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CARLI_MAE's Photo CARLI_MAE SparkPoints: (54,703)
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7/22/10 11:04 P

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That's ok, Bob ... neither can anybody else, except our one member living in Denmark! Sometimes we bump into each other while I'm burning the mid-morning oil and she's finishing off her breakfast ... hahahaha ... tonight I'm hitting the sack early, I hope ... have mowing and stuff to do, if it doesn't rain and I don't wipe out from the heat.

♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/22/10 9:19 P

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Carli,

I don't think I can keep up with the hours you keep.

I spent the day (HOT!) at the Regional Fast-Pitch Softball World Series, cheering on my granddaughter.

It's a double elimination and they are currently 4-0.
Staying in the Winner's bracket means you only have to play one game a day, dropping into the loser's bracket means you play two games/day.

A little slow this evening, but I'll go dig at what there is available.

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7/22/10 3:43 A

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Just taking a look back at your last reply. So we're agreed on hunting & partly on guns.

You're much more moderate on the abortion issue than most conservatives. From way back when it first began coming to the forefront of politics, my argument to those who oppose it on moral, religious, or plain old anti-feminist sentiment has been:

1) There's a good reason the founders said "Congress shall make no law establishing religion or prohibiting the practice thereof" (paraphrase, but I think that's pretty close) -- it keeps us from having either the State or other people from dictating to us what is moral, immoral, etc., and leaves the decision about what we do with our bodies to us, as well as the consequences; and
2) if we legislate against abortion, we are taking freedom of choice away from women; whereas if we allow it to be legal, no freedoms are destroyed;
3) in terms of where we are now, even in States with the most liberal abortion laws, more and more teens and young women are choosing to give birth to children, married or not; we certainly don't want to go back to the days when only the wealthy could afford to travel abroad to have an abortion while the lower & middle classes took chances with barbaric back alley procedures ... and no, I've had friends who've had abortions, and believe me, I don't know any woman who looks at it as just another form of contraception -- these women, even if they were absolutely adamant about not wanting a child, all suffered emotional consequences. Also, we live in a world today where many of the old stigmas, lack of support, etc., attached to unwed mothers have been pretty much put aside.

When I was in college, and several years after, I volunteered with Planned Parenthood, and so many people have such distorted views of what goes on there and in other clinics. I can tell you from my own personal experience that we never tried to influence anyone's decision. Much of what we did was education -- it was astounding to me how many of the impoverished who came in back then had no idea how and why they kept having one child after another! We always showed women all the options available to them, even if they walked in asking for "the pill."

Still much to catch up on here ... but I'm at least keeping up with Bob! Hey, does anybody know what happened to the guys? Where's Foley & PirateDave?

♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/22/10 2:49 A

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Okay, I'm back after a long day to post what I found out about the abortion funding under the new healthcare act. Looks like more of a conservative political hoo-hah over what will end up being nothing other than voter confusion ...

Bob, I believe the article at CNSNews is misleading. Here's why:

According to the CNSnews article, it appears that like my own State, MD & PA each have their SHIPs (State Health Ins. Plans) -- which generally supplement other health insurance for low income people, Medicare/Medicare Plus plans, and, I anticipate any plan entered into via the newly created exchanges set up by the
Affordable HC Act. Each state's SHIP coverage is different, paid for and & governed by the State, not Federal funds.

I confirmed my suspicions by doing a separate search, & found that MD State Law allows abortion and the State funds abortions for low-income women under certain specific conditions. I located information both at findlaw.com and at this site which provides guidance for women on a state by state basis

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-a
ction-center/in_your_state/who-decides
/state-profiles/maryland.html (additional link to the following info under the heading "Low Income Women's Access to Abortion"

"Maryland allows women eligible for state medical assistance for general health care to obtain public funds for abortion: (1) continuation of the pregnancy is likely to result in the woman's death; (2) the woman is a victim of rape, incest, or a sexual offense reported to a law enforcement, public health, or social agency; (3) the fetus is affected by a genetic defect or serious deformity or abnormality; (4) abortion is medically necessary because there is substantial risk that continuation of the pregnancy could have a serious and adverse effect on the woman's present or future physical health; or (5) continuation of the pregnancy is creating a serious effect on the woman's mental health and if carried to term there is substantial risk of serious or long lasting effect on the woman's future mental health. Md. Regs. Code tit. 10, §§ 09.02.04(G), 09.34.04(A)(5), 09.34.04(B)(2); Md. Medical Assistance Program, Physician Servs. Provider Fee Manual, p. 13 (July 1, 2007) at http://dhmh.state.md.us/mma/providerinfo/p
df/Physmanual0706.pdf."

If pro-choice States are found to be using Federal $$$ to fund these abortions, they would be subject to loss of that funding under the new HealthCare Act, so Pence is wrong to accuse Obama, Pelosi, or Congress for "breaking their promise." There are only a very limited few exceptions under the already existing Hyde Ammendment (see my previous post, edited to include some detail of that law).

I also looked for other news sources. Except for NPR, most of them were also conservative sources carrying the controversy, but I found the Wash. Times article the most complete. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/j
ul/19/abortion-returns-to-campaign-for
efront/

There's evidently concern among pro-lifers about the high risk pools (patients with cancer, kidney failure, etc. who also happen to be or end up pregnant who's life as well as the viability of a child) might lead to some procedures being covered; or the possibility that a State might use the pre-existing conditions clause to include someone wanting an abortion in the coverage. But on the opposite side of the issue, p. 2 of the article references Stupak (a Dem. pro-lifer):

"But Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan, a leading anti-abortion advocate among House Democrats, accused Republicans of shamefully using the situation as an excuse to spread "misinformation" about the administration's position.

"Mr. Stupak added that the HHS statement should ease fears that the health care law would open a flood of federal funding for abortion.

"'The president's executive order makes clear that federal funds may not be used for abortion under the Affordable Care Act - including the pre-existing condition insurance pools currently being implemented in Pennsylvania, New Mexico and other states across the country,'" he said.

"The administration's action also stirred anger with abortion rights activists, who say the new rules go too far."

g'nite/morning!
emoticon

Edited by: CARLI_MAE at: 7/24/2010 (04:41)
♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/21/10 8:51 P

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Stephanie, thank you. I haven’t used that function in so long a time I simply forgot it. Assuming the worst (isn’t that a knee jerk reaction?), I went on to severely aggravate you and smear high cholesterol egg all over my face. I really do apologize.

As to my comment on “Nazism/Anarchy", we misunderstood what each other meant. The whole thing was, “Taking our country back” is a refrain I’ve heard often in my many years, and used both by liberals and conservatives. “I” think it might mean “back from the edge of socialism” or “back from the edge of Nazism/Anarchy”. I was doing an equal opportunity reply. From the right, “back from the edge of socialism” would be heard. From the left, “back from the edge of Nazism/Anarchy” would be an answer to the question of “back from what?”

Believe what you will about infiltrators, but I’ve seen that situation with my eyes. Many of the deliberately language challenged signs that appeared were from college kids, who, I hope were simply playing a joke. Otherwise, they should return to re-take English 101 (at my school that was referred to as “Dumbbell English”. It was the class one had to take if they had weak language arts skills on the SAT).

I chose Strom Thurmond as a dig at Helen’s age. I wanted to use an example with which she should have been familiar. I was exercising a slight bit of sarcasm.

Stephanie, I am going to say this in as mannerly a way as possible. I AM NOT trying to blow smoke up your nose. You are strong, opinionated woman. I actually like that and admire you for that. You keep 63 year old guys like me up on my toes and keep my heart rate up when I have to bob and weave to make your punches miss. We’ve already shown that we disagree on certain issues, but that’s OK. Remember, I don’t expect any epiphanies turning into conversions. The strength of character you ladies have shown me would drive a weak willed “sister” or “brother” liberal completely out.

OK, so what was that stupid thing we were arguing about? Did I say it was stupid or you? Well, if it was STUPID for either of us, we must have misspoke (kidding).

I hope you don’t take this as an insult, but your “never having a humble opinion in my life” made for a really good, tension relieving chuckle. I must be getting soft in the head.

I think that Nazism is actually in another dimension from either our country’s Left or our country’s Right. Nazism is about total control from the top. It has no room for individualism in any form. “You don’t vant to quick marsch to our tune? You vill quick marsch to ze shower!” IMHO, it’s a …. I forgot a word, a political theocracy is all I can think of. As a citizen under Nazism, you disagree? You’re dead. You have a factory the State wants? The state will run it how IT wants. The right’s of a single state under the nation? There Are no rights of states, Just the nation. Nazism is a dictatorship not even close to what is wanted by any American citizen. Well, maybe some brain dead ones, somewhere.

Stephanie, thank you for the invitation. I will conditionally accept, but I won’t actual use that invitation until your other liberal team mates have had the opportunity to weigh in. Of all the things, I DO NOT want is to be responsible for dissension in your team. But on the other hand …..

---------------

Carli: Yes, my family is a responsible keeper of our Nations wild life. We never take more than our families and friends can eat. When we come upon freshly road-killed deer, we take the carcass to the Ranger station. Often some of that meat can be salvaged and sent to the underprivileged. When the big hoorah came up about switching from lead shot to steel, we were vocally in the front of that issue. Have our birds die of lead poisoning? Duh. Where will the birds for our children come from? Where will the birds for bird watchers come from? Where will the birds for the tourist come from? Shooting endangered species? Not anywhere in my vicinity you won’t. I will report it in a flash and the Ranger will not only confiscate your weapon forever, but you’ll be put on the NO HUNT list so that even after you get out of jail and paid your fine, you’ll have lost your $1,000 dollar gun and won’t be able to get a license in this state, EVER.

Shooting wolves from the air? That’s morally repulsive to me, but it used to be legal in some parts of Alaska. I’ll have to look that up. IMHO, that sort of thing isn’t “hunting”. It’s a massacre. A “kill for the thrill”.

I’ve got mixed feelings on abortion. On the one hand, I DO NOT think of abortion as another form of birth control. I don’t see where late term abortions are anything other than murder. Squashing the child’s head to first kill it – then dragging it out of the “mothers” womb. If one has to choose between the mother’s life and the baby? That gets above my pay grade. If I had a medical power-of-attorney and it was my daughter or granddaughter, I’d vote for mom, every time. But those situations don’t usually come where a mom-to-be is unconscious. She has to make that excruciatingly painful decision. If she voted for the baby, it would put a pain in my heart that might lessen with time, but it would never go away. In the case of rape or incest? It has to be the woman’s decision. No one can see into her mind or psyche and Really tell how it is affecting her, mentally, psychologically, whatever. As a friend or a family member, I’d have to accept the decision, support her and let her know I loved her even if I disagreed with the decision. I know I’m across the line as many, most conservatives think. But I have dealt, am dealing with, chemical changes in my brain and the thought of someone else having to carry that experience and then be “guilted” into questioning herself for the rest of her life is a hard one for me to just let go on by.


Now, after some dinner, I'll let my wife turn on a baseball game and I'll read and make a sound where appropriate. I have a wife that follows sports more avidly then I do. She's let me stay around for 39 years, and I still have to fight off old guys who can't believe she would rather watch a football game then go shopping. They're just jealous.

Bob

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7/21/10 7:44 P

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Bob, About checking out other people's posts on other teams.....unless you choose to be on a private team or choose to keep your own page private, any and all info, communications, blogs and rantings are open to view and interpretation by anyone else. We fondly call it "lurking".

From my point of view, it isn't a badge of honor to proclaim that you have no intention of checking out any of our posts. We are who we are. Among like thinkers, we all let our hair down.

Like Steph, I would have no reason to want to join a team of right wingers but, that doesn't mean I am never curious about what they are saying. Sometimes, it is downright fascinating. I suspect that in most cases when a person joins a team that is clearly antithetical in philosophy to their own, the purpose is not driven by finding common ground. It is less meeting of minds and more a picking of brain matter.

In your case Bob, I wonder if you are bored and seek the challenge of communing with the "dark side" to test your mettle or burnish your street cred as a wise and reasonable conservative seeking to demonstrate the co-humanity of our disparate movements.

I might offer that the methods you employ to impart information(as sage to flock)upon the participants of your conservative teams won't necessarily work here. No one will simply take your word as fact. Links and/or reference data are always appreciated. If you climb off the bandwagon and converse individually instead of "addressing" the throng it might be helpful as well.



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7/21/10 5:11 P

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Oh dear ... not hardly done ... I forgot about your response to Stephanie, but see she responded probably at the same time as I did. TTFN

♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/21/10 5:06 P

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Good grief ... we are writing a book here ... lol! Sorry about your back, Bob -- I know what those injections are like as they tried them on my mom who had spinal stenosis ... helped a little at first, then became useless. No apology necessary for being "[sic] sick" ... hahaha ... I doubt my ramblings (run-ons) are perfectly spelled or grammatical either.

I'm going to have to come back to this later to catch up, I think. Fire Dept. made the water main in front of my house break & now I've been fighting for them to come back and repave my drive & fix the lawn so I can get my car back in my garage.

Thanks for the review on the process of removing justices, Bob. I couldn't believe I'd forgotten since I did work for DePaul Law Library & also taught legal research and writing to the freshmen.

And yes, yours truly is 60 yrs. old, and now that you mention it, I do remember Hastings vaguely. Back between '86-'89 I was working 16 hr days, not including weekends, as a university librarian (tech, not ref - so no time to sit and read between patrons)and had started having to help my folks out during health problems, which didn't leave much time for anything else.

Didn't mean to imply the discussion about Kagan had to be closed, just that that was my feeling about it. There are liberals who wished Obama would have appointed an even more progressive person for the court, actually, since he may yet have an opportunity to replace Ginsburg, at which point he may not have as much "wiggle room" (?) to get what he'd like without a big fuss.

Arms ... you're right, there is no actual number distinction ... what I said was just my personal feeling for most individuals. You are obviously into hunting more than just small animals and deer. Which is another area I'm in the center about -- hunting, as long as it exempts endangered species and is done in an ethical manner is okay by me. (That is, I don't like to see folks just killing wildlife for kicks, by aerial shooting, etc. in quantities they aren't going to use or at least give to places that distribute it as food for the poor/undernourished). It can help maintain the balance of nature; and for example, deer and other wild meat is less fatty/healthier than our hormone and overfed farm animals. As far as automatic weapons go, I'll leave them for the military, police, and gang-bangers and try my best to stay out of those kinds of fights. So far, so good. If I happen to get caught in some cross-fire somewhere in the city, I'll probably be a goner before I know what hit me. Conceal and carry -- heck, even driving around with a loaded weapon is illegal here, and if you're stopped and they see it, it gets confiscated and you end up in court.

Agreed that the whole "take our country back," given the different responses I've gotten from individuals I've asked, amounts to meaningless drivel/rhetoric.

Wow, not bad ... just have to check out these funded abortions. (I am pro-choice, btw, and really don't give a rat's ass about whether abortion is federally funded or not -- but I do expect standing law to be followed or else fought against in the procedures we have available).



♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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MORRISDATTER's Photo MORRISDATTER SparkPoints: (22,956)
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7/21/10 5:02 P

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Hi Bob,
You're back. My name is Stephanie, by the way, if you want to use it.
Whoa - it's going to take awhile to read through and answer your post. There is a great deal there I disagree with.
I didn't "sneak and peak" - though you might feel that I did. I clicked on your page and went to your recent message board posts to see if you had been posting. Open to the public. I didn't "announce" myself, as I have no desire to join the conservative team and I'd have to do that in order to announce myself. No thanks. I was raised by John Birchers - and believed it all until I got out in the real world, away from only my parents' political beliefs and found a great deal I finally could believe. So I know the arguments and I know the philosophy and I know the rhetoric without having to join something that is so far from what I am.
I doubt any one of us would be offended or surprised that you don't like Helen. That is much the same as how we feel about Rush and Glen and Bill. The difference being that they put themselves forward as bearers of The Truth and Faux News puts them there. She is facetious and she is sarcastic - but hiding behind her age, she is not. She just calls them like she sees them and there are many who see it the same way - thank god.
My only comment now is your statement: "“back from the edge of Nazism/Anarchy”."
Bob, Nazism is as far right as you can get. Nazism and Fascism are not left wing philosophies. They are both far right wing. You say you don't believe them - but PLEASE don't put Obama and his progressives in either a Nazi or Fascist regime. It's painfully uninformed.
Oh - so you believe that "infiltrators" infiltrated the tea parties and carried mis-spelled signs?! That's a good one. I'm sure it was the infiltrators. Yup.
And one more thing: Strum Thurmond was a southern democrat. In those days, southern democrats were republicans in all but name. If you have to go back that far to find a democrat who was in the KKK, your argument is very weak indeed. The South was - and is for the most part sadly - the land of the KKK. And all the tea party seems to herald is racism - hidden or blatant.
I ended up in the middle of a demonstrating collection of teabaggers in DC in March - accidentally I can assure you (I was innocently shopping and crossing the street only to find myself surrounded by these wackos - and I mean wackos. I wasn't by choice or plan!) So if Helen hasn't attended one, I have. And I can tell you I heard things that boiled my blood. First hand. Not rumor. I found my way out of that group of lunatics as quickly and quietly as I could.

Are democrats and republicans as different as "the media" portrays them to be? At the core we are all Americans. But we have very different definitions of what that means - very basic, deeply held definitions. So, yes. We are, in my humble opinion, but I've never had a humble opinion in my life.

Since you are a member of this team, of course, you can read other threads! Good grief. And yes, everyone, except maybe me, is discussing politely with you to date. And yes, we do discuss differently on other threads. But it would be a lot easier to discuss the things you - and we - are bringing up if they were in different threads! So feel free.

Stephanie emoticon

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Now you all know I was researching and writing this morning.

Sparkle: Thank you for the update on President Obama's birth certificate. I haven't seen the surveillance tapes yet. I'd guess he'd have to be in Hawaii, except they don't have Kinko's there - or maybe they do with FedEx's purchase of Kinko's.

--------------

Morrisdatter: I've kept my promise about not peeking, but my guess is that y'all speak to each other differently on your other posts then you do here. The difference being that nearly everyone speaks differently among family and friends then they do when speaking in public.

Curious though. Did you sneak and peek or did you announce yourself? Should I peek here, trying to find if you communicate differently with your friends than on this thread? I don't think so. I think it would be a lie for me to do that. It's sort of what many politicians get into trouble for when they have an open mike - "What I meant was .....".

I honest-to-God believe there are questions to be answered - from President Obama's birth records to the sealing of every school record he ever had, even his writings at Harvard Law are sealed. In my opinion, those are not the actions of a man who is the President of the United States. Is he hiding something? What is he hiding? Why is he acting like there is something to hide? Why have none of the officers in the military who refused his orders ever been court-martialed? Under the rules of disclosure, what would be revealed?

No, I wasn't here when you posted. I have been here and am here now, answering questions. From here I will go on to answer other Spark mail.

You still don't know why I am here. I'm here because I want to find out if liberals and conservatives are as far apart as the media leads us to believe. I'm an American. Some disagreement is great - it makes you think. Other disagreements are just divisive. We, both liberals and conservatives, cannot let that happen to the point where we can no longer communicate. Ask Lady Irish if I co-founded DWD and helped it grow from 6 members to 600,000+ by being divisive. Did I ever lose my temper? Sure I did. Even in spite of dealing with both Major and Chronic Depression, PTSD, Anxiety and Panic Disorders and Agoraphobia, my consistent theme was understanding and Agape love. We need to get back to communicating with each other, not just throwing fits because another belief doesn't coincide with our own.

As far as Ms. Helen's comment; she could have found Bushes educational records, so many others found them with no problem. What she couldn't have found was a GED - he had a high school diploma. I imagine she was speaking facetiously.

Again, thanks for the opportunity to communicate with each other.

Bob

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7/21/10 3:20 P

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Good morning ladies,

I appreciate your taking the time to once again make me work to support my philosophy as you do yours, and I apologize for not being able to respond yesterday. I have three disintegrated discs in my lower back (L-5, L-6 and S-1) and my spinal cord is sometimes aggravated by rubbing against the bones of the spine. When that happens I have to take spinal injections to reduce the inflammation and cut down the pain - which I did yesterday (Cherry, my DW, has told me it's a similar procedure to a spinal block [epidural?]). The Big Long needle is inserted into the spine and the medicine is p u s h e d in. The pain medication also makes me a bit lethargic - and concentration is difficult.

Carli, since you are again first to reply, I’ll start with your post: I don’t think that Ms. Kagan's previous actions were so much influenced by who she worked for (why would she choose to violate Federal law as the Chancellor of such a prestigious college as Harvard). Somehow, I don’t see the Board of Regents saying to her, “We want you to get rid of all of these military scum because they, being military, are obviously not smart enough to be on campus.” Nor do I think that same board would tell her they wanted all military recruiters off campus – especially since the town of San Francisco tried the same thing and were forced to back down for the same reason, a threat to cut off Federal funds. My belief is still that she is going to be a judicial activist more than she is referee, deciding on the purely legal merits of a particular case as it relates to the Constitution and previously established American law.

But we agree to disagree and the subject of Elena Hagan is closed – if that is what I thought you were saying?

---------------

To speak to the issue of Federal Judges – the only way they can be removed is through impeachment. An accusation starts in the House and is considered to pass on to the Senate. A simple majority is required for it to move to the Senate, where the trial is held. In these Impeachment Proceedings, the VP must lead the Senate in its deliberations. A 2/3 majority is required for conviction and his/her removal from the bench.

The last Federal Judge to be convicted was Judge Walter Nixon, 11/03/1989. Previously six other Federal Justices have been impeached and one resigned. They were:
J. Alcee Hastings, 10/21/1989
J. Harry Claiborne, 10/09/1986
J. Halstead Ritter, 04/17/1936
J. George English, Resigned, 11/04/1926
J. Robert Archbald, 01/13/1913
J. West Humpfries, 06/26/1862
J. John Pickering, 03/12/1804

You sound much more knowledgeable than a 21 year old (relating back to 1989), no insult intended or implied, but you could have been young enough to really not care much about politics and impeachments of Federal Judges when Wally bit the dust. I'm certainly old enough to remember and it's not a high point in my memories.

-----------------------

On the “two instances” you asked for some kind of citation, here are the first few paragraphs of that information:

Maryland Becomes Second State to Offer Federally Funded Abortions under Obamacare by Matt Cover, Staff Writer

(CNSNews.com) - Maryland will join Pennsylvania as the second state to use federal tax dollars to pay for abortions under the new health care law signed by Obama in March, according to information released by Maryland’s State Health Insurance Plan.

Maryland will receive $85 million in federal funds for its federally mandated high-risk insurance pool, which will cover abortions. As CNSNews.com reported on July 14, Pennsylvania will receive $160 million in federal funds for its high-risk insurance pool, which will also cover abortions.

During the debate over the health-care bill, Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress, saying: “Under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions.”

The day the House voted to pass that bill, Obama also signed an executive order purporting to prevent federal funding of abortions in the programs it created.

Rep. Mike Pence (R.-Ind.), the chairman of the House Republican Conference, said that the fact that Maryland will now use federal dollars to fund abortions under a program mandated by the health-care law signed by Obama represents a “broken promise”.

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“Taking our country back” is a refrain I’ve heard often in my many years, and used both by liberals and conservatives. “I” think it might mean “back from the edge of socialism” or “back from the edge of Nazism/Anarchy”. Actually, the "back from" favor most is, back from whichever party is now in power because they don’t believe the way I do. Really, IMHO, it’s meaningless rhetoric. I find Christian and Taliban to be an oxymoron. The Bible focuses on love and the Koran says nothing about love. In Islam, none of the many names they have for God is love - or anything close.

I think snarky is OK. Just as long as it’s a well thought our snarky and not something that is simply mean spirited (I confess to having an oddball sense of humor – that was just a joke. I find "snarky" to often times give me a laugh).

How many weapons separate a hunter from a militia member? I don’t think there is such a recognized difference. I have both a .38 Detectives Special with speed loaders and a .45. The first clip for the .45 is loaded light, so as to not go through five walls and a tree and injure an innocent person, IN THE EVENT that I don’t hit my target. I also have a single shot .22 for varmint hunting, a 300 Weatherby for hunting deer and antelope and a Weatherby .50 Nitro Express for Meese and bigger – and bear. Finally, I have a black powder replica Flintlock for a Special Deer season my state has – we have deer herds estimated to be 4 times larger than the 1700-1800’s because so many of their natural predators have been chased out. Missouri saw a black bear inside the state for the first time in almost 100 years, three years ago. We were finally able to place four mated wolf pairs last year – they’d been gone since the late 1800’s. I have two shotguns, my relatively new one with which I hunt Turkey, and sometimes rabbit, and my original– which I haven’t shot in years and will probably give to my grandson when he’s old enough to stand behind a 12 gauge.

If by militia you mean those wacked out conspiracy folks, sometimes survivalist, anti-anything government types, well, they give real gun owners a bad name.

If by militia you mean a state or county Militia, duly authorized and regulated, they usually have fewer guns then my family because they don’t have the time to hunt and enjoy the outdoors because of their training. And the meaning in the Constitution is pretty clear to me based on the timing. The militia are meant to be armed as well as the government (The Brits had rifles, we had rifles. The Brits had cannon, we had cannon.)

No automatics? In quite a few neighborhoods in Kansas City, without an automatic you are simply outgunned. The police and the bad guys have the majority of automatics. To legally have automatics or semi-automatics you have to have a collector’s license and go through a Background Check by the FBI that is very similar to the checks that are given to government folks before they get a Secret Clearance. My youngest son is a collector and so is my brother.

I went back to re-read an earlier post and saw where you thought I was sick [sic]. When typing, keyboarding, my brain will be composing many sentences ahead and my automatic pilot fingers hear than and type then. I sincerely apologize.

----------------

Morrisdatter: I’d like to try and modify your thoughts that guns “give a false sense of security” and “violence begets violence”.

IMHO, those whom a gun gives a false sense of security should never own a gun in the first place. If they haven’t thought they will use it and what the consequences will be when they use it, they are “butterfly’s”. Someone to whom a gun is a status symbol – those types of people are more likely to have their own weapon turned on them then not. Like many card carrying NRA members, training, hours of training and continued training over the course of years is the only way we can eliminate the majority of gun “accidents” (it’s not really a gun accident, it’s a people accident – their IQ’s tend to be only slightly higher than the caliber of bullet they use). In my mind, there is no shadow of doubt. A long time ago, before I was married, I was in the Army as an officer and in a combat situation. I had thought it out completely what would happen if I had to use my weapon. A human would die other than myself and any of my men (boys, actually). It didn’t make me brave. It made me pragmatic and slightly queasy to my stomach. But my government, the Congressmen and the Senators and the President had given me a job to do. I did what I had to do, and unlike Senator Kerry, I didn’t violate any of the terms of the Geneva Convention like he confessed he did.

Studies have been done with violent offence prisoners about what would be the biggest deterrent to breaking into a home or to stop a “Home Invasion”. Their answer was a Big, NASTY Dog. The why was they could almost always talk the homeowner, even if (s)he had a gun, into letting them leave or making a mistake that gave the criminal the homeowners gun. However, they could never predict if the dog would go for the criminal’s throat – or when. The lesson learned for gun owners is that you should act like a dog. Be DEAD serious and don't hesitate to shoot.

Some states have funky rules like you can only shoot illegal entrants as they are coming through a window or door, so actions in particular states would have to be adjusted accordingly.

That’s why I taught my children and oldest granddaughter (my youngest grand kids are 3 months and 2 years 9 months, their life training is yet to come) if they find themselves in that situation and the burglar doesn’t have a gun, they should always watch the belt buckle. People can be faked out with a move of the head and eyes. They can be deceived by a shoulder fake. But when that belt buckle moves that’s where the attack will come from. A hip fake can only be accomplished by one of the highest trained football running backs in existence at any given time. Try going in some direction without moving your belly button.

My granddaughter started hunting with us when she was eight, but she didn't get a deer rifle til she was 10. Her first season she harvested an eight point buck. She's got her deer every year and this year will be her fourth hunting season. We didn't get her a shotgun until she was 12 because the kick was too much for her to handle. Last year she went turkey hunting with us and harvested her first beard - gobbler, as opposed to a hen.

I will agree that your premise is partially true that “violence begets violence”. The other half of that equation is “violence ends violence”. My experience in the Army, combined with my Dad’s experience in two wars and as a Police Officer in Los Angeles, combined with my youngest son’s experience as a Police Officer with the Kansas City, MO Police Department, all showed that the judicious, trained use of violence stopped violence on the spot, and prevented later violence through capture, internment or death.

No one has yet to come up with a way to modify the behavior of an individual who is willing to operate outside of societies norms. Until that time comes, we all should do our best to protect ourselves and each other.

In your second post, I think I found where someone has been getting to both we conservatives and you liberals and driving us apart for unknown reasons. How much oil? One drop is too much. If you want to find out what I think about the gulf oil disaster, you can go to my Spark Page and look up a blog of mine – I think I titled it “My Affair”. It’s not an affair in the usual sense. It will give you an example of how I think of our oceans – and by extension our whole planet. Wind, solar, hydro-electric, earth contact, heat pumps – I think all of these different things should be used. If we put all of our office buildings and manufacturing facilities, etc., underground, we’d have a lot more plains and forests to enjoy. I think something like this would go a long way to making us humans so much less contentious.

The following is almost guaranteed to shock, or at least surprise y’all. There are those, including many scientists, who look at the design of a single animal and say, “What are the odds that that particular animal started because of a lightning strike in some primordial ooze and then had the effrontery to continue to have consecutive random events to make this animal what it is today. The odds are incalculable.” The odds that every single race of humans on the face of the earth are fertile with each other and their children are fertile, flies in the face of logic. A horse and a donkey are cross fertile, but the mule offspring is not. The theory of evolution would/could logically conclude that humans native to Australia would evolve away from a European, African or Asiatic norm. It didn’t happen. Darwin’s Theory, and remember we are talking about two theories here, and the Creation Theory are NOT mutually exclusive to me. If Darwin’s Theory was correct, we should be able to find a series of skeletons or portions of skeletons that reach from homo-sapiens completely back to the branching point from monkeys/gorillas, etc. We’ve been looking long and hard and it hasn’t happened yet, so Mr. Darwin’s Theory remains just that – a theory.

I’m throwing this out to you as ….. as “Bob’s United Theory”. Please have an open mind.

Mr. Darwin’s Theory and the Theory of Creation are not mutually exclusive. One more time, Mr. Darwin’s Theory and the Theory of Creation are not mutually exclusive.

I am a Christian. To go one step farther, I believe that God gave us a head and a brain and intended us to use them. Looking in the Bible, it says that “God’s time is not man’s time”. OK. Mr. Einstein helped us out with that when he spoke to us of his Theory of Relativity. A “day” in God’s time thus could be eons in “mans time”, long multiples of centuries in fact. Combining the two theories would answer both questions. Horses were dinky little things that grew to become an animal that was easily domesticated and helped man in his hunting and gathering days. Saber-tooth devolved to the tigers of today (less than half the size of old man Saber-tooth) and other smaller cats. Mr. Darwin’s theory would put Saber-tooth at the very top of the Cat family. He was bigger, he was faster and he would eat anything that didn’t eat him first. There has been no scientific proof shown that dinosaurs evolved from snakes or horned frogs, however there has been proof that shows the reverse happened. Mr. Darwin, is deevolution and evolution happening at the same time? It seems like the only thing that has remained pretty constant is the cockroach.

All I ask you to do is just think about it. I’ve sat with scientists from the University of Missouri and the University of Kansas that allowed me to buy them a nice dinner and talk about, “What if"? Some said “Darwin”, some said “Creation”, and others just went, “Hmmm”. One told me that if my theory was published, it might not (probably would not) be respected, but that it couldn’t be disproved. According to him, "scientist's are a vicious lot when someone outside academia comes along with a theory that doesn't fit neatly into their scheme".

Wars. General, then President Eisenhower warned us about the “Military/Industrial Complex” in the 1950’s. Halliburton was founded in 1919, after WWI. I know it’s difficult to believe, but Cheney was founded after that. Halliburton is the world’s largest oil services company. It will do what it's stockholders want it to do in almost any circumstance – it will make money – Big money. Unless some company gets strong enough to challenge Halliburton, they will be able to underbid anyone else in any administration. Cheney? He now has a pump to enable blood to continue to flow through his veins. There are no Halliburton pumps that have been approved by the FDA as medical devices.

Since the year Zero, Halliburton has only been in existence 0.045% of that entire period (.00045 of the years). They couldn’t possibly be responsible for all the wars since the year Zero. Corporations don’t make wars. Men make wars happen. Politicians make wars happen. Helen may be getting a little fuzzy in her advanced years. President Roosevelt allowed us to get in WWII. President Truman allowed us to get involved in Korea, and then when the commander in the field disagreed with how to win the war, Truman fired him. Just imagine, General MacArthur disagreed with a grocer about how to conduct a war. President Kennedy let us get in a land war in Viet Nam – a country backed by China, a military no-no since before the French were stupid enough to try. President Johnson, when campaigning for President against Senator Goldwater, said he would not send any more American boys to Viet Nam. Senator Goldwater said he would send as many American military to Viet Nam as was required to WIN the war. President Johnson won the election. Then he and Secretary McNamara sent hundreds of thousands of American draftees to Viet Nam, but not to win the war. The United States has not had the political leadership since WWII with the cojones to fully commit to winning a war – and we haven’t won a war since. A “draw” is not a win. A “truce” is not a win. Does Ms. Helen know we are still officially at war with North Korea?

While there have been many insinuations that Dick Cheney personally gained from the war because he was formerly its head, not a single lawsuit was ever brought against him or Halliburton. Even with the Democrats currently “in power”, not a single Democrat or Democratic institution has filed a suit. The concept of innocent until proven guilty is often abused by all political parties and their followers. If neither the media nor anyone else could find evidence of wrong doing, shouldn’t that say something about “theory” to Helen?

Ms. Helen should read her history before jumping on the burning cross innuendo. Wasn’t Strom Thurmond a long, long time Democratic Senator? Does she know that Strom was once the Grand Kleagle (sp?) of the Klan? Good old Strom was THE Big Dog of the Klan. She didn’t know that?

From what I have observed, there are a fairly large number of “infiltrators”, non-Tea Party members, who can’t spell. Has Ms. Helen attended a Tea Party Rally in person to speak with the authority of one who has been there? My guess is, no.

Has Ms. Helen lived in Arizona? Does she know how much the Hispanic community outnumbers the White community? My Dad was born in Arizona and had many relatives there. When we visited and had a family get together, the only way you could tell the cousins apart was by catching one, no mean feat, and looking in their eyes. Chances were, if you caught one with brown eyes, he or she was at least half Hispanic, or half white. But, I have cousins who are three-quarters Hispanic and have blue or green eyes. To be absolutely sure, you had to ask who the child belonged to. Tell Ms. Helen that Bob has talked to a number of his cousins and all of them are Americans – and legal. To a one, they are furious that an illegal can come across the border and begin to collect benefits as soon as momma has a child. They’ve established an “anchor baby”. Since Illegal Dad would be deported if caught, he generally runs around doing what single guys have done for thousands of years. And momma gets benefits for her and the baby of money they could only have dreamed about – back in the old country. And she nor her husband have contributed a penny to the social security fund. No, the Arizona law is not about having a Hispanic family live next door to you; it’s about a Federal government that REFUSES to do its job. I hope Helen knows that it is illegal in the United States for a hospital to turn away a patient in need of medical help. Even though it’s illegal, some still do. The ones that don’t turn illegal’s away in Arizona are being swamped in debt. Medicare won’t pay them enough to pay for the services. School districts are caving because everything has to be printed in at least two languages. The illegal parents? Many of them would rather the children didn’t learn English; after all, THEY’RE MEXICANS! My cousins think that the law didn’t go far enough. They think volunteers should be sworn in as Reserve Deputy Sheriffs and man the border with guns to keep out the illegals if necessary. I have a 91 year old uncle in Douglas, Arizona, smack on the border. He is the family boss, El Jefe. Granny Margaret (Aunt Margaret really) was really the boss, but she passed away in 2004. All of my cousins, second cousins, thirds, etc., try to keep El Jefe’s television tuned to sports. If he chances on a regular news station he almost strokes out about “illegals”. He uses it as a curse word. Finally, why would you not want to have a Hispanic family living next door? Ever one of my female cousins, white and Hispanic, cook REAL Mexican food. I’d have it catered to Kansas City if it weren’t so expensive. Have you tried to get an authentic tamale made with massa? No one without an Hispanic family can do it.

The final answer for you and Helen. Sarah Palin, how stupid? Hoo boy. This one got to me. I’ve taken a half hour time out. I checked out Helen’s blog. Expressing my opinion only, Helen is a straight faced, mean-spirited bigot, hiding behind her age. What does she mean by stupid? How do you define stupid? Does the definition of stupid change as much as the definition of is? Did she know the meaning of is? We do know that Sarah can produce a birth certificate, not just a certificate of live birth. Does Helen know that the complete and entire school record of Sarah Palin is available for study, including her college records? Does Helen know why Barack Obama (before he was President) spent all the money he supposedly didn’t have (remember, he told us about being so poor he didn’t have the money to take a cab back home after a Party function?) to have every one of his school records, from kindergarten on, sealed? Does she know that when asked about these strange goings on that he dissembles like mad and finally says something that means the same as “Just because?” If she would set down with her computer she would find that in the entire history of the United States, not one single other President has done what President Obama has done. She doesn’t think his behavior strange? Maybe being related to two Police Officers so very closely and being, and having spent time in the Intelligence community I may just be too suspicious. I can tell you that after I got out of the service and got a civilian job, I was in a supervisory roll nearly 100% of the time. If I interviewed someone for a job and found he had his records sealed, and he didn’t give me a logical reason – I would not have hired him. Think about it on a personal basis, not a political one. A charismatic man moves into your neighborhood. All the neighborhood kids think he’s as cool as Santa Claus (you). Maybe his charisma is almost too much. You have a friend that knows a policeman, one who looks out for people. He takes Mr. Charisma’s information and tells you all his records have had a seal put on them. Would you let your children “go to the park” with him?

Sparkle: You are right. A friend of mine owns a gun shop and is a gun smith. The day after President Obama was elected started a run on guns and ammunition like he had never seen. The following Tax season, his CPA told him he had grossed more in a month and a half then he had the previous 10 months. I agree that a large number of those who were buying guns and ammunition shouldn’t have even considered it.

Thankfully, he held some stores back for his regular customers so we were able to get in the target practice we needed AND be able to get through deer season – the same was true with shotgun ammo and Turkey season. He even ran low on black powder and there are only a few of us who go hunt like Davy Crockett.

It took all of the major gun and rifle manufacturing companies over a year before gun departments and gun smiths were able to get their stock back to pre-election levels. The same was true for ammunition.

The fear of a war brewing, an emotional war caused by people who can’t speak openly with each other without becoming incensed, a civil war in the United States between “liberals” and “conservatives” is the most radical, unthinking and misbegotten thing I’ve ever heard. And yes, I’ve heard that same stupid opinion expressed.

On those occasions when I’ve heard it, I’ve asked, “Do you have any idea what a war between Americans would cause? Do you not think it would tear us apart so that we were on par with third world nations? Do you not think it would give our enemies, and we have some really strong ones, a perfect chance to invade us? How well do you speak Chinese? Or Russian? Or Arabic?”

The response I have gotten in every case was, “Well, I hadn’t really thought about it all that much.” I then told them I thought they should think about the consequences! Actually, I said something closer to, “You frippin Idiot! Yada, yada, scheisenkompf, yada, yada, slit for brains, yada, yada, #@/!/$^&\\!!” Some people need you to get their attention before water is allowed to penetrate their brain casing.

I pray nothing like that ever even comes close. If anyone thinks liberals and conservatives are far apart now – Heaven help us.

CoachPenny: You are correct about the conception conservatives have of liberals. I think you are also right about the reasons. The media seems to be doing it's best to focus on the extreme differences rather that try to report the areas where we actually have pretty common beliefs. Good schools for our children; actual fiscal responsibility (neither party has delivered there for a long time) rather than lip service; a safe neighborhood - wow, under those definitions someone might accuse me of being a left-wing socialist. NO, I'm an American and the "Pursuit of Happiness" is a common one among humans of all nationalities. For many years, the United States has been the only country with more immigrants coming in then going out.

They (the media) portray the Conservatives as ignorant hayseeds, gun-toting, mindless, Old Testament, Bible thumping bigots and nearly all Southerners (it adds to the psycholical impact if the language sounds different). Easy to pick "them" out, just wait until they open their mouth.

In actuality, some, many of us have college degrees from the whole gamut of colleges - state, land grant (A&M's mostly), and private. From schools like Sothwestern Missoui State College at Springfield (actually, that's the only place it's located), to schools like Texas, Baylor, Perdue, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Harvard, UCLA, University of Kansas, and Notre Dame, etc. I put in so many Big XII schools because we play in that conference and my prejudice shows.

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If I may borrow your idea, as a rule, we are a pretty diverse bunch.....from hard righties to centrists. We are not sheep. We know that Barack Obama is not the messiah (some members that make us wince think he's the Anti-Christ). We don't shirk personal responsibility, either.The reason the transparency issue is such a big deal with us is that then Senator Obama made a big deal out of it - if he'd said nothing at all there'd not be nearly the outcry that there is. Finally, we are visibly upset when socialist agendas are promoted and citizens are forced to pay for somthing two-thirds of the nation didn't wnat - at least not the way it was written - removing the individuals freedom of choice and forcing what Constitutionally should be a State's right on a State (California comes to mind) that can't afford it by any stretch of the imagination.

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For future communications and for my sanity, if each of you would focus on about three issues, it would allow me to respond better. Y'all are faster to the trigger than I thought you would be (pre-conceived notion?), and eight or so points from each make it very difficult to respond in an intelligent way. I apologize.

I thank you for your time. I hope my disagreement with Ms. Helen hasn’t caused irreparable harm.

Bob

PS: Spell Check said this document was too big to check completely. It was only able to do the first half. Of corse, I hardle evr make a mistreak.

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SPARKLE1908's Photo SPARKLE1908 Posts: 13,690
7/21/10 3:10 P

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Morrisdatter, now you KNOW that Obama's birth certificate is a fake..there's surveillance footage of him at Kinko's creating the document...I saw it on Faux News.."the reLIEable news source"....



"You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it." -Margaret Thatcher

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"If you can solve your problem, then what is the need of worrying? If you cannot solve it, then what is the use of worrying?"-Shantideva


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7/21/10 2:43 P

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I'm wondering where Popeye went. So I looked to see if he has recent posts - reading his recent posts was interesting.
Are you here, Bob? Do you honest-to-god believe that Obama's birth certificate is faked? I choked on my water, shaking my head. Granted, you didn't bring any of the things up on here that you discuss in your conservative team. But they make me wonder why you are here? You're silent. Granted, too, that we always have about six discussions going at any one time.
So I'm going to quote from Helen, my hero, again, for your benefit:
"For the record. I have no issue with all these morons asking to see President Obama’s birth certificate. After all, for eight years I demanded that President Bush produce a GED document to prove he had a brain. I never did get proof, but I also knew when to give up… right about the time he said that the human being and fish could coexist peacefully. The birth certificate argument is a horse as dead as the coyote that almost ate Governor Good Hair."

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7/21/10 1:41 P

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The only thing I've heard out of him lately is an ad he did with Clinton for Haiti relief. They had Clinton do all the talking and limited Bush to "thank you."

"...there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for."

"We're children of a fighting race that never yet has known disgrace." (The Soldiers' Song, Irish national anthem)

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Yes Irish...Makes me want to say...SERIOUSLY? After eight years of not questioning much of anything, we have a concerned group of conservatives, using way too much green house gas, waxing on about the GOOD OLD DAYS???? OF BUSH and CHENEY????

The only one not waxing on much theses days is Bush himself.



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Penny, I totally agree with you. To listen to the outcry, you'd think that President Obama was teh first elected official who ever couldn't deliver on absolutely everything.

"...there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for."

"We're children of a fighting race that never yet has known disgrace." (The Soldiers' Song, Irish national anthem)

"Every day above ground is a good day." (Chef Justin Kennedy of New Orleans, on Chopped)

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I think this is a common misconception many conservatives harbor....that if you are a liberal, you are automatically for banning gun ownership for private citizens (Carli, you are a prime example of the fallacy in that line of thinking). If you are a liberal, you hold no conservative views whatsoever, are annoyed by fiscal responsibility and think that for every problem, there exists a governmental solution.

As a rule, we are a pretty diverse bunch.....from lefties to centrists. We are not sheep, nor do we think that Barack Obama is the messiah to be blindly followed. We don't shirk personal responsibility

I think we do get disturbed when the so-called far-right wingers attempt to demonize President Obama, use scare tactics to sway the undereducated and promote unqualified candidates.

Lies, innuendo and biased dialogue have replaced "news" reporting. "Opinionators", with little intellectual heft, sensationalize and trivialize important issues.

Lack of transparency is not the most pressing of our problems with all things considered but, I am not personally surprised that what President Obama thought he could do and what he is able to do may not coincide.



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O! I haven't been over to marg&helen for some time ... they are a hoot (I mean that in the kindest way -- really enjoy some of their stuff)

How many guns distinguish a hunter from a militia member? I'd say more than 3-6, specifically, one or two revolvers and the rest a shotgun and a rifle or two -- NO automatics/semi-automatics!

As for your mention of better/other ways to defend your own household, Steph, I agree. Realistically, I know that the chance of my being within reach of my handgun at the very moment that some jerk decides to attack are not all that great, and I view the weapon as a last resort kind of thing. At the same time, if I hear some guy busting through my door at night, I know he ain't there to dance with me ... lol ... and you only have a matter of seconds to decide what you're going to do and act. You can't rely on the cops to get there in time.

Some time back I had this neighbor gone psycho, had his threats to my life on record, but in my state you have to be related to someone to get a restraining order against them (as if they were foolproof deterents - yeah, right) ... so after I installed fencing, alarms, and CCTV as my first line of defense, I got out the handgun, went to a range to have a gunsmith check it out, and started practicing again. I later traded it for a newer one. Yeah, one + one box of hollow points is enough for me, and hopefully I'll never need to use it on another human being.

So that's my story. Recently (go figure) Chicago's 30-YEAR gun ban was ruled unconstitional by the SC, so the city has to go back to other restrictions and limitations. I always understood why the mayors of such large cities wanted to restrict the sale/ownership of guns. Something I'm personally very aware of is the proximity of homes and the density of the population, even outside the city proper. There just is no room for "mistakes, misses, or collateral damage!"

I'll be paying attention to see what changes occur due specifically to gun violence. It's always been clear that no matter how many bans and restrictions there were, gangs, pimps, and drug peddlers were never deterred.

♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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I want to quote from my favorite blogger, Helen. Unlike many 82-year-old white women, she is definitely and wonderfully NOT a member of the teabaggers. These are some questions I would like to ask conservatives, too, Bob:
-----How many guns do you need before you cross the line from hunter to paranoid militia member?

How much oil has to wash ashore in the Gulf Coast before we seriously consider solar, wind and other alternative fuel sources?

How many skeletons and fossils do we have to dig up before evolution seems more plausible than the story of God sleeping in after six days of hard work?

How many wars do we have to start before we realize that, in war, there are no winners except Dick Cheney and Halliburton?

How long before Tea Party members stop misspelling signs and just start burning crosses?

Does that law in Arizona really do anything to fix immigration or is it just a new way of saying you don’t want a Mexican buying the house next door?

And just how stupid does Sarah Palin have to be before you reconsider giving her the codes to the nukes?
-------
For more of Helen and her in-the-face honesty: margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/

Edited by: MORRISDATTER at: 7/20/2010 (12:16)
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7/20/10 8:24 A

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You guys are so smart...lol!!!

I agree with Morrisdatter regarding guns..I don't have a problem with the 2nd amendment but I have a problem with WHO is owning a gun and WHY...

Not everyone is buying a gun to protect their property as there are some who believe a "war" is brewing and that since Obama was elected their "freedoms" are about to be taken from them, etc..(and there are some media outlets and persons who feed that hysteria)...

Ignorance+fearmongering=disaster!!!!

"You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it." -Margaret Thatcher

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Just a quick comment, as I'm walking out the door (well, OK, I'm actually sitting at the moment, but will soon be walking out the door): you asked, Bob, if I (we) didn't worry about Bush, the tyrant. Actually, it was the people around him that directed him that were the greater problem (Cheeney, Rumsfeldt, need I go on?). So, yes, I was incredibly unhappy about and embarrassed by that man as president, but I would never have considered a gun.

Guns and violence and "protecting my own" are not the only - and not the best, in my opinion - ways to bring about change. Guns give false security and "violence begets violence."

I look forward to your answer to Carli's question.

Whenever possible, be kind. It's always possible.
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Do forgive my aging brain, but I said a whole lot of stuff, so I'm not sure what the 2 biggest jokes I ID'd down there were ... somewhere in here we were talking about a whopper that all of the last 8 presidents have tossed before us, that being the "foreign oil" sound byte -- ain't no such thing ... oil is oil is oil ... the whole world buys it from the same market.

I can understand your perspective on the Kagan nomination, and am well acquainted with the arguments on both sides. That's one we probably won't come to agree upon except perhaps the much publicized quote of hers regarding confirmation hearings as vacuous, etc., and that when she found herself in the position of being the subject of one, she had to walk that one back, but I think we'd both agree that the hearings are pretty much an exercise in the nominee playing it safe so as not to give the Senate any "ammo", and we all know her original criticism was pretty accurate ... LOL. As for Kagan, I'm not making presumptions on how she might rule because most of what we have from her past (e.g., the Law School & ROTC issue) are actions she took based on who she was working for at the time. As a justice, she has entirely different obligations and loyalties to serve.

btw ... this is a side note ... but does anyone know what recourse/procedure applies if a SC Judge is determined unfit for the job? The first section of the Constitution says they shall serve as long as they follow "good behaviour." But I can't remember any justice ever being removed from the bench in my lifetime. ??????????????????

Let's see ... can you give me a citation for your claim that "Now, there are two instances where federal funds have been released to fund abortions, in spite of the Presidents promise and signed Presidential declaration." I'm curious under what circumstances this might have happened, because my understanding that the separate document Obama signed, mainly for Bart Stupak's vote, should not have even been necessary as there was no language in the AHCA that would have reversed the Hyde Ammendment -- The current version of the Hyde Amendment, established in 1997, allows federal funding for abortion in cases of rape and incest, as well as life endangerment, but tightens the life exception to permit payment only when the woman's life is threatened by "physical disorder, physical injury, or physical illness, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself." At the state level, 17 states currently have a policy to use their own funds to pay for all or most medically necessary abortions sought by Medicaid recipients; see table below. In addition, over the years, Congress has enacted legislation essentially banning abortion funding for other large groups of Americans dependent on the federal government for their health care or health insurance, ranging from federal employees and military personnel to women in federal prisons and low-income residents of the District of Columbia. With 2 separate versions, and all the changes the bills went thru with reconciliation, I don't know how the average person might keep tabs on everything thru to the final version ... so once again, we run up against the reality vs. theory of "transparency" in everything.

Let's see ... 2d Ammendment. Here I'm neutral, unlike probably most of the other members of this team. Repeal it? Not unless a world-wide, ENFORCEABLE, gun ban would be possible ... good luck with that. I had an ex- and have had a number of relatives who at one time or another lived in rural areas or owned hunting resorts, so I'm not a stranger to guns, and still own one for my own home protection. When people bring up the possible need for "a well-regulated militia" as a defense against a government turned tyrannical, I cannot help but wonder what good these weapons would be against the might and strength of our military and its enormous arsenal.

Which reminds me of another refrain I keep hearing. I'd like your opinion of what the devil people mean when they say "we need to take our country back." Back from whom? The rest of Americans who don't happen to agree with them? Back to what? 1775? The dark ages? Some kind of religious-based government (a new Christian Taliban? a reclamation of the Spanish Inquisition)? Things weren't so pleasant and comfy back then ... LOL -- I'm being a little snarky here, but I really do wonder what the heck people mean. You know the saying ... the grass is greener -- in this case, back in the 'good ol' days?' I don't think so ...

See, this ain't so bad, huh?


Edited by: CARLI_MAE at: 7/24/2010 (04:37)
♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Be forewarned. This is a long post, but I tried to answer most questions y’all had – at the same time expressing my opinion where it appeared we differed strongly. What I did was to open a Word page and put both windows on screen. Then I went through each of your posts. It’s really a short chapter for a book, only 1,585 words long.

Carli: You have identified the two biggest jokes that seem to have been placed before the voters. As a conservative, my right eyebrow rose to where my hair used to be. In both cases, I had to shake my head and wonder, “What were they thinking?”

I’ve not heard about the “Soapbox” team. If I had seen it on someone’s Spark Page I would have thought it was a forum where someone got up and ranted – then maybe someone (or multiple someone’s) would try and show them the error of their thoughts through a logical thought process. From what it sounds, it must have been pretty much of a free-for-all with nothing accomplished or no questions being raised that caused people to think (something all too few of the public take the time in which to indulge). I would assume there were multiple complaints sent to Spark about the presence of an inappropriate post.

When the healthcare legislation was proposed, I took nearly four days going over it, reading every single page. I have two years of law school behind me, so translating what it said wasn’t too difficult. What concerned me at the time was that it referenced so many IRS codes and had so many “fill in the blanks”, and that different sections contradicted each other on the subject of federal funds for abortion. Those conservative concerns were somewhat alleviated when President Obama pledged there would be no federal funds used for abortions. Now, there are two instances where federal funds have been released to fund abortions, in spite of the Presidents promise and signed Presidential declaration.

We absolutely agree on the Gulf oil spill. To me it seemed as if every politician from both parties ran as far away from the problem as they could possibly get. The way BP officials spoke of the well spewing into the water was enough to make me dizzy trying to understand their convoluted reasoning. The fact that so many people had ideas to help, nearly all of which were totally ignored (with the exception of Congressional testimony from Kevin Costner [I know, that left coast, Hollywood liberal]about technology he had personally invested in [but that shows he does support some crass Capitalism] and which was proven to work) bit me in my hindquarters. Americans are known for our ingenuity. A PhD in theory doesn’t help if one is not able to actually create something that works.

The recess appointments are, IMHO, just an excuse for either party to throw up smoke and sling some mud, except if the appointment happens to be major. So far in history, nearly none have been. What has been a major concern to conservatives is the huge amount of appointments of so-called Czars – none of whom have been subject to Senate scrutiny.

Your mention of the appointment of Elena Kagan to the SCOTUS is … interesting. I’ve held positions in business for years that required I interview prospective new hires. THE Most consistent thread I’ve found in those interviews is that past performance is The best indicator of future performance. Regardless of what a person says in an interview, their long term performance always follows what their previous performance has been. Ms. Kagan’s failure to follow federal law while the head of Harvard in banning military recruiters from campus (until she was threatened with the loss of all federal funds for the school) is hubristic at a minimum. Her outspoken contempt of Military policy (specifically, “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell) shows her ignorance of military life. Her proposal for open homosexual expression might work in an ideal society, but the fact we have to maintain a military argues against such an ideal. As a medically retired veteran, before “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” became the policy, many gay men “fell” down concrete stairwells in military barracks when their sexual orientation was discovered. It still occasionally happens – but not nearly to the extent it did in the past. I’ve not questioned the patriotic fervor of any homosexual I have and do know. I just know that there is a great fear of the unknown at operation in young military men.

When combined with her experience, lack of, as a practicing attorney and her total lack of experience as a judge on any level makes me a “NO” vote for her. As she has been a legal activist in the past … I firmly believe she will continue to be a legal activist from the bench.

Morrisdatter: Yes, I am still here. It would make me a fool if I went to the trouble of approaching your team and receiving polite responses and then just cut and run. Unless y’all tell me to go away, the only thing that would cause me to disappear would be vacation (temporary), injury (again, hopefully, temporary), or death (I guess that would be permanent).

I’ve already decided that I like speaking to y’all, because I have a good ear for humor, and I sense more than a touch of humor, maybe some sarcasm, and I feel the possibility some among you may be very sharp punsters (a high art in itself).

I have to respectfully disagree with you about the issue of gun control. The prime consideration of the Founding Fathers was the people’s ability to protect themselves from a tyrannical government – like what they had escaped from when ruled by England. As hot as both the left and right get at times, and the inclinations of administrations to force their ideals down their opponents throats, combined with the really deep division between each other’s philosophies, the establishment of a tyrannical government is a real fear. Did you have a fear of GW, his administration and his policies being forced on you? I believe that is one of the biggest reasons that no one has tried to declare themself a "President for Life". That, and the military wouldn't stand for it.

Secondly, the lack of the civil authorities to protect citizens is getting wider all the time. Budget constraints have forced almost every Police Department to cut back on hiring – or freeze it completely. My philosophy is that a gun in my hand is worth more than 20 cops on the phone. When a gang can walk in to the garage of an off-duty policeman and shoot him, my trust of stranger’s factor goes way down.

I have shotguns, rifles and handguns in my house. With my military training, I have learned and I have taught classes that a weapon should never be drawn or shown unless you plan to fire it. In defense of my home and family, I have no doubt I would use a weapon to protect them. Finally, I am one of those old west gunfighters with a concealed weapons carry permit (with this admission, I am ducking behind a protective shield to protect myself from the tomatoes and other things that might be pitched my way). The only time I really had to make use of it was going to Downtown Kansas City to a concert. Our car was the target of an attempted car-jacking, until I pulled my weapon. Knives and tire irons all ran away. My point is, our police can serve us but they cannot protect us. We have to take that responsibility.

I haven’t asked to address this team with any thought of things getting ugly. As I said in the beginning, y’all are the ones who decide if we’re allowed to converse, debate or disagree to disagree. I don’t expect anyone on this team to have some sort of epiphany and go out tomorrow and re-register as a Republican. It’s the ability of Americans to disagree without it breaking into a name calling contest (“You wacked out right-wing Nazi”, or “You slimy left-wing Socialist”). In my humble opinion, things like that are totally fruitless. I’d expect something like that out of children, but not adults.

As to denying me my opinion, since we are communicating in writing through the good graces of Spark, the only way possible to deny anyone’s opinion would be to simply not address them anymore. Once again, something like that is more the act of a child then an adult. I believe that Lady Irish would tell you I am not afraid to voice my opinion.

And I’ll make a promise here. If my opinion upsets one of you to the point where you can’t stand to discuss a particular subject any longer, I’ll take it off my list of “approved” subjects.

Bob

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7/19/10 6:08 P

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No biggie, Steph ... I always wondered how they came up with 3/5 ... very weird ...

I should have been more clear ... what sent me off onto the Constitution and the Courts was Bob's mention of "our current President and his candidate for the Supreme Court think that the Constitution is merely a guide and that it should change with the times, even if it's changed by judicial activism, and that the executive branch should have more power then [sic] it does"

Obviously, I agree in the wisdom of the document being framed so as to make it very difficult to alter legislatively, but disagree with Bob's view about Obama, Kagan & her mentor Thurgood Marshall, and WHO the "activist judges" are who are using the Court to get around the Constitution. i.e., my finger points to the far right rather than the progressives, if you can call Obama and Kagan progressives -- I see them as centrists. For example, consider who Kagan is intended to replace... Justice Stevens was appointed by a Republican President (Ford, 1975), and at the time of his appointment was considered a CONSERVATIVE & called himself a Republican, yet in today's climate, he's being called a LIBERAL (!!!!!), even by so-called left-leaning media commentators.

This in itself tells me the country as a whole appears to be leaning to the right rather than the left as so many conservatives seem to fear. The GOP seems far away from the party it once was, and seems actually afraid of calling out the far right in its ranks like Limbaugh, Beck, and Congress(wo)men like Bachmann, Boehner, Barton & Blunt.

Edited by: CARLI_MAE at: 7/19/2010 (18:20)
♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/19/10 2:35 P

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´Thanks, Marli Cae. I should have looked it up first.

And Bob: thank you for identifying yourself as a conservative, if you're still around. We've had members in this team who came in disguised and posted hate Obama junk links and Anne Coulter as an expert. She'd post and run - never came back to respond. So we finally quit replying to her posts and she's gone - for good, I hope.

The Supreme Court? No, it shouldn't be political, but it's a difficult thing to keep out of that realm, since our laws are passed by political bodies. I'd prefer to see a balance - and I'd even prefer to see an tilt toward the left. But, like journalism, it should be non-partisan. We know how that is going in the current main stream, however. Journalists have forgotten that news is to be objective. Columns can be partisan, but NEWS? It's to be objective and neutral. Just the facts, ma'am.

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Yup, Soapbox ... lol ... the first time I saw it show up on somebody's page I thought it was a team for whining about one's pathetic life and inability to lose weight ... then I saw it on Stephanie's page (!!!!!) and stopped to read the description -- hahaha

Interesting thing about the Constitution ... yes, it's meant to be a "living" rather than static document, as are all our laws. [Oh, Steph, forgive me, but AA's were only considered 3/5 a person, for accuracy.] At the same time, I also think it's a bad idea to mess with the Constitution in general. Recently in the news there have been some from the fringes claiming the document was "just a rough draft" and proposing we dump or change a number of amendments. Every time I hear calls for a CC(onvention) it makes me nervous. At the same time I disagree with tho often heard statement that Obama has over-reached his designated executive powers. If there has been any president who could have been questioned on that issue, it was GWBush.

On a similar note, (don't all scream in dismay) I happened to catch a speech on the Senate floor following passage of FinRef by Arlen Specter. He said he would be supporting Kagan for SCOTUS because he thought it was necessary to restore balance to the Court, [yeah, I know he voted against her for Solicitor General when he was a Republican ... but now he has no political stake in what he says anymore after losing the PA primary to Sustak] and emphasized cases such as Citizens United and others where the Court had gone beyond its role as interpreter of the law to legislation, how the Court has been recently drifting away from the principles of stare decisis/upholding precedent set by other decisions. He mentioned one case where I disagreed, and that was the MA District Court's overturning and ruling DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act)as unconstitutional. I happen to believe that it IS unconstitutional. But the reason I found his speech especially interesting, and overall very good, was that it touched on an aspect of the Court that I'm always hearing the religious right complaining about, but for the exact opposite reasons. The speech resounded with me because instead of hearing accusations that the Court had become too "liberal" ... this was essentially hitting the 9 as veering to far in the opposite direction, which is exactly how I've very recently begun to feel.

For most of my life, the one part of our government I'd felt fairly confident in were the higher courts, because regardless of political affiliation, the justices tended toward conservatism and centricity in their interpretation of law, taking in account the backround documentation and intent of the laws as well. That confidence has been eroded of late, not only with the Roberts court, but with decisions such as the lower courts at the district level -- i.e, the LA DC's decisions on the temp deep water oil drilling moratorium.

♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/19/10 9:55 A

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a "soapbox" team?? really??? I can only imagine how that went....lol

"You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it." -Margaret Thatcher

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I was a member of the Soapbox team and left it after getting tired of not being able to have a debate. Every time a non-conservative disagreed with a conservative, we were told we were denying them their right to free speech. godallmighty. It IS a boring refrain I hear from conservatives constantly. Apparently they don't know the definition of "debate."

The constitution was written over 200 years ago. In many ways it's a fine document. But it wasn't delivered by God and times change, which is also what the founding fathers knew at the time. It is not a static document - if it were, then African Americans would still be defined as 3/4 of a person, to take just one example.

Nor do we need the right to bear arms any longer. That was a necessity when the colonists started a revolution against the English. It's no longer necessary.

Whether or not I feel like having a discussion with you, Bob, will be shown with time. There have been liberals who joined the conservative team and it wasn't pretty. It was quite laughable actually. But I'm happy to join in as long as I don't have to hear that I'm denying you the right to your own opinion.

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Yikes! Ok, I'm over it ... knee jerk reaction Bob.

Let's see ... where to start. "better idea to start a team with that purpose as the goal of the team, that's what we should try" ... isn't that what the "Soap Box" team was supposed to be about? I've never looked into it, but have heard some folks who ended up feeling overwhelmed say they ended up leaving. The key would be to have leaders on both sides of the political spectrum maybe who wouldn't be afraid to yell "chill!!!" when things got out of hand.

Transparency ... I'm pretty much of the same mind as Sparkle on that issue. I think in some ways this admin. has done more than others in trying to get info to people with regard to what various proposed/passed legislation means to them in layman's words, for example, the site healthcare.gov. I wonder how many Republican/conservative/right-wing folks actually look at these sites, assuming the worst.

All pending legislation is posted at the Library of Congress website for anyone to read. Anyone expecting to easily understand all of it, even if they do take the time to do so, is likely to be frustrated because of the way our laws are written, the rules governing legal citations and writing, etc.

I always listen to CSPAN's televised Saturday Pres. address which is followed by the Republican address. In the last one, the Senator giving the Rep. address criticized Obama's recess appointment for (I believe it was) SS/Medicare saying it went against the promise of transparency. My feeling on that was 2-fold: first, Obama has only made a few such recess appointments, and these types of appointments are certainly not something no other Presidents have done in the past; and second, Republicans have been holding up some 100+ appointments for quite some time, which could severely impact the efficiency of the government as a whole, individual agencies, and in some ways compromise our safety. No other President has had so many appointees put on hold for so long, ever! If the Senator wanted to complain about lack of transparency, I would have thought it more fair to question what is going on with the on-going oil catastrophe. I myself have unanswered questions regarding information that seems to be being withheld all around -- by BP, by the Coast Guard, and by the local officials who are more worried about their tourist dollars than human health.

So yes, it's far easier for a candidate to make promises & come up with attractive sound bytes -- in this case "transparency" -- but there is a distinct difference and reality between Candidate X and President X.

I share your concern (mine dates back some 15 years or more now) about the ever-widening divide in this country. Now with groups like Tea Party, TPExpress, Oathkeepers, resurgence of militias and the Birch society, and a Senate in which Republicans uniformly vote "no" even after they've negotiated things THEY want into legislation, I am really creeped out. And some of the people I see running for office (Sharron Angle (R) in NV; and Alvin Greene (D) in SC) have me wondering if the nation is bent upon putting the absolutely dumbest/radical people they can find into Congress -- as if we didn't have enough of them already!


♫ Carli

“Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' But conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but because conscience tells one it is right.” ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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7/18/10 5:35 P

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Sparkle,

Thanks very much for your answer.

I agree 100% with you that each administration should give their "bosses" (the American people) as much information as possible.

Possibly what has happened that contributed to a disappointment in the transparency of the administration thus far was our desire to see more than we have seen in the past and be able to provide well thought out input.

Senator Obama was a very charismatic man. In my voting experience, the only two others that projected charisma of the same order of magnitude was Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy.

When Kennedy spoke, you couldn't help but believe, or hope, that many of the things he intimated would come through.

After his death, we unfortunately found that like every other strong leader, he had feet of clay. It hurt, quite a bit, and was a big reason I felt let down by the Democratic Party.

Yes, that may have been immature, but I was only 19 and I was immature.

My dad was a union member and even a steward for a good bit of time. As a certified Master Stone Mason, he didn't agree with some of the things the union stood for, but in a lot of circumstances he did agree with the union.

Before he passed away, the one big thing he disapproved of was that a union member who did not have a union job couldn't take a job that wasn't union. Choosing between the union and a member being able to put food on the table was not something he felt should be allowed to happen.

Maybe the questions he started also assisted me in choosing to which party I felt more comfortable with.

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POPEYETHETURTLE's Photo POPEYETHETURTLE SparkPoints: (218,107)
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7/18/10 2:27 P

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I hope to accomplish something that every administration has tried, but can't really do, and that's to reach across the "aisle" and find those things that tie us together as Americans. For too long there not only has been a split between the left and right side, but it's to the point where it is chasm now - not just a split.

I think there are a number of things that we can agree on, but because conversation between Liberals and Conservatives has dissolved into emotional finger pointing and blame, we can really no longer even hear each other.

OK, Bob, give me an example.

On the right, we have people who want to take our Constitution and make it a tool for beating down anyone who doesn't think exactly as they do - for one, I don't agree with their thinking the Constitution is some sort of draft.

On the left, no finger pointing meant, our current President and his candidate for the Supreme Court think that the Constitution is merely a guide and that it should change with the times, even if it's changed by judicial activism, and that the executive branch should have more power then it does.

The conservatives I call friend are perfectly happy that the founders of our Republic have made it very difficult to change the Constitution. The "Super Majority" of two thirds of the states need to approve of a change shows that it is something that the majority of Americans overwhelmingly approve.

Changing the Constitution to fit the definition that an administration has, is totally opposite of the way the Constitution and our Republic were set up.

To answer your question about how one of the liberal members of this team would be welcomed should you request the same thing I have, a dialogue between brother and sister Americans, I can only say that it would probably be close to the reception I perceive I have received on the first contact. Sort of an "Ooh, cooties. I don't even want to be associated with that person. They are just Evil."

Lady Irish, I know that you are as far from being Evil as could possibly be. You have a heart as large as all outdoors, and you have shared that with 600,000+ members on Dealing with Depression.

While we have significant differences in how we think politically, how we feel about other people is (surprisingly?) similar.

If the members of your team don't even want to discuss subjects where we have differences, that's OK. If we think that it is a better idea to start a team with that purpose as the goal of the team, that's what we should try.

If no one wants to join a team with objectives are to act like adults are supposed to act and have a rational, factual conversation/debate about matters political, for one, I would be severely disappointed.

If that's what is decided, I think that both "sides" should have equal leadership and that the leaders be committed to keeping finger pointing and name calling completely out. A tough job, but I think it's a doable job.

We just might decide that their are at least as many things that bind us together as there are that keep us apart (a love of home and family, an equal opportunity to make a living and an equal opportunity at a happy life, love of country, etc.).

Thanks for your consideration.

Bob Clarkson

"A government big enough to give everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."
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7/18/10 1:25 P

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Hello Bob...welcome...I appreciate you taking time to come over for a visit...hope it's a pleasant one!!!

As far as your question about transparency...of course the Obama administration hasn't been as "transparent" as people had hoped but in that same regard, what administration is or can be 100% transparent?

I believe in having reasonable expectations from those in government and I do believe that Senator Obama's intentions were to be transparent but he is only one man and the office of President is bounded by "unspoken" rules and regulations that none of us will ever know...

If there were true transparency, I think that many in Congress (in both parties) would be booted out and a lot of things the public need not know about would be revealed and could open a Pandora's box...

Sadly, people can't digest loads of information and have to be spoon fed bits/pieces in order to preserve some level of "sanity"...no one should have expected 100% transparency from the Obama administration or any administration for that matter...

That campaign promise was not a deciding factor when I went to the poll to vote...

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LADYIRISH317's Photo LADYIRISH317 Posts: 55,750
7/18/10 11:09 A

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I did say Bob could ask if we were open to debate. But just as he can ask, all of you can (politely) express your opinions. Do you want this to be a debate team or a gathering place for liberals?

I do have to ask, Bob, what you hope to gain here? And if one of us went to the Republicans/Conservatives board and asked for debate, I wonder what kind of reception we'd get.

Edited by: LADYIRISH317 at: 7/18/2010 (11:12)
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7/18/10 12:42 A

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Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

Two things I need to address first.

One - I am here with the permission of Lady Irish. She and I have been acquainted for some time on another site, and, while we have had our differences, both of us are still on speaking terms.

Two - I am a Conservative, and have been one since I graduated from high school, last century.

I would like to have a dialogue about the different perceptions that liberals have of conservatives, and vice versa, and those points of contention that seem to make someone revert to emotional finger pointing.

I'd like to do this in the form of a modified debate, with the subject not designed to indicate a bias in either direction.

Obviously, on this team, I am definitely outnumbered. I will try to answer each person who replies to a response of mine, individually.

I promise I will not call for reinforcements.

Please forgive me if I miss someone who's point of view is similar to another from your team.

Since we will be exercising our Constitutional rights to free expression, and some expressions can get very heated and emotional, I'd like to have Lady Irish remonstrate with us should any of us forget ourselves.

The first question I propose looking at is:

In his campaign for the Presidency, Senator Obama pledged to have the "most transparent administration in history". Are there transparencies you would like to point out? Are there instances where his actions or the actions of his administration have not been as transparent as you hoped?

Thanks,

Bob Clarkson


Edited because some of my fingers don't always hit the right keys when I type. bc

Edited by: POPEYETHETURTLE at: 7/18/2010 (12:57)
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