, race specific stuff. So if you're doing a TT, then you'd focus on TT efforts. If you're doing a hilly RR, then you'd do hill repeats and endurance. Crits? Then short, specific sprint work. Volume goes down as intensity goes up.

Good workouts here are 20' threshold efforts with partial recovery, long (8-10') or short (4-6') hill repeats with recoveries down the hill, or 5' all-out efforts with 2'30" recoveries.

If there's one workout you shouldn't miss from Base 3 onwards, it's the Threshold one. I can do a 2x20 in just over an hour (WU and CD included), perfect for those time crunched/bad weather days. Warm up, then do 2x 20' hard efforts, with 5' recovery. Then cool off. You know you're doing it right when the last 20' lasts a lifetime.

In fact, there's more t'storms today (they've just started) so I'm on the trainer doing those tonight. Wanna join me?

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
8/4/09 11:27 A

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Wongerchi

Of course I would like whatever work outs you have. I basically would have none to start with. It is obvious to me that I would want copies of what someone is already using especially if it is benefiting them and making them a better rider.

Thanks

Jim

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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
8/4/09 11:13 A

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Jim:
My trainer sessions average between 1 and 1.5 hours. The common mistake that many folk make is to "just ride" when they get on the trainer. That's a recipe for boredom - if you want to do that, get rollers. If I'm out for an "endurance" ride I'll hop on those for an hour or so. My trainer is for hard efforts, generally, and you're looking for quality over quantity. I have a whole bunch of workouts which last an hour which I can give you if you like. They will make you a) fast, b) puke, or c) both.

Remember you can ride the trainer all year round too. In fact, I rode indoors on Sunday - our group ride got cancelled due to severe thunderstorms so I hopped on the trainer.

My workout was 90 minutes of quality, focused efforts. 15 min WU, 20 min full-on TT effort, 5' recovery, then onto the rollers for a 40' tempo (fast group ride pace) segment. Back on the trainer for a 10' CD and I was done.



In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
8/3/09 9:14 A

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Wongerchi

I'll be setting a plan up. As far as getting a trainer.....I'll tell the wife that that would limit me to 2 nights of long distance riding and week end early mornings during the season. At least I could get an hours worth of training on the trainer?

Jim

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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
7/28/09 1:12 P

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A good training plan (or any training plan, in fact) is worth it's weight in gold. You have the Bible, use it, but more importantly, have the confidence to stick to your plan. And tweak if necessary. And ditch the spin classes and get an indoor trainer - you'll use it all year round, if you're me.

RRs generally start off pretty mellow. The only time I've been in a mad dash off the line is for crits and CX races, but those only last an hour and speed is used for selection. Your 90 mile RR is ~4hrs racing so it'll be mellow at first.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
7/24/09 4:29 P

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Wongerchi

Amen to getting everything ready the night before. That way you might be able to slip out unnoticed.

As far as the start on the 90 miler they are going to have 3 waves: 21+ mph; 17+ mph and all others. I'll be falling in the 17+ wave. I have not been in enough races to have on record a 21+ mph speed. I would like to be up front to hold a wheel in case there is an early sprint to separate the men from the boys before they get into a cruising speed. At least that is the start I'm anticipating and hopefully I'm right?

I think last year there was a major crash in the first wave which allowed the second wave peloton to catch up and hold a wheel to the first wave peloton. Hence, the reason why I want to be up toward the front of my starting wave.

I also thought I should have rides near the 90 mile or so as well. I did a 75 miler the first week end in June and I was fine during the whole ride and the day after as well. I just needed to fuel myself a little better than I did.

I'm using this year as a learning curve. I'm going to sit down and evaluate what I did this year and put together a training plan for next year. I will have the LBS guy look at it and evaluate it as well. I think if i have a purposeful plan I would feel more confident for my races?

Jim

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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
7/24/09 4:14 P

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Yep that's how I do it. Because I run too I have bike intervals Tues and Thurs, group ride Sun. Generally one of the two interval sessions are inside - I love my trainer for those! Group rides for me are ~3-3.5hrs (~90-100k, but I only do shorter RRs, TTs and crits so I don't need much more). These are pretty spirited though, its not just cruising at conversational pace.

For your 90 mile race you need (I'd need) to have a couple of rides there or thereabouts. Just to practise fueling and stuff and getting the confidence of actually doing it. You may be able to substitute a higher intensity for less miles if you think that's going to work (so do like my group ride - 50-60 miles with a 1-1.5hr hard block in the middle). Remember, with the 90 miler, chances are the group is going to roll off the line at a pretty sedate pace for the first third and if you can stay in the group you'll save a ton of energy.

Early starts are critical - get everything ready the night before, and just get up and go. If I get ready the night before, then my early group ride starts are much more bearable for the DW.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
7/23/09 1:33 P

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Wongerchi:

Thanks for the info on the electrolyte. I'll have to experiment.

Your comment on the endurance is true to heart. Last night the DW and I got into a discussion that she doesn't mind my bike riding as long as it is an hour or so. She has issues with the rides being 2-3 hours or more. I reminded her of the fact that if I'm going to be in races that are 40 miles, 50 miles or even 90 miles (August 16th) that riding for only 20 miles is not going to accomplish much for me.

I may have to reserve my endurance rides on SAt. and Sun when I can get up at 5:30 am and ride until 8:30 or 9:30 am. The family usually is not up until 8:00-9:00 am as it is. Keep the shoter rides/intervals for during the week?

Jim

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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
7/23/09 1:15 P

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Jim:
Thanks for thinking of me! Great job on the nutrition. Check your sports drink for cals, mine is 100 cals per bottle but for a 1.5hr ride you're easily good with a powerbar and drink (300 cals and you needed 220).

Then your cramping is likely to be a function of going hard (like GLADGAD mentioned) and being a salty sweater. The going hard is all in the training. If you're losing touch on the back end think about your endurance as well as doing the hill/interval stuff.

For the salty sweating, I'd recommend the electrolyte tabs for faster electrolytes than really food. I don't like the ones that dissolve in water (e.g. nuun) but I like the caplets. The ones which are high in Na+ and Ca2+ work for me. I take some before a ride and then whenever it's gel time. There is always a lull somewhere, that's when it's time to eat (or at the back of the group).

A couple of people I know SWEAR by a couple of Tums tabs to avoid cramping. Doesn't quite work as well for me as the tabs, but it would be worth a shot.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
7/23/09 1:01 P

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Wongerchi:

It was you who I thought of last night when I bought the 2 power ade bars. I read the number of calories and it said 200 and I knew I would go through my eletrolyte bottle which is another 200 cals (I think?). So I had one bar about 10 mins before we started and had the other in the back jersy pocket. I did not bonk.

The ride was 30 miles and I finished it in 1 hour and 32 mins.

I'm also a salty sweater as well. So maybe I will consider the electrolyte tabs as well as the drink? Or double the scoop in one water bottle? I need to do something else for the cramping. I will try to increase my banana intake during the week but I think I'm going to need something else that is more instaneuous. Is there such a creature?

I really think I would have caught them in sight but I was so afraid of having an all out cramp that that I flirted on the brink of having one and not having one. Which of course caused me to be slightly slower in the flats and really cautious on the remaining climbs.

I was proud of the fact that the front half of the ride I attacked between 18-22 mph and the back half went to 16-18 mph on the climbs.

Like I said it was very encouraging last night. Do some more hill intervals and speed intervals and I should be comfortable in a few more weeks?

Jim

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WONGERCHI's Photo WONGERCHI Posts: 3,889
7/23/09 12:41 P

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Jim:
How long's the ride? You know my golden rule of nutrition by now: 1 cal per lb of bodyweight per hour for any ride over an hour. If you're under, take more. It's better to slightly overeat than undereat!

I absolutely swear by this rule. Yeah it means that on a 3-4hr ride I'll be laden with bottles, but when I'm the one pushing the pace at the end and everyone else is getting the hunger bonk, that's fine by me! And if I eat right I recover much faster (and eat less when I get home), all the more important given that I'm a multisporter.

For cramps, I use electrolyte tabs - I'm a salty sweater and need to bump up the electrolytes otherwise I cramp up all over the place.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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GLADGAD's Photo GLADGAD Posts: 5,608
7/23/09 12:40 P

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Sounds like you're making progress. Your cramping might have also come from pushing harder than normal.

-Carolyn

"God gave you your body as a gift, so you should take care of it." - My Mom
JHOLLNAGEL Posts: 1,768
7/23/09 11:19 A

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I know earlier I mentioned in April that I was disappointed of my off-season results. Well last night was the first time back to the race pace group ride.

Well I was dropped but I was not totally disappointed because it was the first time back on the bike in 2.5 weeks plus I have not been riding as much as I would like. However, I was able to stay with them for about half way or so ..... the hills I was able to attack and accelerate vs trudging along. On the flats I would re-gain a wheel but then we came to hilly portions without a long enough flat for me to catch a wheel again. I kept them in sight and was pushing myself to bridge the gap. I could see I was gaining but then lost what I gained through the hilly part again. I know I was able to make up time again on the flats but not enough to see them in the distant.

The cat 3+ riders added another 5 miles to their route but I was able to finish ahead of them (usually they pass me on the home stretch) I finished well enough ahead of the third group but found out one cyclist had rear wheel issues. There was another group we past on the front half of the route and I passed them where the elite riders would normally pass me.

I averaged about 19.7 which is my fastest ever. The group I was chasing was about 5 minutes ahead of me. In cycling that is a lot but for me it is encouraging because I think I can hang with them by mid August or September for sure.

I ate a power bar before the ride and and went through my electrolyte bottle and half of my water bottle.

I had to slow up because of muscle cramping in the right calf and quad. I continued to push just enough to not get into a full blown cramp. This occurred on the last portion of the hills. I drank plenty of water at work .... I probably had consumed 2-3 quarts of water. I'm wondering if I should include a quart of endurance electrolyte mix on the day of these rides?

Jim

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