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MATHWHIZM's Photo MATHWHIZM Posts: 106
10/11/07 4:55 P

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LeChat/Beueeyed - thanks - I really didn't know there were deaths or complications to it. I looked it up and was surprised.
Yes - baptism is the replacement for circumcision. I just heard it on catholic radio today - which is funny that we're discussing it here. Others must be trying to decide too.

No one should feel pressured bu others to have it done. If it isn't right for you and your hubby then it should be a no go - he is your son after all.

Blessings!

Maura

the first thing is to utter no falsehood. The second is not to be afraid to speak the truth.


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LECHAT's Photo LECHAT Posts: 2,565
10/11/07 4:51 P

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there ya go, POLARBEAR - that's it!
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BLUEYED, this is what you're MIL needs to know and understand.

~ Loretta

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"He must increase, but I must decrease." -- John 3:30


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MATHWHIZM's Photo MATHWHIZM Posts: 106
10/11/07 4:41 P

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I'm sorry - I wasn't intending it to be a debate. I was mearly stating the medical risks and discussing the topic. I'm not apposed to someone not having it done for their son. It is a personal choice and shouldn't be taken lightly. I support you in your decision. I was just stating the reasons why we chose to have our son circumsized. If it was okay for Mary - who is my example - then it should be okay for me. I shouldn't be criticized or accused of mutilation just because we had it done.
I didn't know there were any deaths from circumcision - if I'd have known that at the time (14 years ago) I might have made a different decision.
The old testament had circumcision - the new testament introduced baptism. This is one of the reasons why catholics baptize infants. It is the beginning of the new covenant.

Edited by: MATHWHIZM at: 10/11/2007 (16:52)
the first thing is to utter no falsehood. The second is not to be afraid to speak the truth.


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LECHAT's Photo LECHAT Posts: 2,565
10/11/07 11:38 A

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to get back to the original question, circumcision is not a custom of the Catholic Church, and there's nothing in the Church about first born sons. circumcision is simply a matter of preference. when my son was born over 15 years ago, i wasn't sure what to do (i was only just 21), but i ended up having it done for him before we left the hospital because i was told by the nurses there that it was "better" and or "preferred". i haven't thought about it since.

Edited by: LECHAT at: 10/11/2007 (11:39)
~ Loretta

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"He must increase, but I must decrease." -- John 3:30


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2BLUEEYEDKIDS's Photo 2BLUEEYEDKIDS Posts: 136
10/11/07 10:13 A

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People that work in the miedical profession usually only see the patient when there is a problem - not when things are going right, so of course he will see lots of men with problems. Also research and statistics can be easily skewed to fit the nead of the researcher. When my husband and I were deciding what we wanted when our son was born we researched both angles. Men who have been cut do experience a significant loss of sensation and pleasure and there are many risks including death.
That being said - I did not intend for this to be a debate.

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MATHWHIZM's Photo MATHWHIZM Posts: 106
10/10/07 9:33 P

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Since my friend is in the medical profession he sees alot of infections where the man (adult male) has to have a circumcision. The cancer rates are proven facts as well as the AIDS (it has been studied extensively in africa).
Male circumcision (though the apostles said it wasn't necessary for salvation) didn't ever say it was wrong to do. Male circ is way different then female circ - female circ is done so that the woman will have no pleasure during intercourse. This doesn't happen for the men. Yes, I do shudder for the women who have this done to them. The custom in the Middle east is to do this when the girl is 13 or so years of age. I think it is horrific since it was never part of the covenant with God.

Circ. was a covenant act between the Hebrews and God. The apostles only said that the adult Gentiles did not have to have it done.( because this would have caused undo hardship on those men.) After all Jesus was circumcised. It is still okay to have it done - I think it is just a personal choice for your child. Either way I would support the parents' decision. Also, the church does not teach that it is wrong - rather a personal choice. It used to be the custom to have it done (for all the boys - not just first born ), but now it seems to be going the other way (not to have it done at all) Either way - it isn't a big deal. The boys don't remember it.

As an interesting note - Jewish custom said that on the eighth day it was to be done. Studies have shown that boys release a hormone for pain on the eighth day after their birth. It is the only day this hormone is ever released. I think God took that into consideration for boys for their circumcision day. Girls do not release this "pain killer" and therefore - weren't part of the circ. custom.

Blessings!

Maura

Edited by: MATHWHIZM at: 10/10/2007 (22:14)
the first thing is to utter no falsehood. The second is not to be afraid to speak the truth.


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LEFDAWG's Photo LEFDAWG Posts: 386
10/10/07 8:29 P

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I asked my husband and he has never heard of that being a "Catholic Custom". I would just ask your MIL for documental proof. The only thing I read about circumcision is that it is morally wrong to believe that you have to be circumcised to be saved. The apostle's decided that it was not needed to be done anymore in Acts of the Apostle's I think Chapter 15.

Hope that helps. My baby boy is not circumcised and I think that God would not want us to mutate our bodies anyway, unless for VERY good reason...ie. cancer/illness stuff.

"Have patience with all things, but chiefly have patience with yourself. Do not lose courage in considering your own imperfections, but instantly set about remedying them -- every day begin the task anew -” St. Francis de Sales


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2BLUEEYEDKIDS's Photo 2BLUEEYEDKIDS Posts: 136
10/10/07 6:46 P

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Polarbearfriend, IMO, all the reasons you gave to have it done are just propoganda by pro circ people. There is no benefit to having it done, it is no harder to clean than a woman, the rates of infection etc. are no different. Plus there are many benefits to leaving the boy child intact. When you hear of female circumcision do you not shudder? Why is it that we can not give our son's the same respect?

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MATHWHIZM's Photo MATHWHIZM Posts: 106
10/10/07 6:19 P

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Blueeyed - I've never heard of this custom either. - lol, whether you do it or not isn't a big deal to the church as far as I know. If anything, some of the health benefits out weigh the risk, because the rates of penile cancer drop to less than 1% for circumsized men and the rate of AIDS, and other STDs is less too.
Also, my friend is an anesthetist(sp? - yes I'm a bad speller) and he said that men get infections and then have to go through the circumcision (sp?) as adults and - wow do they wish their parents would have done it when they were babies when they wouldn't remember it. :)

Blessings!

Edited by: MATHWHIZM at: 10/10/2007 (18:24)
the first thing is to utter no falsehood. The second is not to be afraid to speak the truth.


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LECHAT's Photo LECHAT Posts: 2,565
10/10/07 2:37 P

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oh my gosh, that's heartbreaking.
i'm sorry to hear that. they do bring us a lot of joy for the short time they're here, tho! it's been ten years since Guy was put to sleep, and i still haven't been able to bring myself to get another cat. i want that one back!
:)



~ Loretta

Getting back on track at 40
"He must increase, but I must decrease." -- John 3:30


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2BLUEEYEDKIDS's Photo 2BLUEEYEDKIDS Posts: 136
10/10/07 1:20 P

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It seems odd to me that the first born would be done and not later born.

I had a big fluffy grey cat growing up, we named him chat. Le Chat was my sisters screen name for a while. He was killed by a neighbors dog 11 years ago.

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LECHAT's Photo LECHAT Posts: 2,565
10/10/07 12:09 P

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ps - there's definitely nothing about the "first born" being circumcised in the Catholic Church. i've never heard of any "first born" type customs for Catholics. that to me sounds like more of a Jewish thing. i'm consulting my mom about it ... she knows a lot more about traditional Catholic things than i do since i was born after Vatican II when they changed everything (that they're now going back to).

~ Loretta

Getting back on track at 40
"He must increase, but I must decrease." -- John 3:30


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LECHAT's Photo LECHAT Posts: 2,565
10/10/07 12:06 P

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i think you're right, BLUE EYED, it's more cultural than religious. i never though of circumcision as a "Catholic custom" and i'm a pretty devout Catholic!

right again re: "the cat" -- see Guy on my SparkPage ... today happens to be his birthday (in memory).
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~ Loretta

Getting back on track at 40
"He must increase, but I must decrease." -- John 3:30


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2BLUEEYEDKIDS's Photo 2BLUEEYEDKIDS Posts: 136
10/10/07 10:30 A

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I'm beginning to think that it may be more culteral (Acadian) than religious. Lechat, is your screen name french for "the cat"

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JAWATS Posts: 20
10/9/07 8:27 A

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I think Lechat has it about right. No real reason to do it for religious reasons, but in terms of cleanliness, etc., there is a prudential judgment to be made.

LECHAT's Photo LECHAT Posts: 2,565
10/8/07 9:46 P

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hmmm ... i would like to do some more research on this, but just since reading your post, i found this online, from Michelle Arnold, a Catholic Apologist -- two different responses to similar questions:

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If done for non-religious reasons (i.e., health, cultural), the Church has no position on the matter. It falls within the prudential judgment of the individual parents. However, the ancient teaching of the Church, from the time of the apostle Paul, is that circumcision should not be done by Christians for religious reasons because it has been superceded by baptism.

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Circumcision was established by God and practiced by God's people in obedience to him for thousands of years until it was superceded by baptism. Given that, we must assume that God would not establish a ritual for his people that can be considered deliberate mutilation and thus intrinsically immoral.

Even so, parents who object to non-therapeutic circumcision have the right to refuse to circumcise their sons as a matter of conscience. They should, however, take care not to make their arguments against circumcision in such ways that it casts aspersion on the legitimate choice of other parents to circumcise.


~ Loretta

Getting back on track at 40
"He must increase, but I must decrease." -- John 3:30


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KFM1970's Photo KFM1970 Posts: 196
10/8/07 9:40 P

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Wow, I have never heard that, either, so I'll be interested in the answers here!
I am also against circ. but my son's birthmother had him circ. at the hospital before he was ours.

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2BLUEEYEDKIDS's Photo 2BLUEEYEDKIDS Posts: 136
10/8/07 9:10 P

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OK, I have a question about something that is supposedly custom within the Catholic church, but I've never heard about it except from my MIL. She says that according to custom, the first born sons are circumcised and later born ones are not. Any one else heard of this? Or is she making it up?
I am totally opposed to circumcision as I feel God gave men a foreskin for a reason.

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