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PERRYR's Photo PERRYR Posts: 668
6/5/12 3:54 P

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Thanks for the update!

ALL4THEMUTTS's Photo ALL4THEMUTTS SparkPoints: (29,132)
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6/5/12 3:42 P

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Well, some interesting results to remark on...

Last week, doing a 5 mile run, I actually got the alarm on the garmin that my heart rate was too low, well into the run, and not just once, but 3 or 4 times. I congratulated myself on that as I see it as positive and that my aerobic system is improving.

I did my long run (11 mile) without electronics - forgot to charge said garmin - so I am not sure how that one went; just pretty much went by feel.

Today, I did a six mile run, and as it is a month since my last MAF test, I checked the results. Sure enough, my heart rate was about right on, and my times were :30 faster on the first two miles... not such improvement on mile three and not quite sure why.

But I find that I am more jogging/running than the hackneyed dog-trot I had to do to keep in my heart rate zone, so all told the running is getting more comfortable. I have a few more months of this before I need to start adding some speed play prior to my event, so it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

So I am feeling better about this plan. ;)

Laura
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On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.
~ Aldous Huxley
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~~I shed 56.8 lbs in 2008, and 20.6 in 2009!!! Happily maintaining!!!~~
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COOPSM's Photo COOPSM Posts: 24,881
5/26/12 4:23 P

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If anyone would like to do some reading...we had a great discussion on ma HR and how to figure it out... www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/team_mes
sa
geboard_thread.asp?board=0x2189x2354R>9271
if you go to a post by WONGERCHI on 3/13/09 12:15 P it will get you to the point on figuring it out....LMK what you think

~Beth~

~Look me up on facebook
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Runners just do it - they run for the finish line even if someone else has reached it first. ~Author Unknown


ALL4THEMUTTS's Photo ALL4THEMUTTS SparkPoints: (29,132)
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5/25/12 2:35 P

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;)

So, I started up my 10 mile run today, with a positive attitude, and a "trust the plan" take.
Which worked well for about the first four miles.
I blame myself, really. I have not been sleeping well of late, so I let myself sleep in, even though I knew I had this run on the books. So I got a late start, well into the heat of the day.
Even so, very little walking in the first four miles. Then I also chose not to run the bike trails, but roads today, so there were more hills to contend with. I tried so hard not to bust heart rate, but started walking a good bit more. I figured if I couldn't bring it down within a few beeps of the garmin, then it was time to walk... but I hated to give in. But eventually I realized that I could make better time walking than trying to run in such a short hackneyed gait to get under HR. Then starting to walk made sense again, as it was taking longer, it was later and hotter, and I didn't want to waste time getting home. Even so, it took 2:39:26. My first half marathon was :30 faster!
Trust the plan, trust the plan, trust the plan.... ;)
Ok, whine over!
Because, upon analysis of the garmin data, while I walked more in the last miles, I made better times, and managed my average heart rate much better. As long as over time I am able to walk less, or travel farther, or both within the same hr range, I am willing to roll with it. I am only about 3 weeks in on this as it is.
Thanks for letting me sound this out.
Happy training everyone!

Edited by: ALL4THEMUTTS at: 5/25/2012 (14:45)
Laura
______________________________________
On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.
~ Aldous Huxley
______________________________________

~~I shed 56.8 lbs in 2008, and 20.6 in 2009!!! Happily maintaining!!!~~
My ticker represents my Maintenance range!!!
(Reset July10, 2009)


 current weight: -0.5  under
 
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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,082
5/25/12 12:08 P

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Laura, I used to think that it was 50% nutrition and 50% exercise, not really. I agree with Bob that we can be in better shape later in life, it all depends on the starting point. But our bodies need the right fuel to make into muscles, bone, tendon, skin and brain cells. High quality fat and protein are essential for this, carbs can help but are not as critical.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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ALL4THEMUTTS's Photo ALL4THEMUTTS SparkPoints: (29,132)
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5/25/12 9:09 A

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Thanks, Birgit! I am happy to hear from someone who is working it and having success with it. I have a feeling when I delve into my nutrition a bit more deeply, that will also come into play. I do know that I am having some hormone balance issues that make things a bit more interesting (and I am trying to handle them naturally, vs. chemically). This is why I was drawn to Maffetone in the first place... reducing undue stresses (training and otherwise) and building the body so that it makes it care for itself more efficiently and effectively.

And Bob - I know that! ;) I am in far better shape now, at (nearly) 50, than I ever was in my thirties. And my husband, 62, puts younger men to shame. I was mostly referring to training plateaus and such.

I will try to relax and follow my own advice. Enjoy your Journey! ;)

Laura
______________________________________
On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.
~ Aldous Huxley
______________________________________

~~I shed 56.8 lbs in 2008, and 20.6 in 2009!!! Happily maintaining!!!~~
My ticker represents my Maintenance range!!!
(Reset July10, 2009)


 current weight: -0.5  under
 
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PERRYR's Photo PERRYR Posts: 668
5/25/12 6:43 A

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Laura,

You stated "...pretty much stagnated.
Of course, I know that is a fairly natural progression. ". Please don't ever think like that. There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason that you can't be faster and in better shape when you're 70 than you are now. None. Show me any facts that support what you said... Check it out. Runners in their 70's can have the same muscle mass as runners in their 40's. Allowing yourself to decline because you got an AARP invitation is silly. They don't determine when you start to decline, you do. Nuff said.

Bob

HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,082
5/25/12 12:57 A

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Laura,
I have been training using the Maffetone method for quite a while. You can find a long history in my blog. I am still extremely slow but I only implemented part of the method for a long time. The Maffetone method as explained in Phil Maffetone's book "The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing" has three elements, one of which is training mostly at aerobic speed (about 180- age heartrate), the other elements are diet and other factors like managing stress of different kinds.
It is true that Phil Maffetone focuses on health first and performance second. I am thankful for that since I see no reason to increase my risk of a heart attack, something that is getting more common in marathon and ultra runners. Just recently a very accomplished and experienced ultra-runner, Micah True died from heart failure during a routine training run and there have been many other cases.
My progress stalled for quite a while until I adopted a much lower-carb diet and avoided foods that my body is sensitive/allergic to. For most people this could be grains and possibly dairy although there are other possibilities, too. Since I have changed my diet I am progressing very nicely.
Take a look at Mark Sisson's book "The primal Blueprint". It shares many elements with the Maffetone method but adds an explanation about what is called "chronic cardio" and it's dangers, long-distance running and other endurance activities that are done at a higher heartrate (approx. anything above 75% of max. HR, although that is not very accurate).

There is a lot more to explain, hard to put it in one post, so here is a link to Phil Maffetone's book on Amazon:

www.amazon.com/The-Book-Endurance-Tr
ai
ning-Racing/dp/1616080655/ref=sr_1_1R>?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337921579&sr=1-1


Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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COOPSM's Photo COOPSM Posts: 24,881
5/24/12 6:23 P

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I am going to follow this thread...you have peaked my interest!!

~Beth~

~Look me up on facebook
www.facebook.com/bethglair

~Follow me at www.facebook.com/bethglairfit?ref=hl

Runners just do it - they run for the finish line even if someone else has reached it first. ~Author Unknown


ALL4THEMUTTS's Photo ALL4THEMUTTS SparkPoints: (29,132)
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5/24/12 2:39 P

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LOL!
That is the theory, yes.
And come to think of it, it sorta makes sense. I made greater improvements when I was just starting out, because I was dead slow then. Then I tried to do workouts geared to improve my strength and speed, and my general cruising speed did increase, to a point. But has now pretty much stagnated.
Of course, I know that is a fairly natural progression.
But I would like my energy burning and aerobic systems to be more efficient. And this program is more or less biased toward fitness vs. performance. But if running slower reduces stress and improves me aerobically, then I tend to believe that my general performance would improve.
So I am still in the process of reading, while I test the theory during my current training. I just wondered if anyone else had had any similar experiences/impressions.
Mind you, I am not racing my 50K, I am just doing it. I would like to do it in a reasonable time, however. And not be exhausted when all is said and done. ;)
I will say, these workouts leave me feeling like I could go out and do them again... Not that I want to spend that much time out there.
Check out www.philmaffetone.com if you are curious.

Laura
______________________________________
On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.
~ Aldous Huxley
______________________________________

~~I shed 56.8 lbs in 2008, and 20.6 in 2009!!! Happily maintaining!!!~~
My ticker represents my Maintenance range!!!
(Reset July10, 2009)


 current weight: -0.5  under
 
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PERRYR's Photo PERRYR Posts: 668
5/24/12 2:10 P

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Thanks Laura.
I do not have the ability to run slow and keep heart rate low. I can't do anything slow. To me, calories burned is calories burned. If I think of it at all, it would be to measure the overall effort or "work" performed. The idea that I'd burn more fat at slower HR is silly to me. Let's just say that you walk a mile in 20 minutes and burn 100 calories, 60% of those are fat. Total fat calories burned in 20 minutes is 60. Let's run 2 miles in 20 minutes. 200 calories burned but only 40% from fat because of the increased HR. That's 80 fat calories burned in the same time. Much better aerobically and increased endorphins.
Tell me more about the program. Will I really improve faster by running slower? I'd like that a lot.
Bob

ALL4THEMUTTS's Photo ALL4THEMUTTS SparkPoints: (29,132)
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5/24/12 1:59 P

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Hi, Bob!
Actually, according to Maffetone, it is not so much that you should be working at your max (mine is somewhere around 185), but the max that you should be working at to achieve aerobic base training, burning fat instead of sugar, and operating more efficiently. Over time you are supposed to be able to produce more output at the lower heart rate. It is just hard to work that slowly, for so long, before you can see results.... sigh...

Laura
______________________________________
On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.
~ Aldous Huxley
______________________________________

~~I shed 56.8 lbs in 2008, and 20.6 in 2009!!! Happily maintaining!!!~~
My ticker represents my Maintenance range!!!
(Reset July10, 2009)


 current weight: -0.5  under
 
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PERRYR's Photo PERRYR Posts: 668
5/24/12 10:57 A

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Laura,

Looking forward to responses from others as I'm with you. I think the problem is that you used some silly thing like 220 - your age to get Max heart rate. That ruins everything. Max heart rate is just that, YOUR max. Me for example, 62 years old, even though I'm in excellent condition, would have a max of 158 bpm. Silly, silly. My max is 195. So - I suggest that you use any of the realistic methods to determine YOUR maximum, like the step test, then use the formulas for your runs.
Just FYI, I did a cross country 5K last year and averaged 184 bpm.. I'd say the formula is way off.

Bob

ALL4THEMUTTS's Photo ALL4THEMUTTS SparkPoints: (29,132)
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5/24/12 10:32 A

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Hey, all!
I have been running now for about 4 years, and have run a few half's and am currently building to a 50K for my 50th birthday! Hey, why not?!? ;)

I attended a talk recently by Dr. Mark Cucuzella from the Natural Running Center on efficient and injury free running, where he recommended the Maffetone Method and the Big Book on Endurance Training by Dr. Phil Maffetone.

I bought it, hook, line and sinker... and have been trying like hell to operate by my hrm on my training runs. I once before tried hrm training, but got disgusted and went back to running by feel. I mean, honestly.... it is recommended that my max heart rate is 130. 135 if I am in excellent condition (suppose that I am, okay?) In any case, I can bust that easy on any warmish day, with any kind of hill. I manage this better on the treadmill, largely due to the control over the environment and conditions (incline, speed, etc). It kills me to have to walk, and I am generally able to keep it down to 140-145 after a few weeks of effort.

But of course I just have ... to ... go ... so ... slow ........
and I generally get an average hr of 137 for a five mile run.
But I used to do that in 45-50 minutes, and now it is more like 1:10-1:15.
Ugh.
Building up to 31 miles is gonna take forever.

Anybody else follow any of this protocol? Please tell me it gets better. The research says it does, but right now it feels fairly discouraging. I am looking at 2:30 for a ten mile run tomorrow. Sort of saps the joy.

Comments, advice?
Thanks, gang!

Laura
______________________________________
On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.
~ Aldous Huxley
______________________________________

~~I shed 56.8 lbs in 2008, and 20.6 in 2009!!! Happily maintaining!!!~~
My ticker represents my Maintenance range!!!
(Reset July10, 2009)


 current weight: -0.5  under
 
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