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DOREMI1's Photo DOREMI1 Posts: 2,180
7/12/11 12:41 A

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WOW! I am gong to need to spend some time here tomorrow..beautiful insights from everyone..
God bless and goodnight!

LOVE SAYS"I SACRIFICE MYSELF FOR THE GOOD OF THE OTHER PERSON."
ABORTION SAYS "I SACRIFICE THE OTHER PERSON FOR THE GOOD OF MYSELF."
priestsforlife.org


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CJBAGGINS's Photo CJBAGGINS Posts: 30,572
7/11/11 6:39 P

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Oh, the Divine Office, or Liturgy of the Hours! Okay. I understand now.
The Psalter sounded familiar.

I thought the arguments against using the Luminous Mysteries because they do not 'add up' when reciting the Liturgy of the Hours was reasonable. It sure makes sense that it would mess up the "1/3 of the Rosary", too.

However, I would love if someone else had a vision of Our Blessed Mother, and she commented on liking the 4th decade. That would be cool!

As I don't personally use the Liturgy of the Hours, I have no qualms about using the Luminous Mysteries for 'casual use'. I can certainly see why others would choose not to, to maintain the integrity of the other prayers.

cj


Edited by: CJBAGGINS at: 7/11/2011 (18:40)
God is closer to us than water is to a fish.
- St. Catherine of Sienna

Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labour in vain.
- Psalm 127:1




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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 4,313
7/11/11 3:01 P

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CJ (or anyone), what do you think about the intellectual arguments as presented in those articles (and ignoring personal attacks on Blessed JPII) against adding the Luminous Mysteries? Do they make any sense to you? Does it change how you feel about 'adding' them?


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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 4,313
7/11/11 2:02 P

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CJ, in the Catholic Church, the 'Book of Common Prayer' is more rightly called the 'Liturgy of the Hours' 'The Divine Office' or 'The Roman Breviary'... they are essentially one in the same (I edited my previous post for clarity):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the
_H
ours


"The Liturgy of the Hours or Divine Office (latin: liturgia horarum) is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited at the canonical hours by the clergy, religious orders, and laity. The Liturgy of the Hours consists primarily of psalms supplemented by hymns and readings. Together with the Mass, it constitutes the official public prayer life of the Church. Upon ordination to the Diaconate, the daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours becomes a canonical obligation. The Liturgy of the Hours also forms the basis of prayer within Christian monasticism.[1]

The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist, has formed part of the Catholic Church's public worship from the earliest times. Christians of both Eastern and Western traditions (including the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Anglican churches) celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours under various names. Within Catholicism, the Liturgy of the Hours is contained within the Roman Breviary."

...and it has always been and is absolutely STILL used in the Catholic Church daily by many (where do you think our 'pal' Henry the VIII got it, lol)... by anyone ordained/consecrated to religious life, and by many of the laity... many chapter houses invite members of their surrounding communities to join them for the 'Liturgy of the Hours', some parishes have members who meet several times a day to pray the 'Liturgy of the Hours' together, and many Catholics pray it individually at home! Wouldn't it be kind of cool if our kids and teachers prayed it at school throughout the day?

Next to the Mass, it is my favourite prayer if the Church, and nothing for me is more beautiful, especially when prayed in Community (ah... and when it is sung!!!).... though when I was living in community we younguns called it the flippin' book, because it was so hard to navigate initially (you had to flip from place to place within the book to follow the correct order), lol!

There is a resurgence in praying the Divine Office among the Laity of the Church, and there is a really user-friendly resource if you're interested - 'Magnificat'. I kept a subscription for several years (you get a monthly integrated volume... no flipping!... as well as A LOT of great information on Feast Days and the Saints), and I will return to it... right now we are subscribing to 'Magnifikid', for obvious reasons, lol... so my 'community' prayer centers on teaching and encouraging Olivia in her faith... amazing how much I, myself, grow in the process:



Another GREAT resource!
'Magificat'
www.magnificat.com/english/index.asp



Edited by: _RAMONA at: 7/11/2011 (15:04)

'An Apple A Day' keeps the doctor away...
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rint-101/#axzz28X8ooJ1H



NOTE: My weight tracker is NOT a truthful representation of my weight. Instead, I am using it as a tool to help me visualize my goal as though it's already been achieved!

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CJBAGGINS's Photo CJBAGGINS Posts: 30,572
7/11/11 1:43 P

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I so agree, Ramona!

The argument seemed sound, with the history of the Psalter and everything. It looked quite reasonable.

One question - the Book of Common Prayer I have only ever seen referred to in the Anglican Church (Church of England), of which I was once a member. Was there a time before our 'pal' Henry the VIII, that it was also used in the Catholic Church?

I especially agree with your comments on
"I have to confess... I am greatly disturbed by a certain segment of the Church Militant's tendency to paint Blessed John Paul II (the 'anti-pope')... and consequently Pope Benedict... as a villain. When the 'learned' of the Church engage in this sort of public attack on the Seat of Peter which these two articles exemplify, I think they do more harm that good. Battle it out behind the veil guys, and leave my reluctant and uneducated musings out of it. The criticisms of the Pope hurt me deeply on so many levels."

Devout Catholics, by their very definition and nature should be in communion with the Pope. If not, they are not Catholic, they are Protestants. Period. When I was Anglican, I was what some refer to as "high Church", meaning I loved the pomp and circumstance and ritual and long services and full vestments and sung liturgy, a traditional type of worship. I believed in the Real Presence, and admired and respected Mary (Our Blessed Mother) for her role as mother of our Saviour. What, then, was the difference between my faith and that of my new husband? One answer - faithfulness to the Pope and the Magisterium.

The definition of a Protestant is one who protests the teaching authority and hierarchy of the Church.

cj


Edited by: CJBAGGINS at: 7/11/2011 (13:45)
God is closer to us than water is to a fish.
- St. Catherine of Sienna

Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labour in vain.
- Psalm 127:1




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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 4,313
7/11/11 1:33 P

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So, I'm back, CJ... about those articles and the Luminous mysteries. I honestly don't feel like I know enough at this point to definitively agree, or disagree, about whether or not they should have been added... and I now have many more questions than answers on one more issue of faith. SIGH.

On the surface, based on the two articles, it doesn't sound like they really fit the traditional nature and intention of the rosary... though it also sounds like they have not so much been 'added' as they are encouraged as an enhancement to what already is... so I also think anyone who finds spiritual food in including them in their praying of the rosary should continue to do so (it's not like they aren't genuine moments in Christ's life, and rooted in Scripture)... I don't believe a sincere and prayerful heart will ever be led astray by prayer... especialy not by the rosary, or the sweet whisperings of the Holy Spirit on their heart as they pray and meditate on Mary's devotion to Jesus. The Church is pretty solid on that.

As to the specific question, it is the whole idea of the 'Lady's Psalter' that I find most compelling. The link between the Breviary, the Mass and Rosary makes sense... "the Psalter of David [which is the basis for the 'Book of Common Prayer' of the Church, 'Liturgy of the Hours' or 'Divine Office'], composed as it is of one hundred and fifty Psalms, is divided into three equal parts of fifty Psalms each. These three equal parts represent figuratively the three stages in which the faithful find themselves: the state of penance, the state of justice, the state of glory. Likewise, explains Father Anthony Fuerst, "the Rosary of Mary is divided into three parts of fifty Hail Mary's each in order to express fully the phrases of the life of the faithful: penance, justice and glory." (I really like this!)... that to add the five new mysteries may alter the nature and focus of praying the rosary:

"...two chief factors... determined St. Dominic’s determination of the 15 decades that we are familiar with. Firstly, the mysteries were given to him by Tradition, and secondly they are the objective events in our Redemption. The 15 mysteries of the Rosary as we know them are all events that took place, and which were important steps in the accomplishing of our Redemption, whether it be through the Incarnation as in the joyful mysteries, whether it be by merit and reparation as in the sorrowful mysteries, or whether it be by exemplary causality as in the glorious mysteries. All three sets of mysteries are necessary for our Redemption, and it could not have taken place otherwise. It is certainly true that most of the mysteries are in Sacred Scripture. Nevertheless, it is not for this reason that they are included in the Rosary. It is because living Catholic Tradition that passed them down through St. Dominic as the mysteries of our Redemption that need to be meditated on through the Rosary. It is consequently entirely false to call the Rosary " a compendium of the Gospel" (§19), as this Apostolic Letter claims, just as it is not according to Catholic Tradition, and consequently not Catholic, to want to add five mysteries "for the Rosary to become more fully a compendium of the Gospel (Ib.). It is consequently not surprising to note that the proposed mysteries of light are not events in our Redemption. They are simply beautiful episodes from the Gospel and words that are encouraging to us. Consequently, their insertion into the Rosary obscures the reality and the importance of the objective Redemption that the Rosary traditional portrays. Furthermore, the new mysteries are all stories from the Gospels, that Tradition has never linked in any way to the Rosary. To add further to the attack on the truly Marian aspect of the devotion of the Holy Rosary, only one of these mysteries even mentions the presence and role of Our Lady, and then only barely, the marriage feast at Cana. The Blessed Mother is in no way present in the other mysteries."

SIGH. How is the faithful, simple, average Catholic (me!) supposed to make sense of this stuff? It's when I'm confronted with these sorts of 'problems' that I find myself floundering with regard to trusting the Church. Yet I know, in skilled hands, Church doctrine (not unlike the Bible) can be manipulated to reinforce almost any 'reasonable' position; so which part of the Church am I supposed to trust?

I have to confess... I am greatly disturbed by a certain segment of the Church Militant's tendency to paint Blessed John Paul II (the 'anti-pope')... and consequently Pope Benedict... as a villian. When the 'learned' of the Church engage in this sort of public attack on the Seat of Peter which these two articles exemplify, I think they do more harm that good. Battle it out behind the veil guys, and leave my reluctant and uneducated musings out of it. The public criticisms of the Pope by the 'learned' of the Church hurt me deeply on so many levels. Primarily, it's like being a child again, and being raised between constantly fighting parents. The temptation to, and almost necessity of taking things into my own hands is great, yet as the 'child', I'm not really up to the task... and it hampers my growth in faith and puts a strain on my faithfulness... and I don't know what to do with that except to pray.

In general, I strongly believe that anything which pits 'the faithful' against the Pope and his priests, lay against clergy, Order against Order, is at best misplaced and would be best avoided. I'm learning to take a wide path around these things. There is such a fine line between healthy questioning (should lead one deeper into the mystery and beauty of the Church) and destructive challenging (creates cracks and doubts vulnerable to the Father of Lies).

There you have it, CJ... likely so many more words than you expected to a simple question... and so much more disquiet in my heart with which to do battle. Here's to prayerfully battling on!

{{{{{{{{{{ HUGS }}}}}}}}}}
Ramona

Edited by: _RAMONA at: 7/11/2011 (14:22)

'An Apple A Day' keeps the doctor away...
www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-bluep
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NOTE: My weight tracker is NOT a truthful representation of my weight. Instead, I am using it as a tool to help me visualize my goal as though it's already been achieved!

www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
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SGWAISTMGMT's Photo SGWAISTMGMT SparkPoints: (5,638)
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7/11/11 12:55 P

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I love contemplating on all the mysteries of the rosary, but particularly on the Luminous , or mysteries of light. REvelation of Pope John Paul II the Great! some people object, but I can't really see how they should. The mysteries of Christ's public ministry are so beautiful and the contemplations drawn from them are bringing many closer to Him.

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BELLACUDDLES's Photo BELLACUDDLES Posts: 21,361
7/11/11 12:13 P

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Great links..thanks so much!!! God bless all of you!

Barbara .....that's what my friends call me! Never cared for the name Barb.

Make it a blessed and healthy day! IT IS YOUR CHOICE!

Remember how special you are and how you are soooooo worth it to be healthy and fit!!

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the assurance of things unseen. Hebrews 11:1

Leader of Christian Inspirations for Healthy Living



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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 4,313
7/11/11 1:49 A

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WOW! I LOVED 'What Catholics Should Know' so much I'm putting the link here! It's a Catechism in itself!!! I'm going to study it and consider how I can use it to do Catechesis with Olivia (and for myself, lol).


'What Catholics Should Know'
www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#4


...I'll read the articles tomorrow (I do like that the maker of the list explains their reasoning). At first glance, and never realizing that there is a relationship between the rosary and the Breviary's Psalms, I'm intrigued.

Thanks again, OURMAMAM for the original blog link!


Edited by: _RAMONA at: 7/11/2011 (13:35)

'An Apple A Day' keeps the doctor away...
www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-bluep
rint-101/#axzz28X8ooJ1H



NOTE: My weight tracker is NOT a truthful representation of my weight. Instead, I am using it as a tool to help me visualize my goal as though it's already been achieved!

www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
urnal_individual.asp?blog_id=2108522


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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 4,313
7/11/11 1:37 A

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Yes, CJ, it is a take on Gordon Neufeld's book. It's a book I really prize... I worry about the issue of attachment with Olivia (it's been an interesting dance since she started school... being an only child, coupled with her personality, I see her as particularly vulnerable in this area), and I see the lack of attachment in so many families as exactly the problem in their kids' lives. Peer attachment is no substitute for parents... we've lost a niece to this issue... terrible to watch. The other book resources on the blog look really great, too.

I'll get back to you once I've read the article and checked out that list!


'An Apple A Day' keeps the doctor away...
www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-bluep
rint-101/#axzz28X8ooJ1H



NOTE: My weight tracker is NOT a truthful representation of my weight. Instead, I am using it as a tool to help me visualize my goal as though it's already been achieved!

www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
urnal_individual.asp?blog_id=2108522


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CJBAGGINS's Photo CJBAGGINS Posts: 30,572
7/11/11 12:43 A

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Thank you for the information, ladies!

What a lot of great stuff included in those links!

Ramona - is "hold onto your Catholic kids" a take off on 'Hold on to Your Kids' by Neufeld?

The first link I clicked on on the Secular Franciscan E journal was one about lists of things that Catholics should know about. That was interesting and worth looking at!

The only thing I didn't like is an article about why they don't approve of the Luminous Mysteries, and why they should not have been added. I rather like those mysteries, so I disagree. What do you all think?

cj





God is closer to us than water is to a fish.
- St. Catherine of Sienna

Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labour in vain.
- Psalm 127:1




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TELLITFORWARD SparkPoints: (10,826)
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7/11/11 12:12 A

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Thanks for the link. And, to you too, Ramona. What a great team this is!
Kate

"It is only with the heart that one sees rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
Antoine de Saint Exupery: The Little Prince


"To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world."
Heather Cortez
LESLIEJEAN43's Photo LESLIEJEAN43 Posts: 26,357
7/10/11 3:22 P

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What a great site---thanks!
Leslie

"Any idiot can face a crisis. It's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
---Anton Chekhov



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SNOWYOWL56's Photo SNOWYOWL56 Posts: 574
7/10/11 6:37 A

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I really enjoyed reading from this biog, I too recommend this site to our team. Thanks for sharing.

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_RAMONA's Photo _RAMONA Posts: 4,313
7/9/11 9:21 P

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THANKS! I'm always looking for good Catholic resources!

Here's a few back at you:

'Faith & Family'
www.faithandfamilylive.com/

The Dating Divas (Catholic Women Stregthening Marriage)
www.thedatingdivas.com/

Hold On To Your Catholic Kids (great resource no matter how old you kids are, even if they have kids of their own)
holdontoyourcatholickids.blogspot.co
m/
2011_06_01_archive.html


Edited by: _RAMONA at: 7/9/2011 (21:29)

'An Apple A Day' keeps the doctor away...
www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-bluep
rint-101/#axzz28X8ooJ1H



NOTE: My weight tracker is NOT a truthful representation of my weight. Instead, I am using it as a tool to help me visualize my goal as though it's already been achieved!

www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
urnal_individual.asp?blog_id=2108522


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DEE107's Photo DEE107 SparkPoints: (351,290)
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7/9/11 8:28 P
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thank you so much for the info

DEE Southern New Jersey
CARETAKER'S OF OUR LOVE ONE'S
SP Class of Oct 12-18 2008.
Losing Weight & Disabled
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God is Good all the time. All the time GOD is good.

Let your life be like Angel Food Cake...sweet and Light---




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MARVEEME's Photo MARVEEME Posts: 6,047
7/9/11 8:15 P

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In addition to this being a very Catholic blog spot, about 1/4 of the way down on the right side of the page is a PLETHORA of Catholic web sites that you can click on and bookmark for your own reference. AWESOME stuff!

secularfranciscan.blogspot.com/?zx=4
55
f634505dbbfa8


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