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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,342
9/5/12 1:24 P

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ROSEWAND,
I agree that some low-carb folks don't distinguish carbs enough, but many count the total number of carbs they are getting. I get almost all my carbs from vegetables, dairy and nuts, none from grains or beans. That makes it very uncomplicated for me.
One fact that many people are not aware of is that some whole grains are very high on the glycemic index.
As far as protein, the reason why a lot of low-carb fans advocate moderate (no more than 1gram/pound of body weight for most people) is that excess protein is converted to sugar in the body and will raise insulin although not as much as carbs.

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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KYLAR_STERN's Photo KYLAR_STERN SparkPoints: (22,233)
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9/5/12 1:11 P

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I think what the poster below me said is as much of a resolution as we're going to get on this topic. Find what works for you, and this means trying and failing what has worked for other people. She considered high protein 70g/day whereas to me that is far to low. I double that as my base point. I'll get close to 200g when I want to go high protein. I'm getting 140g protein with only 1350 calories a day and that is just makeing everything so easy for losing this weight without any issues.

Don't think I could do it longer than a few weeks tho. I'm too much of a carb lover. Right now I'm eating 3 fruits and one serving of complex carbs a day, which many people would consider high carb, but to me its low carb.

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ROSEWAND's Photo ROSEWAND SparkPoints: (105,327)
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9/5/12 12:53 P

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As a carb lover, I offer an alternative approach. I am successfully
maintaining on a diet that emphasizes low glycemic carbs. (55%)

I eat a mostly vegetarian diet I do include dairy, eggs, and
seafood about one meal each week.

Not all carbs are alike. Low carb folks tend to ignore that
fact. I avoid the highly processed carbs with occasional
exceptions. I eat carbs with high fiber content. Much
of my protein intake is combined with these carbs, in
beans, Ezekiel Bread, oatmeal, and pasta. I do eat
on average about 70 grams of protein each day on my
diet. I have lots of energy. Feel great. Almost never
have cravings. Hardly ever hungry between meals.
I love my approach.

The key is to find what works for you.

Lost sixty pounds.
Have been in maintenance
for four years.
Goal weight 126


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,342
9/5/12 11:08 A

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I do think that with protein it is very important to not use ratios but total grams to measure.
As far as carb cycling I would expect people to have less energy on low-carb days because the body is used to burning carbs and running on sugar.
People who eat low-carb and high-fat all the time have consistently higher energy levels all the time because their insulin levels out and their blood glucose does too. All the info is in the books I linked and they are written by some of the leading researchers in the field of low-carb nutrition. emoticon

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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CCHEF1's Photo CCHEF1 SparkPoints: (3,058)
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9/5/12 10:07 A

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Good information. I also consider protein the most important macronutrient

It is interesting that ratios do seem to appear in the way humans eat when we crunch the numbers.

Enjoying the thread and reading what people do individually and how it all works for them. That is so helpful to me.

Have a great day, all!

Maintenance of a major weight loss includes now & then dealing with the regains! ~ Me

Constant Vigilance ~ Mad Eye Moody

When looking for faults, use a mirror, not a telescope. ~ Unknown Source

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TINAJANE76's Photo TINAJANE76 SparkPoints: (65,282)
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9/5/12 10:06 A

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Thanks for sharing these, Bill. They seem to all lead back to the main point of the original study you posted. This would support the idea that we've seen in practice here--that a person can be successful on both a higher or lower carb plan as long as their protein levels are up.

Edited by: TINAJANE76 at: 9/5/2012 (10:51)
My name's Tina. I lost more than 90 pounds between March 2010 and March 2012 and have been keeping if off ever since.

Central European Time (CET), Venice, Italy


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9/5/12 9:40 A

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My research so far indicates that there really isn't a magical/more effective macronutrient ratio. The most important thing is protein and keeping that intake up during hypo, iso and hyper caloric intake. So if you're cutting, you still want to keep the pro around 1g/lb/day. The ratio becomes irrelevant. I personally think ratios are a bit passe.

Of course, don't take my word for it. Here are some research items for you to consider and form your own conclusion.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048505
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19278045
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500966
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495538
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299116
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18379214
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21239090
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16046715
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1138279

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9/5/12 9:21 A

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I'd also be interested in hearing about different research and recommendations for carb/fat/protein ratios in relation to an exercise program that focuses more heavily on strength vs. endurance training. I do some endurance training for the cardiovascular benefits but the majority of my cardio consists of interval training. My strength training includes reasonably heavy lifting. That could be why I do better with a more carb-heavy meal plan but I don't have any evidence beyond the anecdotal to back that up.

My name's Tina. I lost more than 90 pounds between March 2010 and March 2012 and have been keeping if off ever since.

Central European Time (CET), Venice, Italy


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KYLAR_STERN's Photo KYLAR_STERN SparkPoints: (22,233)
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9/5/12 8:55 A

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Good news for me then haha. Everyone says go low carb with high fat and high protein. I need the high protein, and if my carbs carbs go below 100 I have no energy. I feel great eating 200 a day, but that isn't the best for losing the weight. With restricted calories I cut the fat back as I don't really enjoy eating them (except peanut butter. freaking love peanut butter)

Right now I've got a couple more pounds to lose to make weight and I'm aiming for 1350 calories with 40% protein, 35-40% carbs, and 20% fat. I have to force myself to eat the fats I do, unless I work peanut butter into the day :) So far working great for staying full and keeping energy levels up while the weight is just melting off.

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CELIAMINER's Photo CELIAMINER SparkPoints: (167,015)
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9/5/12 8:30 A

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Yes, Bill, thanks for sharing the study, and all, thanks for sharing what works for you individually. Like Mobycarp and others, I feel satisfied longer with more protein, and I rarely miss my protein target. However, I don't stress over other things and just go for a balance. As a result, I rarely bust my carb range on the low side or my fat range on the high side. I have the most trouble getting enough fiber.

Celia
Maintaining since May 19, 2012


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TINAJANE76's Photo TINAJANE76 SparkPoints: (65,282)
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9/5/12 7:29 A

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Thanks for sharing the study, Bill, and sorry for dragging out the personal discussion. I know you didn't intend for the conversation to go this way but I think it's a good thing for us to share our positive and negative experiences with various meal plans. That way, people who are considering a particular plan can see some of the pros and cons from an anecdotal point of view and make a decision based on their preferences, health and doctor's advice along with any research that's been conducted on the subject. I also appreciate the different perspectives offered here by people who've had different experiences on low carb plans. I don't think there's only one way we can or should be eating because weight loss and maintenance have a huge psychological component in addition to the physical. In my opinion, how we structure our meal plans ideally needs to address both of these areas.

To share a bit more of my personal experiences of going lower carb, I carb-cycled for a month using a similar program to what NANCYANNE described--about 80 grams on lower days and under 150 on higher days. My protein was moderate to high as was my fat intake. Not only was I quite unpleasant to be around and had a hard time with my mental focus on the lower carb days, but I also had a very hard time keeping up with my workouts. I was dragging myself through my lower carb days just hoping I could make it through to the next days where I could have some oatmeal for breakfast. It didn't get any better after four weeks. It wasn't a nice experience for someone with a history of binge eating and isn't something I'd like to repeat. I know a lot of people function quite well, both athletically and mentally, on a lower carb/moderate protein/higher fat plan, but I'm unfortunately not one of them. I function much better on a moderate-to-high protein (at least 90g/day), moderate fat, moderate carb plan. That keeps my body and mind fueled and provides the most eating satisfaction.

My family doctor specializes in nutrition and we talked regularly about my diet and exercise routines as I was losing weight and continue to now that I'm maintaining. She's happy with the general way that I've structured my meals and how it's allowed me to be successful so far. I'm happy, in good health and I trust her judgment so those are the most important things in my book.

I know that six months on maintenance doesn't seem like a lot to many people, but it's a huge accomplishment for me. I've never been able to keep weight off for any period of time in the past and am finally succeeding where my past efforts have failed. I think I can attribute that to a variety of factors, one of which is most definitely finding the right balance of healthy eating and exercise in a way that I can sustain long term. For me, that means keeping the carbs.

Edited by: TINAJANE76 at: 9/5/2012 (08:26)
My name's Tina. I lost more than 90 pounds between March 2010 and March 2012 and have been keeping if off ever since.

Central European Time (CET), Venice, Italy


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BREWMASTERBILL's Photo BREWMASTERBILL SparkPoints: (31,080)
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9/5/12 7:18 A

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Wow, this turned religious quickly. I don't care what you as an individual do/say/feel, really. My point was to share research that indicates that higher protein appears to be more beneficial in weight maintenance and the rest of the macros seem relatively unimportant. That's it.

Simple, Effective Strength Training for Beginners www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
urnal_individual.asp?blog_id=5425006


Current Program bb531.wordpress.com/about/

"In god we trust, all others bring data."

"You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there." - Rip


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NANCYANNE55's Photo NANCYANNE55 SparkPoints: (100,033)
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9/5/12 7:13 A

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Houndlover, 50g fat was what my coach considered high fat. I think. I could be off on that number- it may have very well been higher. It was over 2 years ago. I do know, however, that sometimes he had my carbs down around 50g. That was horrible.

Thank you for the book reference. I haven't read that one, but I have done quite a lot of studying on the subject of macro-nutrient breakdown, and know that there isn't great fear in having fats a little higher, as long as they are from good sources. However, I've never seen any recommendations to bring fats as high as you mentioned.

Regardless, I could not in good conscience take a super-high percentage of my calories from fat, even good fats. If for no other reason because it would reduce the volume of my food, since fats are so dense, and one thing I need for my sanity's sake is plenty of stuff to chew. Like someone else in the thread said, fiber is also very important for me, and it would be impossible to have a high fiber intake along with a high fat intake.

My family health history dictates the fats don't get up super high on a regular basis. I'm not willing to take chances with that just to keep my weight low, even if it did work for weight loss. But like I said, for me I don't think it would, anyhow, simply because it wouldn't be sustainable.

I've found that a 40/40/20 split (carbs/pro/fat), give or take a percentage here or there, tends to be what works best for me in both taking care of my health and nutritional needs AND keeping me satisfied.

Nancy Anne

My blog, about my personal experience and opinions of fitness related stuff: itallmakesadifference.blogspot.com/

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9/5/12 7:10 A

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I am always interested in this question of protein and carbs because I don't feel that I've quite figured out what works best for me yet. Part of my issue is that I am training for both a half-marathon and doing serious weightlifting. Most people recommend that I go higher protein for the weighlifting but higher carb to fuel all the running I'm doing.

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9/4/12 11:23 P

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I don't track on the site (use it for support and resources) so can't speak to how my own experience is with the macronutrient recommendations, but I do know that I personally favor a balanced calorie ratio of fat/carbs/protein, with the latter being the focus and most important to me. I feel better with more protein.

Maintenance of a major weight loss includes now & then dealing with the regains! ~ Me

Constant Vigilance ~ Mad Eye Moody

When looking for faults, use a mirror, not a telescope. ~ Unknown Source

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,342
9/4/12 10:56 P

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I think it's a good way of thinking to remember that produce and dairy contain a fair amount of sugar, too many people don't think of that. Thanks for the reminder. emoticon

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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4A-HEALTHY-BMI's Photo 4A-HEALTHY-BMI Posts: 6,036
9/4/12 10:32 P

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By trial and error I've found these targets work pretty well for me:

150g protein per day (minimum)
40g fiber per day (minimum)
50g fat per day (minimum)
100g sugar per day (maximum)

As long as I'm hitting those targets I tend to have fewer cravings, feel better, have more energy, and seem to make better decisions (about most things, including about food).

I eat very few starchy carbs like grains and potatoes; most of my carbs ideally come from fruits and vegetables. Dark leafy greens like kale and collard are favorites. Most of my sugars come from produce and dairy.

Edited by: 4A-HEALTHY-BMI at: 9/4/2012 (22:33)
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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,342
9/4/12 9:23 P

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NancyAnne,
I don't know anyone who does well on low-carb and low-fat and higher protein but I know lots of people who do well on very low-carb, moderate protein and high fat. My own proportions are about 70% fat, 20-25% protein and 5-10% carbs and total calories between 2000-2500 depending on how much I exercise and how hungry I am.
Have you tried to eat low-carb and high-fat? I have reached my lowest weight since I was 16 that way recently and my running performance has significantly improved.
One of the best resources I know on low-carb and how to do it right (and there are many ways to do it wrong) is the book by Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney, "The Art and Science of Low-Carbohydrate Living and the companion book that just came out this year "The Art and Science of Low-Carbohydrate Performance.


www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-Carbo
hy
drate-Living/dp/0983490708


www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-Carbo
hy
drate-Performance/dp/0983490716/ref=R>pd_sim_b_1


Birgit



Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 9/4/2012 (21:25)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MOBYCARP's Photo MOBYCARP SparkPoints: (173,458)
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9/4/12 9:13 P

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SparkPeople's nutrition tracker is kind of obscure. It picks ranges for carbs, fat, and protein based on percentages of total calories, subject to a minimum of 60g of protein. (Maybe minimums for fat and carbs, too; but protein is what I worry about.)

I learned early in the weight loss phase that I was more satisfied if I had more protein. I read in a SparkPeople article that 60g of protein was the minimum for women, while 75g was the minimum for men.

The nutrition tracker stubbornly insisted that my minimum was 60g of protein. I'm pretty sure I put the male gender in my profile.

Then I read on another site that men should have 90g minimum for moderately active and some higher number (105g? 120g?) for athletic. I fell into moderate by that site's definition, so I set my minimum protein at 90g. I generally ate more, but it worked out.

Later, as the calories came up for maintenance, I set my minimum protein to be 20% of my minimum calories. That worked, but it was a struggle to get enough protein some days. I backed off a bit and now set my minium at 120g of protein, and don't worry whether I'm actually eating 140g or 160g. I typically have between 20 and 25 percent of my calories from protein, 50 to 58 percent from carbs, and the rest from fat. Some days I get more calories from protein than fat, other days the reverse.

I could not do low carb. But I do need to get enough protein, and enough for me is considerably more than the nutrition tracker's default minimum. I think I worked it out to the nutrition tracker targeting 11% of calories from protein; that's just plain too little for an active male. I won't make a guess at how good that is for the ladies.


- Kevin

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NANCYANNE55's Photo NANCYANNE55 SparkPoints: (100,033)
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9/4/12 8:20 P

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Oh, trust me, Skirnir, it FELT serious. Scared me! But the second time I cut in and pulled a muscle and it actually left me bed ridden (and I missed a weekend away with my daughter because of it), I said "enough", and quit the super-low carb game.

That WAS my high day. These days I try to stay about 150g each carbs and pro and 35g fat. I'll go higher carb some days, though, when I am splurging or if I can feel I need to have a little more in my system. I'm pretty tuned in to what my body is telling me.

Edited by: NANCYANNE55 at: 9/4/2012 (20:20)
Nancy Anne

My blog, about my personal experience and opinions of fitness related stuff: itallmakesadifference.blogspot.com/

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9/4/12 8:18 P

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Houndlover, the days I was at 80g carbs or lower my coach had my protein at about 225g and fats at about 50g, if I remember correctly.

I also forgot to mention that I pull muscles if I lift heavy while I am low carb. I'm a mess.

Different people handle low carbs differently. In my case, it's obviously badly. I pretty much just suck at super-low carb.

Nancy Anne

My blog, about my personal experience and opinions of fitness related stuff: itallmakesadifference.blogspot.com/

My "Recipes For Bodybuilders (And People Who Just Want To Eat Healthier)" facebook page. I have videos here of my cooking yummy stuff! https://www.facebook.com/RecipesForB
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SKIRNIR's Photo SKIRNIR Posts: 5,246
9/4/12 8:11 P

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Even fuzzy long distance vision sounds serious. And wow, even your quote high day is nothing compared to me.

3/31/12 Trailbreaker half marathon 13.1 miles in 3 hours 13 minutes
4/20/13 Neighborhood Watch 5K 39:17.6
10/5/13 5K Grace Pet Fest 38:47.6
12/1/13 Secret City Half Marathon around 3 hours and 4 minutes
4/19/14 Butterflies for Hope 5K for Lupus 39:23.8 (I hurt my back a few days before, and though it was my first official 5K with some jogging, my back hurt, so was very slow.)


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9/4/12 8:09 P

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Sparks suggested limits are way below 1g a day. Whenever I log a full day of food (rarely) the tracker always scolds me. :-)

I've found I have an easier time maintaining my weight loss when my carbs aren't the majority of my calories. And for muscle gains, I do better on higher protein. As long as I'm gonna spend all that time in the gym, I may as well capitalize on it. :-)

I only went very low (cycling 80g carbs a day for several days, then a "high" day of about 130g) a couple of times for cutting diets in prep for a comp or photos. And I didn't go literally blind- it was a joke based on what I said about getting fuzzy long-range vision in my first post. :-)

Edited by: NANCYANNE55 at: 9/4/2012 (20:10)
Nancy Anne

My blog, about my personal experience and opinions of fitness related stuff: itallmakesadifference.blogspot.com/

My "Recipes For Bodybuilders (And People Who Just Want To Eat Healthier)" facebook page. I have videos here of my cooking yummy stuff! https://www.facebook.com/RecipesForB
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9/4/12 8:04 P

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Carbs are not an essential nutrient for humans because our bodyies can make them. Any negative symptoms from reducing carbs may be more of a sign that carbs are addictive, it is called the carb-flu among low-carb eaters and it typically only lasts a week or two and is related to eating too little fat and protein.
There are people groups who eat almost no carbs at all and they are very healthy.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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SKIRNIR's Photo SKIRNIR Posts: 5,246
9/4/12 7:51 P

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Not sure how that protein amount compares to the spark suggested limits as I don't think they are listed that way.

Nancy: How low carb did you have to go to be blind? And no, that can't be a good thing to go that low carb.

Myself, I try to eat good carbs, but otherwise don't limit carbs. I try to make sure I get my protein, my calcium, my fiber, fairly low sodium and stay in calorie range and that is what I mostly watch on my tracker so far. Used to be getting my fiber was difficult, but it has become much easier. Calcium, I still need my daily vitamin pill to get it, for the last little bit. Protein, I tend to only barely get, as we don't eat high protein. Since we tend to eat fairly low protein and I can't take fat (that is a trigger for my IBS), I tend to eat somewhat high carb.


3/31/12 Trailbreaker half marathon 13.1 miles in 3 hours 13 minutes
4/20/13 Neighborhood Watch 5K 39:17.6
10/5/13 5K Grace Pet Fest 38:47.6
12/1/13 Secret City Half Marathon around 3 hours and 4 minutes
4/19/14 Butterflies for Hope 5K for Lupus 39:23.8 (I hurt my back a few days before, and though it was my first official 5K with some jogging, my back hurt, so was very slow.)


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9/4/12 7:39 P

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When I go low very low carb for too long I am blind, irritable, AND I crash into/trip over things.

My daughter hates it. She'd rather live with a mom who needs a cane and is like a bull in a china store than one who is a wench.

Nancy Anne

My blog, about my personal experience and opinions of fitness related stuff: itallmakesadifference.blogspot.com/

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TINAJANE76's Photo TINAJANE76 SparkPoints: (65,282)
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9/4/12 4:36 P

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I use the same strategy. I aim for at least 1g protein/kilo (and it's often quite a bit more than that) and don't worry about the carbs and fat so much. I've experimented with lower ratios of carbs and cycling them and it doesn't work for me. I was irritable beyond belief. I'm much happier eating more carbs and happiness means I'm much likelier to stick to my plan.

My name's Tina. I lost more than 90 pounds between March 2010 and March 2012 and have been keeping if off ever since.

Central European Time (CET), Venice, Italy


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NANCYANNE55's Photo NANCYANNE55 SparkPoints: (100,033)
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9/4/12 3:48 P

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I care about carbs, because without enough I have all sorts of nasty side effects (the scariest is that my long-range vision gets very fuzzy), but I don't need to make sure I get enough because in life carbs just happen. They're everywhere!

Protein, on the other hand, I have to be careful to get enough of.

Nancy Anne

My blog, about my personal experience and opinions of fitness related stuff: itallmakesadifference.blogspot.com/

My "Recipes For Bodybuilders (And People Who Just Want To Eat Healthier)" facebook page. I have videos here of my cooking yummy stuff! https://www.facebook.com/RecipesForB
odybuilders


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BREWMASTERBILL's Photo BREWMASTERBILL SparkPoints: (31,080)
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9/4/12 3:39 P

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Interesting study I thought I would share.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22935440

CONCLUSION: Body-weight loss and weight-maintenance depends on the high-protein, but not on the 'low-carb' component of the diet, while it is unrelated to the concomitant fat-content of the diet.

For the record "high protein" for this study is ~1g/kg which is still a bit lower than what I shoot for. I don't care about carbs or fat, just aim to hit my protein number.

Simple, Effective Strength Training for Beginners www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
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