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-LINDA_S's Photo -LINDA_S Posts: 4,156
4/26/12 7:52 A

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Mark makes a lot of good points. It's come to the point that if it's "conventional wisdom" I usually believe it to be wrong, which is a pretty sad indictment of the current state of affairs.

Linda

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/25/12 10:36 A

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www.marksdailyapple.com/gout-primal-
pa
leo-


This is closer to my point, and the way I am thinking. I eat a lot of protein on low carb, and no gout attacks. Trust me Morticia, when your foot feels like it will explode, you read every article on Earth to take the pain away. I just think they are wrong about the cause. I have trouble when drinking pop mostly. Since I eat meat, I have purines available too, but I only have flare-ups if HFCS(pop ) is in my system. So it seems to be pop more than meat.

I haven't had but one flare-up since Feb 12th, and that was when I had a liter of Pepsi, mid March. I'll need to go 6-12 months with no flare-ups to believe I am correct, but the idea seems plausible, moreso than purines being the reason. If so, I would be crippled all the time.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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MORTICIAADDAMS's Photo MORTICIAADDAMS Posts: 65,997
4/24/12 3:20 P

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I will try to keep this simple. Purines are naturally occurring nitrogen based substances that are contained in the DNA and RNA of all cells and thus are in all foods but are concentrated in protein. Everything has purines in it. When cells die the purines are broken down into uric acid. The purines of animal proteins seem to work differenly than plant purines and they cause the problems which can lead to gout. The problem occurs when the kidneys for some reason are unable to keep up with filtering the uric acid out. It stagnates in the body and forms crystals which cause gout which is a form of arthritis.

Purines would still have to be involved in some way because if sugar were the causative agent then gout would occur in the presence of high amounts of sugar and absence of animal protein and it doesn't.

-American consumers have no problem with carcinogens, but they will not purchase any product, including floor wax, that has fat in it. - Dave Barry
-My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four; unless there are three other people. - Orson Welles
-The food here is terrible, and the portions are too small. - Woody Allen

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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/24/12 11:26 A

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What if we eat too much sugar, but the extra protein that a lot of gout sufferers eat, I love meat, is turned into glucose? Purines are a byproduct of proteins, right? If so, then it is just a coincidence that purines are in those foods. It may be that the protein itself is the problem, because in large quantites, it drives up blood sugars, the way gravy, pop, cheese, beans, and alcohol do.

Maybe I''m stretching the theory a bit..?? emoticon Oh well! whatever I'm doing is working, and I am interested to see how long. I just got below 220, so I am sure the weight loss is helping also.

Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 4/24/2012 (14:16)
"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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-LINDA_S's Photo -LINDA_S Posts: 4,156
4/23/12 6:37 P

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Well at least it's good for something! I've heard honey, especially Manuka, has great healing properties, too.

Linda

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead


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MORTICIAADDAMS's Photo MORTICIAADDAMS Posts: 65,997
4/23/12 4:22 P

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I have found one good use for sugar. It helps decubitus heal quicker.

-American consumers have no problem with carcinogens, but they will not purchase any product, including floor wax, that has fat in it. - Dave Barry
-My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four; unless there are three other people. - Orson Welles
-The food here is terrible, and the portions are too small. - Woody Allen

Co-Leader "Smart Carbing"
Co-Leader "Low Carb For Dummies"
Co-Leader "South Beach Diet"


 
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-LINDA_S's Photo -LINDA_S Posts: 4,156
4/23/12 3:24 P

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I wish you luck in figuring out the causes. Sugar, of course, is good for pretty much nothing, so avoiding it is always a good idea.

Linda

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead


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MORTICIAADDAMS's Photo MORTICIAADDAMS Posts: 65,997
4/23/12 12:57 P

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I think I may finally know what you mean now. Gout attacks have been linked to high fructose consumption and it is contained in most soft drinks. It is also in apples and oranges and there is an increased link with consumption of them plus orange juice and fruit juices. Purines are still a problem but not the only source. Excess sugar is obviously a problem.

-American consumers have no problem with carcinogens, but they will not purchase any product, including floor wax, that has fat in it. - Dave Barry
-My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four; unless there are three other people. - Orson Welles
-The food here is terrible, and the portions are too small. - Woody Allen

Co-Leader "Smart Carbing"
Co-Leader "Low Carb For Dummies"
Co-Leader "South Beach Diet"


 
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JERSYGRL's Photo JERSYGRL Posts: 844
4/23/12 6:47 A

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Was just thinking that I too had a number of medical problems that went away as I stopped my bs spikes. The miraculously reappear after a while if I go back to my old ways. One problem is back aches. Was at the chiropractor twice a week. Now I haven't had to go in months.

“You can often change your circumstances by changing your attitude.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
"Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday."
John Wayne
"A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes."
Mahatma Gandhi

Carol


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/23/12 1:31 A

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My thinking is that it is not one food, but high blood sugar that is bringing on my attacks. Whether that is caused by drinking a pop, or having a lot of meat, or cheese wouldn't matter then. The cause was whatever spiked you blood sugar.

I personally have figured out what works for me. I am not in need of finding anything out. I am merely discussing the why. As long as I eat low carb I don't have any attacks.

It could be that I limit my intake of protein to 130 g, and my carbs to 40.. Maybe if I ate 170 g of protein, it would trigger an attack. I just think that if eating low carb can reduce or eliminate gout attacks, it probably is not the diet as a whole, but one aspect of it. I doubt anyone is going to prescribe low carb for gout sufferers, but an idea like eating low glycemic foods might be considered.

I keep hearing about what might work, or what does work, and when people find something that works, they just follow it. Makes sense, the pain is gone. I am just asking why?

I don't need help finding out what works.. I know what works for me. I need help with why it works. Like I said.. it is purely a mental exercise. I was hoping for some thoughts on the topic is all.

Many people may have gout with no high blood sugars , and they wouldn't fit into this scenario. Then again maybe they do have high blood sugar, and just don't know.

In my case, I can avoid purine rich foods, and by drinking pop bring on an attack.. so if purines are the cause, how did I have an attack? Shouldn't I be able to eat as much low-purine foods as I can without any attacks?

The other area of thought I have is if being diabetic is one cause of gout. Maybe my theory applies to 1/2 the gout people, and there are other causes. Since I take diuretics that is a cause. However it is likely that someone with diabetes would have heart issues, and therefore be on diuretics, so maybe it is just a coincidence?

In my personal case.. I found out I had CHF, then diabetes, and took diuretics/other meds. I have always eaten lots of meats. When I started low carb, I really just replaced carbs with fats. What if gout is just step 5 in the process? I admit I am sort of hoping there is some aspect of truth here, which is why I am asking for your thoughts.

I would love to think if I ate low carb, I could limit of eliminate gout, like I have diabetes. My thought is... If they are all related to high carb, high blood sugar causing obesity, and these all stem from that, lower carb diets could prevent a lot of these diseases. I think it is all a string of events stemming from one disease, not a bunch of different diseases.. I am mostly just wondering if gout is included. There are a lot of people who believe diabetes, obesity, and heart problems are related.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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MORTICIAADDAMS's Photo MORTICIAADDAMS Posts: 65,997
4/22/12 11:03 P

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A low of my medical problems improved when I went low carb. Maybe you eliminated a trigger.

-American consumers have no problem with carcinogens, but they will not purchase any product, including floor wax, that has fat in it. - Dave Barry
-My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four; unless there are three other people. - Orson Welles
-The food here is terrible, and the portions are too small. - Woody Allen

Co-Leader "Smart Carbing"
Co-Leader "Low Carb For Dummies"
Co-Leader "South Beach Diet"


 
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JERSYGRL's Photo JERSYGRL Posts: 844
4/22/12 5:16 P

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Excellent, interesting post Russell! I think you are on the right track experimenting with food. Perhaps you might consider one food elimination at a time if you get gout again. When determining food allergies one cuts out one food. If that food is does not appear as the problem then a second food is cut out. One continues cutting out foods until the symptoms disappear. Then one food is added back into the diet at a time to see which ones are ok or not ok.

Seems that fructose is a contributing cause for you. Maybe you can slowly weed out the other food culprits contributing to the gout attacks. Good luck! Keep us informed as to your results.

Carol

“You can often change your circumstances by changing your attitude.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
"Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday."
John Wayne
"A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes."
Mahatma Gandhi

Carol


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-LINDA_S's Photo -LINDA_S Posts: 4,156
4/22/12 12:16 P

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Have you researched alternative or natural therapies? There are quite a few out there, including raw apple cider vinegar and cherry juice or capsules. ACV is good for a lot of things, diluted in water. You probably know that it's the purines in meats that are supposed to be the problem. You could cut back on those that contain them. Also check out apigenin and curcumin. Good luck!

Linda

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/22/12 11:53 A

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I am fine right now.. nothing to really figure out. I have no gout pain, or high blood sugars. I just wonder .. why? This is purely a mental exercise. I am more worried about other people, and wondering if we will ever figure out the causes of these diseases, and stop having them.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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LADYJAKE1's Photo LADYJAKE1 Posts: 1,960
4/22/12 11:36 A

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I hope you can figure things out soon....good luck Russell

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HYEGEEK SparkPoints: (74,407)
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4/22/12 9:59 A

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That sounds like a reasonable thing to test. At 75g, your still within the range of keeping enough protein in your diet (unless you happen to be a top level athlete emoticon ).

RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/22/12 9:35 A

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Yes! Great thought. I stall if my protein gets above 140 g a day. I remember that blood sugars spike from too much protein being converted to glucose.. so it would be the same as having carbs, or sugar.

Pure sugar just raises my blood sugar faster than excess meat, so maybe it is about blood sugar, that is how it ties into diabetes. A pop would spike it , but 3 lbs of chicken would too, just slower.. So it may be that sugar is bad, but so is meat in large quantities.

If this is true then limiting meat, and removing sugar would both work. Also maybe I could have cheese, or a fruit, if I cut my protein to 75 g for example.. maybe it is just eating a combo that doesn't raise the blood sugar??

If this is true, gout would be a side effect, or offshoot of diabetes.. excessive blood sugar would be the cause of both..very exciting idea

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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HYEGEEK SparkPoints: (74,407)
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4/22/12 8:45 A

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While I have never had gout, I do have a friend that has suffered from it. He did see a correlation between attacks and eating high protein. However, he did not avoid sugar. I can believe that sugar along with the high protein is a bad idea.

I have been eating lower carb for 2 1/2 years and during that time, the majority of my calories have been coming from fats. Lately, I have been trying to up my protein intake a bit since I have been putting in many miles on my bike and want to be sure my body has all it needs to repair itself. Even so, I'm probably under 150g of protein a day. Too much protein will also raise your blood sugar, it just takes a lot longer than carbs.

MOTHERUV2's Photo MOTHERUV2 Posts: 1,074
4/22/12 8:26 A

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One theme I notice running through your post is when you listen to your body, you've learned a lot about how food affects it and were more comfortable. I believe you are onto something! My body tells me sugar and carbs are not good for it, but I have a terrible time sticking to low carb. Best wishes with your journey and I will be following the responses to your post.

Karen

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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
4/22/12 7:11 A

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This is a post I shared on another board, and after all the help I recieved here last year with low blood sugar issues, I respect people's opinion here, and want your input:

I have been eating low carb for 3 years now. Atkins ( 40 g carbs total ). Last September I weighed 221, and started having ankle pain. It was diagnosed as gout, and I once again switched off low carb, cuz low carb was bad.. From October to December 31st, I ate a normal diet, and cheated a lot, as I have always done when eating carbs. I weighed 280 on New Years Eve. a gain of 59 lbs in 3 months. I think people on this board understand why I ate off plan, which was a cause of the weekly crippling attacks I had for those 3 months. Maybe eating the foods on the SAD would help relieve the gout attacks, but I just can't stick to it.

Whatever the reaon, I started questioning the causes of gout, and reading books( not very many on the subject), and looking for info on the web. I have to admit I was cynical because of my 5 years wasted eating the diabetic diet with disastrous results. I started thinking.." Since they are so wrong about diabetes, could they be wrong about gout?"

Most of the info I could see was based on the idea that rich men had the disease, so we shouldn't eat the foods rich men ate. I started thinking of what I learned from past diabetes, and low carb experimentation. Also got a nudge from Gary Taubes. I wish I could read his missing chapter on gout. Anyways, I started cutting out sugars ( pop first ). This reduced the frequency to every 2 weeks in January. Finally, after a real bad attack Feb 8th-12th.. I decided to cut out fructose too. I had no attacks for a month, till I ate an excess amount of cheese, and had a binge, and drank some pop. Not sure if it was the lactose in the cheese, or it was a trigger food, but the pop helped with the gout attack. I cut back to low carb, and drank a lot of water, and 24 hours later, gout pain was gone. None in the past month.

So with low carb, I have gotten back down to 221 in 3.5 months. Plus, my gout attacks are much less frequent. I have cut out olive oil, and fat % has dropped to low 50%'s. I do not know if any of these are the cause of me being better, or which one, or if all of them need to be followed. Maybe it is just coincidence. Same as the weekly gout attacks were a coincidence.

What I do know is that I am eating a lb of meat, including pork,and beef, Also eating mushrooms, and occaisionally beans. Time will tell, but eating foods that are supposed to trigger gout attacks , seems not to do that. Meanwhile sugar, seems to almost unerringly be a major cause in my case.

I thought when I first got gout that maybe low carb was the reason, now I am thinking it was pop.(sugar )

Maybe the reasoning behind rich men getting gout, was they ate more sugar than the average person. Now, we all eat way too much sugar. This would tie into the relationship of diabetes and gout. If both are caused by elevated blood sugars, then low carb may be the answer to both. Having been off diabetes meds for 2 years, I am willing to test the theory on gout. Sugar is bad either way, and if the meat, mushrooms, and beans cause a lot of attacks, I can always remove them too.

What do you all think?



"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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