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NOMIS1's Photo NOMIS1 SparkPoints: (52,830)
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12/9/12 8:21 P

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Mark I agree with you.

You can be thankful without invoking Jesus.

Naomi a/k/a Nomi
from New York State
SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
12/8/12 11:25 P

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Mark,

Is "queasy" the same as "to shudder," never mind parts of speech? I feel queasy at the title of this topic because of the juxtaposition of the two words. In the first moment I wonder is someone is trying to impose some belief on me. In the next, I recall the team name. Then I click in not only to catch witticisms, but to be reminded of why the topic has its title I seem to forget the origin of the thread between visits to it.

I want to start a topic and call it "Thanking the planets."

Laurie

LAURIE, NYC
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NUMD97's Photo NUMD97 Posts: 3,044
12/8/12 10:25 P

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Funny you should say that, Boss. My 95-year old aunt just reminded me that the Lubavitchers do a Chanukah menorah candlelighting at the monument by our house, that must be city managed. So there is that, too.

Isn't this the season where brotherhood is supposed to be ever-present? Too bad it doesn't spill over into the rest of the year.

"Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do." - Goethe

"Dare to dream." - Me


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BOSS61's Photo BOSS61 SparkPoints: (14,278)
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12/8/12 9:39 P

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During 11 months here on Spark People, I have learned to take nothing I read, or say, too seriously. Life simply is too short. Those of you who shudder and such - I have to ask why?

That said, I'm the guy who cringes when I see Christmas-anything on any publicly-owned property. I disagree with one cent of tax money spent on Christmas in any way. If church and state are intended to be separate, well, let's get on with it and separate them already.

The National Christmas Tree? No way, when you all elect me President. No Menorah either. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Zero. Why is separation of church and state so difficult?

"Some day we will look back on this, and it will all seem funny" - Bruce Springsteen (The real BOSS, as opposed to me.)





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12/8/12 9:38 P

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How would you suggest that one do that, at a Christian religious event, NOMIS1? Even we Jews do it, but after the meal with the Birchat. And it clearly thanks G-d for the meal we just had.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that IS the purpose of Grace: To thank the Creator for the repast that they are about to enjoy.

PS: I just double-checked on the web, to verify: The last line of their Grace is in "Christ's name".

Edited by: NUMD97 at: 12/8/2012 (22:22)
"Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do." - Goethe

"Dare to dream." - Me


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12/8/12 9:33 P

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I think there is a huge difference in saying grace and saying it by bringing Jesus into it.

Naomi a/k/a Nomi
from New York State
SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
12/8/12 9:20 P

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Pepto Bilmol is pink, isn't it? I can live with that. I would unclick the thread, but don't wan to miss any good quips.

LAURIE, NYC
No one said it would be easy, but it can be easier.


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12/8/12 5:24 P

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Sorry to make you sick, Laurie. If you get queasy, you could always uncheck the box and not get the reports. Either that or PeptoBismol. Your call. emoticon

"Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do." - Goethe

"Dare to dream." - Me


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SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
12/8/12 4:23 P

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He's worth his weight in silver.

P.S. Every time the title of this thread appears in my inbox, my stomach gets queasy.

Edited by: SYLPHINPROGRESS at: 12/8/2012 (16:23)
LAURIE, NYC
No one said it would be easy, but it can be easier.


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12/8/12 10:35 A

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It's OK, Boss. Even at this distance, I know you have sterling qualities whose praises we can sing. emoticon

"Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do." - Goethe

"Dare to dream." - Me


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12/8/12 10:26 A

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Everyone always disagrees with me. Another of the very short list of the few things I do well is to foment disagreement.

"Some day we will look back on this, and it will all seem funny" - Bruce Springsteen (The real BOSS, as opposed to me.)





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12/7/12 8:54 P

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I realize that this is a dated thread, posted some weeks ago, but it caught my eye. I agree in part with SAKS05261. Saying grace before meals, and thanking Jesus, does not make it a religious event per se.

With all due respect, I totally disagree with BOSS61's view of his event. On their business cards, as he pointed out, it was clearly a religious business, and their religious point of view definitely comes into play.

Here's my story: I had an interview several weeks ago at a religious Catholic medical center. The name of the hospital clearly indicates who they are. In the packet I received from HR, it gives their philosophy and their point of view, and how their religion impacts on their day-to-day roles in the workplace. It's a good thing that it is all up front. I was interviewed in the course of a 3-1/2 hour morning by five people, both separately and together, and twice, during two separate interviews, I was told about the Catholic agenda this medical center participates in, vis-a-vis Congress. I said nothing, because it wasn't my place to do so, nor should my views be known, as I see it as inappropriate and not germaine to the job I was to perform. But being a religious institution, it permeates every aspect of their lives. If you don't want to come on board, that's your choice. And it really wasn't a question of proselytizing their point of view. This is how they live (at least at this institution), and how they believe.

What I consider idiotic, is when an institution debates whether to call their Christmas tree, a Christmas tree or a "holiday tree". Now I don't know about you, and with the exception of a "Chanukah bush", whose concept I loathe to my core, seeing it as an emulation of Christian beliefs, no other religious group has a tree this time of year, except the Christians, so why not call it what it is: A Christmas tree.

We live in a predominantly Christian country where we Jews are, of course, one of the minorities. As long as someone isn't strong-arming me to convert, from where I sit, it's all good.

Sometimes giving people the benefit of the doubt is the best road to travel. Unless it appears otherwise, I would leave it at that.

Edited by: NUMD97 at: 12/8/2012 (14:52)
"Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do." - Goethe

"Dare to dream." - Me


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DANCEQUEEN1051's Photo DANCEQUEEN1051 Posts: 2,352
11/22/12 5:52 A

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sounds like a positive outcome

no one who never made a mistake never tried anything new. Albert Einstein

In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure.
Bill Cosby



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SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
11/19/12 4:53 P

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It sounds as though you presented your feeling in a way palatable to him and he took it with good thought. Good for you.

LAURIE, NYC
No one said it would be easy, but it can be easier.


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11/19/12 12:33 P

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So far it has not. He is part of the group I walk with on Monday mornings, and we walked together. Here's hoping.

Naomi a/k/a Nomi
from New York State
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11/19/12 9:33 A

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Good for you. Let's hope your relationship does not change.

"Some day we will look back on this, and it will all seem funny" - Bruce Springsteen (The real BOSS, as opposed to me.)





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11/19/12 9:19 A

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I spoke to the person who said this blessing. Said I didn't think it was appropriate since this is a nonsectarian group. He was quite apologetic and said if another member was there he would have called him on it immediately. Said he just didn't think. Thought that was the case but feel much better for saying something.



Naomi a/k/a Nomi
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11/18/12 9:03 P

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Thanks for the input.

I think he just didn't think. What else is new?

Spoke to another Jewish person who was there and she also was offended.

I'm still thinking of saying something. See how I feel when I see him.

P.S. I went to my friend's house today and when she said its time to say grace, I thought here goes - but it is her house, and her belief. Was over quickly. I had a wonderful day and I thanked Adonai.

Edited by: NOMIS1 at: 11/18/2012 (21:05)
Naomi a/k/a Nomi
from New York State
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11/18/12 12:31 A

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I dealt with this forever at my school - finally, after I ended up nearly in tears at one faculty meeting held the first day of Chanukah (and beginning with a "thank you Jesus" prayer) we had a meeting of the school improvement team - and the team voted to have non-denominational prayers (my compromise suggestion) - so the principal would give the blessing before a meal or something, and say "In your name we pray."

Took a while, and I called him on it every time someone did something overtly Christian - because this was a public school.

May revert now that I'm gone - but at least most people were enlightened while I was there.

"Dance as if no one is watching."


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11/17/12 4:33 P

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I think everyone has made good points

no one who never made a mistake never tried anything new. Albert Einstein

In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure.
Bill Cosby



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SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
11/17/12 4:31 P

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Both options were intended to be taken as tongue in cheek -- just to make a point.

LAURIE, NYC
No one said it would be easy, but it can be easier.


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11/17/12 4:25 P

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Option b sure would make the event more interesting. and prob change future events. i still think the guy who was preaching would not call it religious event and option would not be ....an option. i think i'd have to think about going to anything any more with that guy. sad. weigh the choices.

SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
11/17/12 4:17 P

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The part I left out was that, if it were to be a religious occasion, Naomi (or whomever) would pass. The individual may get a message out of it.

I prefer option (b) anyway.

Edited by: SYLPHINPROGRESS at: 11/17/2012 (16:20)
LAURIE, NYC
No one said it would be easy, but it can be easier.


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11/17/12 4:05 P

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Laurie, you dont really think that people who do what they did are going to tell you that it's religious do you? people like that think that if you do something fun for an hour and they speak jesus for 15 minutes, it's not a religious event. even if they do 30 minutes or an hour of fun and an hour of religion, they wont consider it religious. to them it's what it is, an event and they thank jesus and try to get everyone else to also

SYLPHINPROGRESS's Photo SYLPHINPROGRESS Posts: 13,302
11/17/12 3:57 P

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Naomi,

You might ask that the notices to any future gatherings of the walking group do one of the following:

a) indicate whether the gathering is to be of a social or religious nature, or

b) suggest that adherents of all religions in attendance have a chance to do a prayer or make a brief statement.

I hope you have some mature Zoroastrians or Hindus living in your town. Even more, I hope you have both.

Laurie

LAURIE, NYC
No one said it would be easy, but it can be easier.


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11/17/12 10:29 A

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The owner if the company i work for is christian and always at the holiday dinner (i think he started calling it the holiday dinner when i said i couldnt come on the date he set it for as i was having a small hanukah party) he says a prayer and lighly thanks jesus. again, its a light prayer and i knew he was that way when i took the job. i expected it. it still annoys me but i sit quietly and wait for the end. i'd prefer it wasnt there and if it was heavy handed, i would no longer go to the dinner.

however, i worked for the feds for 35 years. i did say something there. it was out of place and unallowable. i did not have the courage to say it to the person who did it, but i said something to that persons good work friend. i admit to being chicken - i said something like "wow, he could really get in trouble with eeo - there shouldnt be any religious stuff at a gov't event. hope no one complains". it didnt happen the next year. i dont know if the friend thought i would (i wouldnt have at that point). i know it was chicken, but it worked.

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11/17/12 8:52 A

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Now what does drive me crazy is encountering the overt practice of Christianity at a governmental function or by a governmental official. And again, they are clueless in that we find it offensive (as well as unconstitutional). To them, "being a good Christian" is akin to "being a mensch" - the meaning is identical.

Edited by: BOSS61 at: 12/8/2012 (10:27)
"Some day we will look back on this, and it will all seem funny" - Bruce Springsteen (The real BOSS, as opposed to me.)





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11/17/12 8:47 A

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When they say to thank Jesus you can thank G-d . If they keep going you can go to your own place, we're all well versed in letting people ramble on because they want to hear the sound of their own voice. Hearing it does not make you believe in Jesus.

Yaara

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Time Zone: GST + 2 (Jerusalem)

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11/17/12 8:45 A

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Inasmuch as we now own our firm, our office is the one with NO Christmas decorations at all. No Christmas music, etc. We do have a "Holiday Party" but it is completely a-religious. We are closed on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, when I'm known to get some good catch-up work done.

"Some day we will look back on this, and it will all seem funny" - Bruce Springsteen (The real BOSS, as opposed to me.)





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11/17/12 7:59 A

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I love that story Boss!! iti s great

I don't have a story as wonderful as his but I live in Minneapolis. Right smack in the middle of Scandibavian/German/Lutheran/Protestant country as you can get. This happens all the time -- people will do something very similar. If it is a small enough group I say something. If it is large I don't. there is a very tiny Jewish population here. You wouldn't believe the number of people that have told me "I have never met a Jew before" -- that is how few there are here

no one who never made a mistake never tried anything new. Albert Einstein

In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure.
Bill Cosby



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11/17/12 7:56 A

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In all fairness, I work for a Chasidic owned company. We're just as guilty. There are a few non-Jewish employees and less religious ones like me, yet a lot of the meetings are dominated by Yiddish, accommodations are made for Mincha and the company philosophy is strongly guided by their religious beliefs. So I can imagine how the non-Jewish employees feel at my company.

Sandy
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11/17/12 7:35 A

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Story time, Naomi. Dateline 1990.

After spending four years as a State employee and water resources regulator, I eventually figured out that the path to fame and fortune (well, not destitution) as a geologist involved becoming an environmental consultant. So early that year, I changed jobs. Part of the impetus for this was my new girlfriend and the sudden and dramatic consequent uptick in my previously moribund social life. I was learning how little state employees actually made, the hard way. And oh yes, you all know the girlfriend (Susan818127).

So I interviewed with and was offered a position by the then-preeminent environmental consulting firm in this region. The business cards and promotional literature of this firm prominently featured a cross on the logo. At my second interview, the President of the firm told me that no one's religion, ethnicity, race, creed or gender ever had played a role in a hiring or promotional decision at the firm and it never would.

Thus, I became their first-ever Jewish employee. People who knew them, and me, thought I was flat nuts. I encountered no issues with it. Then came the company Christmas Party. It was held in the ballroom of a beautiful country club in the hometown of the corporate headquarters, a full 3 hours from the Maryland branch office to which I had been assigned. The branch office closed at Noon that Friday, so the women could get their hair done and such. People came in tuxedos, leftover bridesmaid dresses, etc.

My new fiance (yep, you know who she is) and I drove up to the Club, endured valet parking and the red carpet treatment. No expense had been spared, except that the party was dry save for a single glass of white wine. We previously had learned of some um... Un-Christian behavior at previous Christmas parties that caused modification of the alcohol policy. If you like traef, you would have loved the jumbo shrimp...

Eventually we settled into our assigned seats, and Susan and I sat with others from our branch office. Dinner came and went, and then came various awards and speeches. The keynote speeches were delivered by the owner and his wife, which (we learned that night0 both are ordained ministers. They told the "Christmas Story" in most reverential terms. They made it a Christian sermon, full of prayers of Thanksgiving and such to Jesus.

We are tapped in this setting and could have died. Our table-mates, none of them Jewish, nevertheless were sensitive to our discomfort. There simply was no need for any of it, but it was their company. We never spoke of our discomfort, and let it all pass like a black storm cloud.

When the speeches ended, we were anxious to leave. "The evening is yours. Join us on the dance floor; go visit the dessert bar..." We did not want to make a scene and bolt for the door (or to the coat-room clerk, to get our coats). But within about 60 seconds of pondering when might be the appropriate time to leave, the line at the coat closet was 100 people deep. EVERYONE wanted to leave, as they had been subjected to the sermon they did not bargain for either.

I honestly believe that the owner and his wife did not have clue one they had been offensive or off-putting in any way. Christian people just don't get that, by and large. It simply does not occur to them. I never said anything to the company president, and never regretted not doing so. I'd let it roll off you, as we did. Hope this helps.

"Some day we will look back on this, and it will all seem funny" - Bruce Springsteen (The real BOSS, as opposed to me.)





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11/17/12 7:05 A

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Yesterday, I went to lunch with the Sr. Walkers. The lunch was organized by the man who organized this group.

Before we started eating he stood up and said something about being thankful. Of course, he was thankful to Jesus. I can't even remember what he was being thankful for. The Jesus stopped me cold.

Do you think it is appropriate for me to say something to him?

Tomorrow I am going to my very good friend's house for a pre-thanksgiving dinner. A good part of her extended family will be there. A very large crowd. She also says a little prayer before we eat, and Jesus may be involved, I can't even remember. However, this is her house.

Am I overreacting?

Naomi a/k/a Nomi
from New York State
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