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WONGERCHI
WONGERCHI's Photo Posts: 3,889
4/1/08 1:45 P

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And here's why when it comes to nutrition, everyone's an experiment of one...

Hammer products REALLY don't work for me. Perpetuem gives me HORRIBLE gas, on the run and on the bike. However, it tastes nice and I could do with the added propulsion! My only guess is that it's the protein - Accelerade also does the same thing. Not tried HEED though although it is somewhere on the list as an alternative to Gatorade - my current drink of choice.

Likewise, the Hammer gels also give me bloat for some reason, mainly on the run. I'm really stumped by this as GU gels are GREAT for me but there's not much difference in the ingredients between the two - have to look more closely I think. I'm experimenting with Clif Shot Bloks (chewy jujube thingies) on the bike and they're good apart from the choking hazard they present when you sprint suddenly with one in your mouth...

I've used drinks/gels to fuel brick workouts of up to 3 hours (2hr run, 1hr bike) and it's worked a treat. I prefer gels/water on the run and Gatorade/water/solids on the bike. However, what brand/combination works best for me may not necessarily be the same for everyone - it's all a question of trying out things...

In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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MORTGAGED
MORTGAGED's Photo Posts: 161
4/1/08 10:43 A

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Perpetuem is my favorite along with their Vanilla and Orange gels. I typically mix 1 gel to 2 scoops of perpetuem in a bottle and use straight water in my camelback. I started trying them because I thought all of the other products out there tasted too sweet and would make me sick. My LBS recommended their products a few years ago and I've used them ever since.


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DRUMMER8280
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4/1/08 12:36 A

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YES!!! Hammer-nutrition products are great, I train and race on "perpetuem" its essentially a complex carbohydrate...I like the taste of the orange- vanilla flavor, but they have others, some of my friends will mix it up thick and sip it throughout the day, but I just like putting 1-2 scoops in each of my bottles per hour and so forth...they also have a product called "HEED" that is for shorter rides that last 1 to 3 hours...It comes in Mandarin, lime, and or plain flavor...it is much sweeter than the "perpetuem"...I have drank ALOT of stuff on my training and during my races...Gatorade(too sweet after a while, plus doesn't have the carbohydrates and or proteins needed for a long ride), Cytomax (don't like the after taste, and don't feel that it did anything for me), accelerade (Great drink, just didn't like the after taste), Gels of every brand (which don't really work after 4 hours of riding) they are good for shorter period of hard efforts, and NOT sustained efforts...thatís my experience with these products at least...But I got to try these all out for free and see how they would work for me, to do this it would get expensive after a while I would think

Keep riding =)



A Goal witout a plan is just a Dream





MORTGAGED
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3/31/08 1:44 P

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Definitely some great advice below on the heart rate monitor and I use mine regularly.

One other possibility: Lack of energy due to poor fueling (nutrition).

Specifically, not enough carbs consumed before and during the ride. The symptoms you describe are very indicative of simply running out of energy (glycogen stores) after a moderate length of time and then not being able to pull from your reserves fast enough to have enough energy during the latter portion of the ride for the hard push to the finish. Are you taking any type of fuel during the ride? Typical glycogen depletion can happen between 45-60 minutes at a moderate to aggressive pace. (Otherwise known as "bonking"). You need to start fueling early enough to prevent running out of carb's. 100 to 300 calories per hour is a typical range depending on intensity. Try checking out: hammernutrition.com to give you more technical detail and some possible options. The site is definitely hardcore, but full of great information.


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HERDFAN2
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3/19/08 12:53 P

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Great discussion on training. I have not used my HRM for a couple of years, but this has persuaded me to get it out. There is no more scientific way to train and gauge workouts.

Heart rate is also a great way to monitor recovery and overtraining. If your resting HR (take it first thing in the morning) starts to climb while you are in season it is a sure sign your body is saying WHOA.

Now if it would just raining here in Ohio.


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DRUMMER8280
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3/19/08 12:02 A

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Ah yes, HRM...I used to use an HRM, but don't have much need for one anymore...I know my body and how it functions to a T...I haven't done my base time trial in a while, but I'm not a TT man anyways =)(don't like throwing up while I'm on the bike) haha =)
but, I do know that my heart rate range is...
42 resting
54 functional
202 max

A Goal witout a plan is just a Dream





PAIGECSLP
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3/9/08 3:59 P

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lol! okay, I'll keep that in mind! ;-)

Paige

~~~o
_ \ (,_
( * )/ ( * )


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SPARTYJR3000
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3/9/08 3:43 P

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P: I thought I would mention that you are not allowed to put two cents in any more. Since the gov't wants to do away with pennies it has to be a whole nickel or nothing. :P Yeah that was a really lame joke but I couldn't resist that. :D


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PAIGECSLP
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3/9/08 3:40 P

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ELLA2012, everyone has been giving great info. here and I'd like to add my 2 cents ;-) First of all, for a good test of heart rate zones, you'll find a great resource on the heartzones.com website under their free workouts, it's called "The Foster Sub-Max Heart Rate Test" the link is: www.heartzones.com/resources/

They also have some other great free cycling workouts on the same resource page. They're all downloadable PDF files.

Secondly, I have found what has worked best for me in building endurance is doing interval training, this is what my cycling coach recommended and I've found it's made a huge difference for me. You can do these either indoor our out and again, there are a few examples on that heartzones.com resource page but I have found the best ones to be the Spinervals DVD series. I purchased their Aero Base Building Series of DVDs and love them! They're 5 different workouts ranging from 50-80 minutes each with the last one being a full 2 hour compilation of the other workouts. I also have a 1 mile section of road near my house without any stops that is fairly flat. I start at the signal and go out as hard as I can for the full 1 mile and then come up the other side at an easy spin for recovery. I do that anywhere from 3-5 times, usually added on to a longer ride or when I'm short on time I just do the intervals.

Doing these intervals has helped to increase both my endurance and my speed.

Anyway, I hope this in addition to all of the other great advice given here helps!

Paige

~~~o
_ \ (,_
( * )/ ( * )


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SPARTYJR3000
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3/7/08 10:13 P

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K and W: Thanks for putting that out there for all of our team. I like presenting questions like that. I was pretty sure no one else was going to ask it and it's really important to put it out there. I have it set into my HRM and I don't really look at them any more. I just listen for the beep that tells me to speed up or slow down. :D It's a great device and for all of you out there when you find one that works for you then stick by it until you have higher needs or different needs. Good luck and watch your HR.


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ELLA2012
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3/7/08 9:45 P

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Thanks wongerchi, I love data. I'm going to try to do a test in the gym this weekend. Unfortunately, it's snowing so I can't ride outside. I miss my bike!



F8TH637
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3/7/08 5:38 P

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This is all really good information. I think I've been pushing too hard on my rides.

- Angel

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http://exercise.lbl.gov/index.html
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KJEANNE
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3/7/08 4:03 P

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Leave it to WONGERCHI to present a systematic way to determine the training zones! I am going to assume that you have one of the HRM that record your heart rate the entire session so you can be sure of your average for the 30 minute test! Gonna love a cyclist who loves his stats!

Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.
African proverb


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WONGERCHI
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3/7/08 3:41 P

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ELLA2012:
Like KJEANNE, none of the HR formulas work for me so real-life testing is the way to go. The best way to set up your HR zones is to do a max HR test but that's damn hard work. An easier way to get your zones is to do a Lactate Threshold test (from Friel's Training Bible, great read, BTW) - I do it every 6-8 weeks or so for both cycling and running and work out my zones from there. I like this method as it's reasonably easy to do, is a good workout in itself and doesn't take ages to recover from (like a max HR one does, at least for me). Also, LT is very trainable so this will move up with time and your zones can be adjusted as necessary.

So how do you do this? First, make sure you're well rested. Then hop on the bike (road or trainer, I prefer doing this on the trainer as it's consistent everytime) and warm up well - 15 minutes. Then you're going to do a 30 minute all-out effort in a gear that you can maintain ~90RPM in for the duration. Your LT will be your average HR for the last 20 minutes of the time trial. Once you're done, cool down for 15 minutes.

So you've got your LT HR, this gives you top of Z4 - anything above this is totally anaerobic, and hurts like hell after a couple of minutes. To work out the other zones, here's what you do:

Top Z1 (Recovery zone): LTHR x 0.826
Top Z2 (Endurance): LTHR x 0.890
Top Z3 (Tempo pace): LTHR x 0.933
Top Z4 (LT intervals): LTHR x 0.99
Top Z5 (Anaerobic): LTHR x 1.093

Remember this is NOT max HR so the multiplication factors are different. To build endurance, I like one weekend long ride (I worked up to 4 hrs last year) in Z1-Z2, and an interval session in Z4 per week. The long ride builds aerobic fitness and energy efficiency. However it's really hard to go slow, but it does work, honest! The intervals push up LT, which is very trainable (my LT has gone up 4bpm in about 3 months). Increasing LT moves up all your other zones - think "rising tide floats all boats".

The long ride should be easy conversational - I'm a strong believer in getting your RPE figured out with HR as HR can be off for one reason or another (overtraining, fatigue, dehydration etc). For me Z1-2 is conversational, Z3 is "irritatingly" hard, Z4 is a "don't talk to me" hard and Z5 is a "cough up a lung" hard.

Wow, this got long in a hurry, hope some of it helps!



In God we trust, all others bring data.
- W. Edwards Demings

If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken Him completely by surprise.
-P.Z. Pearce

Specificity, specificity, specificity.
-Andy Coggan

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
- Frank Kotsonis


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KJEANNE
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3/7/08 2:45 P

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Hereís what I found on Heart Rate Range: HRR
To calculate your heart rate for aerobics without a chart, you will use a formula that can give you a heart rate range inside which your workout intensity should fall.
The formula range is 60-85%, but remember that we know the body burns fat best at 75%, so weíll calculate all three.
220 minus your age, gives your heart rate maximum. Multiply by heart rate percentage (.6,.75 or .85) for range.
So, for a 35-year old woman, the formula would look like this:
at 60% maximum heart rate 220-35 * .60 = 111 per minute
at 75% maximum heart rate 220-35* .75 = 138.75 per minute
at 85% maximum heart rate 220-35* .85 = 157.25 per minute

But remember, this just the starting place. According to this calculation my max would be 166 but I know that is not the case.

Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.
African proverb


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SPARTYJR3000
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3/7/08 12:22 P

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K: What is the calculation for the lower range? I rarely deal with it so I forgot what it is. :P

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KJEANNE
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3/7/08 10:29 A

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ELLA2012
That is a good calculation to start with but then you refine the range by trail and error. Get out on your bike with the HRM on and climb a hill. There will be a point, as your heart rate climbs, when you feel different. That will indicate you have entered youíre an anaerobic range. For me, my legs feel very different. They yell ďNOĒ to me. Itís hard to explain but I know it when it happens. I donít even have to look at my HRM to know I have reached that range. Other people get a stomach ache. Others head ache. Others feel their heart beating. Others their breathing changes.

BTW: when I got my HRM and used the calculation included, it said my upper range was 151 but through trial and error I figured out it was really 161.


Edited by: KJEANNE at: 3/7/2008 (10:30)
Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.
African proverb


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ELLA2012
Posts: 153
3/6/08 10:49 P

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Thanks for all the input. I found out my HRM is age based. I'm going to look in to how to find out what my real range is.




SPARTYJR3000
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3/5/08 12:42 P

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"That's right" (Dave Chappelle voice)
Don't over do the training in that upper range. You will find that if you do trying to recover will be very difficult and you won't be able to continue. This may have been what was happening to you earlier. I purposely tried to do a run in my upper range today and found that I was dead for about ten minutes after I did about two or three sets of 3-4 mins in my upper range. It's really difficult to train properly in that range. Like K said just keep just in side of that top level. Don't go over it unless you need too or are wishing to really hit a hard sprint for a short time. Good luck with your training and I hope all of our pointers will help you out.


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HERDFAN2
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3/4/08 9:11 P

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Great advice. Your body has 2 distinct energy systems. Aerobic for low to moderate intensity and anaerobic which powers sprints and intense efforts. You can only go anaerobic for a couple of minutes before the energy supplies are depleted. The best way to train the anaerobic system is to ride at the upper end of your tolerance. As mentioned below, only do this a couple of times a week or you can overtrain.


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KJEANNE
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3/3/08 10:08 A

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ELLA2012
From what my cycling coach says, you will lose it if you stay in your anaerobic zone for more than 3 minutes. The key is to stay at the very top of your aerobic zone for your spinning workout. But itís good to be wise in your training. If you keep riding in anaerobic you might just burn yourself out because of overtraining. Be patient! You will get better: better endurance and faster times. But your body does have limits. If you push it beyond its limits it will make you pay!

BTW: are you sure you have determined your aerobic zone properly? You can start with the formula that comes with your HRM but then you have to refine the measurement from there. For example, my upper limit was 5 beats higher then using the standard calculation. I can physically tell when I go anaerobic: my body defiantly feels different. It hits me in my legs. I could not be able to maintain that level of exertion for more than a few minutes. So I wonder if you really were anaerobic for the entire spinning class.


Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.
African proverb


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ELLA2012
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3/3/08 7:35 A

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Thanks kjeanne,
I used my heart rate monitor this morning. I was above my aerobic zone for the majority of the spinning class. So I could correlate 96% with that toasted feeling. (I'm not sure how long it's ok to be above the aerobic zone). I'm very impatient to improve. One thing is for sure, riding outside is much more fun. Today the weather is nice. But I have to work.




KJEANNE
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3/2/08 9:24 P

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ELLA2012
I also suggest that you invest in a Heart Rate Monitor if you donít already have one. I use my HRM monitor to make sure I work in the proper zone for optimum speed. If I go over my zone, I lose all energy. When I am over my zone it means that I have entered to anaerobic zone. Along with the HRM, I also monitor my cadence and keep it at @80-90 rpm. If you can stay within your zone, youíll find you can ride for hours without losing it!


Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.
African proverb


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MTNBIKENV
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3/1/08 7:17 P

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When I was working more on endurance on my bike to make group rides easier, I rode solo. I rode very long, but slow rides to get my body used to the idea of hours in the saddle.. then with the endurance came the speed. So I went from having a horrid time, to being the one to lead the group rides.

Marnie
RENO, NEVADA

A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for.



SPARTYJR3000
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3/1/08 12:58 P

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I usually get stronger by riding longer and farther. Then once you have the distance down increase the speed. It all takes time to improve. See it's almost impossible to jump on the speed train and then also increase distance at the same time. So increase your endurance by doing more.


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ELLA2012
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3/1/08 12:42 P

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I get very worn out near the end of a workout. For example today I did a strength leg workout and then went to a spinning class. (maybe not the greatest idea)
I pushed myself during the class and the last 10 minutes were (between difficult and excruciating) and I had to turn the resistance down a bit. I managed to push it during the last 1 minute sprint.
I've gotten this way on club rides too. I can ride with the fast group for a while and then I fall off and just can't keep up at the end. Any ideas on how to improve endurance. I want to ride with a faster group this year.


Edited by: ELLA2012 at: 3/1/2008 (12:44)


 
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