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TOPIC:   Bike Ride after Re-Fitting 


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JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/25/08 11:25 A

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W

I can start off with that .... this would give me a chance to check in with the family (wife) to see if things are fine and then continue on.

On rides greater than 50 ... I could do my 50+ loop and then the smaller loop and then build up the second smaller loop.

I'm reserving the long rides over the week ends now. I think if I start early enough in the day I can get them in without disrupting family time too much. Especially if I'm continuing with a 10-20 mile loop I would be gone 75 mins. tops. The first loop would be accomplished when they are all still in bed sleeping;-)

I will give myself an hour to hour and half on the hill work out time frame. I'll see how many reps I can get in on the first attempt and then gauge it from there.

I'll keep you posted and get your advice on what to do. I wish I would have started this earlier in the season.!!!! I think I will have all of September to ride and October will be iffy. It will probably be similar to my April rides.

If I get some cold weather gear for my B'day in October .... I may be able to stretch my riding time through October and possibly into November depending on temps.

Jim


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WONGERCHI
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8/25/08 10:33 A

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Jim:
I have a great hill for repeats here - 8-10% grade, 2k in length and it takes me 6 mins or so to get up. I have a longer hill (5% grade, 3.5k, 10 minute ascent) which I do longer repeats on but I haven't been able to get past 4 before the quality goes.

On the short hill I start with 4x reps and build to 8x over about 2 months. I can get to the hill pretty quickly (25-30 mins) so the whole ride takes just under 2:00 if I'm doing 8 repeats. If you're doing "fixed gear" stuff over rollers then I'd build to probably 3x 20 minutes, so even then with rest (and WU and CD) that should take about 1:30 tops.

I limit my weekday evening rides to 1:30-2:00 tops simply because I want some family time. Remember, if it's quality miles then you don't have to log a lot of saddle time especially if you don't want to ride long distances. Saying that, I find the long bike something that I need at least every other week or so (during the season I've taken to alternating run-bike bricks with long bikes).

With the long bike, how about doing your 30 mile loop and then your 20 mile loop? That way you can stop at home, get something to eat and refill your bottles etc. I know lots of runners who do that on a long run and it works well for them...

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/23/08 8:05 P

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W

Thanks for the work out plan. I think it is very do able for me. I'm pretty much limited to Sat., Sun., Wed (Group Ride) for riding. If I can squeeze in more it is a plus.

On the hill work out .... how many times (repetitions)??? If I can keep this under an hour I may be able to sneak at least one if I'm lucky 2. But I think one would do it for me.

The challenge is finding a 60-70 mile route. I think I have a 50+ may be 60 that I can try and then see if I can add on mileage some place else to increase the rides.

I probably have all of September to ride and October will be iffy. I may get lucky and get all of October in. However, during the week nights it will have to be limited to an hour or hour and a half tops because of day light. My long rides will have to be on the week ends. Depending on weather I would be able to leave around 5:00 - 5:30 am and still be home around 9-11:00 am at the latest. I would still have the rest of the day with the family.

At the start of my cycling season next april .... I'm going to want a work out suggestion from you mileage wise to build up fast.

My intentions over the winter months is spinning classes, extensive leg weight lifting with light to moderate upper body. I will incorporate crunches to keep the core tight. I will not get 6 pack abs until I'm at 8% body fat and I do not see that ever occurring. I'll admit I'm past my prime for that. LOL

Eventually, I will want to invest in rollers for the winter months and/or bad weather days over the riding season.

Jim


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WONGERCHI
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8/22/08 4:33 P

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Hmm, I'm not really sure. If it was me, I'd do it once a week as a hill workout.

From what you've said - you can hang with the group up to a point and then get dropped - sounds like you need to work on stamina to me. You're going to hate me for this but I think you'd benefit from a regular weekend long SLOW ride rather than going out and blasting all the time!

Your group ride is 30 miles so you'd need to work up to around 60-70 miles at a moderate pace (take your longest ride, repeat it and then add, say, 5 miles every week). As we're about the same speed my cruising pace is around 18mph so I'd suggest you sit around there. It will feel crazy easy at first but after 3+ hours it'll be harder. These long rides are great for building endurance as you're working in that reasonably comfortable pace. I think of it as my "perpetual" pace - if I had to I could go that fast all day. These long rides are also great for figuring out bike nutrition. These days I like to spice it up a bit with a half dozen short (30s-1 min) random bursts of sprinting, e.g. off a downhill, past a mailbox, away from a charging dog, etc...

I guess it's harder for you to get away to do this than I do but I've found that getting my long bike in during the early mornings is best. Cooler, less traffic and I'm generally in a more chilled out rather than a hammerfest mood. I force myself to be on the road at 7am. I top out at 3:30 (100k; 28.5kph average) so I'm back, eaten and showered by say 11:30am. My tri coach starts her long bikes at 5am so she can get family time in but she does Half Iron stuff...

Building on-bike power is easy - hill repeats. Especially big-gear/low cadence stuff. Or mashing into a headwind. The low gear stuff is the key to turning a bigger gear faster - combine those with the fast group ride and you'll get fit fast. But watch the knees!

I'm not sure what I'd do with a 4th ride (probably recovery) but my 3 rides a week are:

Long Slow
Hills
Intervals/TT/Fast Group



Edited by: WONGERCHI at: 8/22/2008 (16:32)
In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/22/08 9:59 A

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W

I like this suggestion .... the area I'm thinking of is just down the road from my house. The hills are very suddle but in the mid range gears and trying to do 60-70 cadence without shifting will be a great challenge and work out.

About how many times should I do this for a good work out? It sounds like this will help me use less energy on the hills with the Wed. Night group rides yet give me stamina and power to stay with the group a lot longer?

Since I'm so close now .... I would like it to be a goal to end the season with a couple of rides being able to stay with them the whole route. I'll make next year my goal to be able to pull for this same group.

It is funny because I was talking with some of the riders after the ride and they said to not worry about the first elite group but concentrate on staying with us .... this way you are not expending so much energy in the beginning and thus being able to stay with us longer. They said that I'm not that far from being able to ride with them the whole way. Don't worry about placement in the pace line just stay tight with the group in the back and hold your tire and line. This has really encouraged me to push myself even more now. Which is why I want to work harder during my rides outside of the Wed night group rides.

It is nice to see that I'm gaining a little more respect from the other riders which is either due to being on the rides weekly and/or improving from week to week as well?

Jim


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WONGERCHI
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8/21/08 5:10 P

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Jim:
Another variation on the workout that Bob suggested is to find an out-and-back route with rolling hills, warm up well, and then stick your bike into a moderate gear and go 20 minutes on the rollers without changing gear. Recover for say 10 minutes (turn around after 5') and repeat.

Here you're building power with the low cadence stuff going up the hill, and leg speed with the high cadence stuff going down the hill.

Don't push too hard a gear - I use my TT gear (big ring, middle cogs) and get cadences of around 60-70 uphill and 100+ downhill. I really like this workout, I don't do it anywhere near as much as I'd like.

If you have dodgy knees be careful too.



EDITED because the first version of this post didn't make sense!

Edited by: WONGERCHI at: 8/21/2008 (17:18)
In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/21/08 3:30 P

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Bob there is a real steep hill in comparison to what we have but it would be too far to get to on bike and I could travel via van but then you have the doown time.

However, just down the road from me I do have real gentle/suddle hills that I could hammer up and down and back and forth. That would give me a great intrval workout.

Thanks for the suggestion and the tip. In this case it is not the mileage I would be getting in but a more intense work out which would make me stronger in the small climbs on the Wed Night Group Rides.;-) LOL

Jim


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HEYPUTTHATDOWN
HEYPUTTHATDOWN's Photo Posts: 261
8/21/08 3:17 P

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Jim,

It is always better to spend time with family when opportunities present themselves ... I hope you don't think I was suggesting otherwise.

If you're looking to do a quick workout and have on an hour so, how about doing a 5 minute high cadence warmup and find the hilliest section of road around and hammer up and coast down. Voila! instant intervals!

Bob

I'd rather be sitting on my bike thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about my bike ...


JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/21/08 1:32 P

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Bob

I normally get 3-4 rides in during a week but my wife was feeling better and I thought it would be smart to do family time and forego trying to get a bike ride in. What I might do is get a quick 15 miler in if I do not have the time for a longer one .... at least I would be getting some spinning in. This would be better than no rides or miles at all.

Jim


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HEYPUTTHATDOWN
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8/21/08 1:03 P

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Jim,

Your comment about eating and drinking on the commute home made a lot of sense. If you start your ride dehydrated and undernourished, it isn't going to matter what you drink or eat on the bike. I recall that you have a long commute; you might as well make good use of your time.

FWIW, I'm good with just drinking water unless the ride is longer than about 2 hours. I have to admit that I hate the drinks and gels.

On longer rides like centuries I have learned to make myself start eating an hour or so into the ride. In those cases, apples, bananas and the ever-popular PB&J do it for me; I'll also take in diluted sports drink.

It probably also makes sense for you to ride more than once a week (I know, kids). Those "big boys" you are trying to hang with probably do.

BTW, if you find yourself being dropped when the ride hits the hilly parts, you are not alone. You are one of the many of us who suffer from Newton's Disease also known as gravititus (the only known cure for which is rice cakes).

Bob


Edited by: HEYPUTTHATDOWN at: 8/21/2008 (13:08)
I'd rather be sitting on my bike thinking about God than sitting in church thinking about my bike ...


JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/21/08 12:44 P

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W

I have tried Hammer and I tried chocolate GU. I felt the chocolate GU was too thick for me to swallow so I will try a different GU and go from there.

I will try the eLoad drinks and see what happens

Thanks

Jim


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WONGERCHI
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8/21/08 12:17 P

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Jim:
Energy drinks and gels etc are a matter of personal preference unfortunately. It's whatever works for you. I tried out a whole load back in March/April and blogged about it (blogpost titled "The Great Gel Experiment") and all I can suggest is try a load and see what works and what doesn't. What works for you may not work for me and vice versa...

Once you get it right stick to it. I love GU gels and eLoad drinks myself.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


 current weight: 190.0 
 
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JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/21/08 12:00 P

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W

I would not have believed it in the past but wow what a difference dialing in the proper fit can make.

I will go to energy drinks because I find it hard to swallow when eating something solid while riding.

I will tape a gel to the top tube frame and see what that will do for me?

What type of energy drink would you recommend to use on the rides???

You have read all of posts and you pretty much know where I'm at in my cycling endeavors.

Jim


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WONGERCHI
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8/21/08 11:26 A

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Jim:
Told you a good bike fitting was free speed!

Glad that you got your position dialled in - make sure you have everything marked and distances noted just in case you have to switch saddles or something or for setting up the new bike in the future. For me the critical thing is saddle height, saddle fore-aft and reach to handlebars. Everything else falls out from there. When I got fitted it took a couple of rides to get used to the new position, so there was some muscle soreness in various places but that went after a while.

However, I definitely think that you need to eat more on the ride. I've said this repeatedly so sorry for the repetition, but my rule of thumb is 1 cal per lb of bodyweight per hour for anything over an hour. This would mean that you'd need to eat 200 cals per hour on the bike (same as me). I use gels and energy drinks (1 gel and 1 bottle of drink per hour) but real food would work although liquids get to the muscles faster.

This formula has worked countless times this season especially on group rides. It seems every ride I'm at the front at the end of the ride, towing back people who have been shelled. And I feel great afterwards!

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


 current weight: 190.0 
 
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JHOLLNAGEL
Posts: 1,768
8/21/08 11:04 A

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First you will have to read what changes we made on the re-fitting of the bike.

But I ALMOST HUNG WITH THE SECOND TIER ELITE GROUP LAST NIGHT. I was able to hang with them 15 miles into the ride. I got cut off on a turn and had problems (energy) to try and catch up. I was in their vapor trails until about the 19-20 mile mark. And then at the 23-24 mile mark I bonked. Boy was it hard to get motivated and stay on tasked. I was at the hill portion of the trip on the last leg home.

Once I was on the flats I could gear it up again and then I started to get leg cramps/tightness in the calves and left quad muscle. Every time I wanted to put the hammer down I could feel the twinge. So I was trying to ride at the point between comfort and cramping ... that was an experience.

My average speed for the ride was 19.79 mph. I was at one time trekking 20.1 mph. Once I hit the head wind with no one to draft and when I was bonking on the hills is when I lost the 20.1 avg speed.

However, I was able to pass 3 people on the final stretch home from the 23 mile route and for the second time I was able to beat the first tier guys back from the 40 mile route.

SO .... I'm thinking if I would have drank more water and possibly ate 1-2 protein bars on the commute home from work that possibly I would have made three quarters of the ride with them if not the whole way????

This was also my first ride in a week as well. They said their avg speed was 21.2.

Are there any thoughts, advice, recommendations.

By the way I only bring water on the ride would an energy drink be better?

Thanks,

Jim


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