SparkPeople Hacker's Diet and other weight smoothing tools Team Messageboard Control bodyweight as an engineering problem. Weighted moving averages remove angst over fluctuations. SparkPeople Hacker's Diet and other weight smoothing tools Team Messageboard A plethora of tools for weighted moving averages There has been a proliferation of apps and websites lately for tracking a weighted moving average. See the links on this team for some of the ones we have known about for a while. <BR> <BR> Here is a summary of the popularity of such tools currently in use by members of the At Goal and Maintaining & Transition to Maintenance team who are in a weight maintenance challenge: <BR> <BR> Method # people using it <BR> <BR> 6 <BR> 2 <BR> 7-day ... Sun, 6 Apr 2014 11:11:21 EST New Hacker's Diet Forum Hi all, <BR> <BR> I've created a new Hacker's Discussion Forum over on <BR> <BR> <link><BR>et </link> <BR> <BR> is a site of forums on various subjects. Reddit makes it amazingly fast to sign up for an account. More importantly they have a very simple, elegant user interface to make it a lot easier to have a conversation. <BR> <BR> It is also very easy to be as anonymous as you want to be on Reddit. <BR> <BR> I hope you... Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:54:35 EST August 01 2013 I started my regime the last week of January, at a much higher weight than I thought I was: <BR> 202.4 lbs ( I'm a 5' 11" man ). <BR> <BR> Today, August 01 my weight is 184.2 lbs <BR> <BR> My goal weight is 184.0 lbs Thu, 1 Aug 2013 16:17:39 EST What The Science Says The link below goes to a video following a British medical journalist along on his investigation of weight loss techniques verified to work by science. <BR> <BR> I found the segment on item 4 to be particularly interesting as laments about slow metabolisms are quite common. A British celebrity who has been overweight all of her life despite exercising and "eating healthy" volunteered to keep a video and a written journal of what she ate. The clinicians also gave her "doubly labeled water"... Sat, 6 Jul 2013 18:15:26 EST Four Months Down I started my regime the last week of January, at a much higher weight than I thought I was: <BR> 202.4 lbs ( I'm a 5' 11" man ). <BR> <BR> <BR> I finished April at: <BR> 189.5 lbs <BR> <BR> I hurt my back badly in March. I pleasantly discovered that I could still lose weight with no and little exercise by sticking to calorie counting. However, I used that, a wedding and another trip as an excuse to get sloppy with my diet. <BR> <BR> I finished May at: <BR> 188.7 lbs Sat, 1 Jun 2013 10:43:09 EST Greetings from Taiwan Hi, <BR> <BR> I live and work in Taiwan with the church here. I am originally from Columbus Ohio, USA. <BR> <BR> I have been using SP for a few years, but conisistenty this past year or so. I have been at my target weight, or around it, for about 5 months. I have been using moving averages and trendlines to see how I am doing this past couple of months. I have found it good to see trends as they are starting and to cut down on reactionary dieting. <BR> Sun, 5 May 2013 01:03:30 EST Three Months Down I started my regime the last week of January, at a much higher weight than I thought I was: <BR> 202.4 lbs ( I'm 5 11 ). <BR> <BR> <BR> I finished March at a running average of: <BR> 191.0 lbs. <BR> <BR> I finished April at a running average of : <BR> 189.5 lbs <BR> <BR> My tentative long term goal is about 180 lbs, so I am not in a bad spot. <BR> <BR> My weight loss slowed down due to a back injury in March. Exercise was out of the equation March. I also got less diligent with my die... Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:00:56 EST Back In The 180s I'm still recovering from my back injury and the rate of my weight loss has greatly slowed down with the reduced activity. <BR> <BR> Good news: "slowed down" != "stopped". <BR> <BR> Today I got my first running average in the 180s at 189.9 <BR> <BR> This is down form 202.4 in January and this is the first time I weighed this low since putting 20 something pounds back on from 48 lbs I lost a few years ago. <BR> <BR> My current long term goal is 180 lbs, so it is gratifying to think that t... Fri, 12 Apr 2013 12:39:40 EST Two Months Down Beware the Ides of March <BR> <BR> Actually March wasn't that bad, but in the middle of March an old back injury got re-hurt. I haven't exercised in about two and half weeks. <BR> <BR> I started my regime the last week of January, 202.4 lbs, finished in February at 194.5 lbs and I am now finishing March at 191.0 lbs. <BR> <BR> I feel a lot more comfortable in my skin, the progress is tangible and not going anywhere so I can handle slowing up for a few weeks. My mood is good. Sun, 31 Mar 2013 13:29:58 EST First Sinker In The 180s! I got a sinker of 189.8 this morning, my first sinker in the 180s. My trend average is 192.3. My sinkers have been running about 2 - 3 pounds below my trend, so my trend and why weight will be solidly in the 180s by the end of March. <BR> <BR> Since I (re)started at 202.4 with my first (re)weighing, it felt very good to see the 189.8 on the scale this morning. <BR> <BR> Steve Sat, 9 Mar 2013 09:02:37 EST One Month Down First month done. Weighed in 2013 Jan 28 at 202.4 lbs. My 5 day running average this morning was 194.5 lbs. My sinker for this morning was 191.2 lbs. Clothing feels looser, which is pretty cool. Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:40:06 EST A Physics Professor's Diet Back in 2007 when I first got started with The Hacker's Diet and I found this charming essay by a physics professor applying the second law of thermodynamics to his situation of being overweight. <BR> <BR> I always remembered the cognitive therapy/REBT/cognitive reframing he did for hunger pangs. It was very clever. He just told himself that is the feeling of fat being burned up. I wonder how many people, given a new weight loss pill and being told one of the side effects ... Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:29:01 EST Cycling Fiber Tolerance I had an interesting learning experience last week. I was eating a hot high fiber cereal every day for breakfast and working in cruciferous leafy greens whenever it was comfortable. Those foods make me feel fuller for fewer calories. <BR> <BR> My weight stayed exactly the same for a few days. Toward the end of the week I decided to cut those foods from my diet for a few days through the weekend to see if it was all about water retention. It was, I got some pretty dramatic sinkers. <BR... Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:20:33 EST The Joy Fit Club I was having a conversation in another thread, when the topic of the lack of Hacker's Diet success stories on the web came up. There are just not that many people using it. I made the point that calorie counting/portion control is the one of the cores of the HD and there are many success stories out there for people using calorie counting. <BR> <BR> I like this youtube channel. It collects "Joy Fit Club" segments from one of those morning talk shows. Each segment is an inspiring succe... Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:35:03 EST Coding Horror: Article About The Hacker's Diet Pretty interesting article about The Hacker's Diet on the Coding Horror ( programming/tech ) site: <BR> <BR> <link><BR>7/10/geek-diet-and-exercise-programs.html </link> Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:35:24 EST Slashdot Article: The Hacker's Diet I thought other people might enjoy this. It is a thread on Slashdot about The Hacker's Diet, back in "the day", when it was new <BR> <BR> <link><BR>145259/hackers-diet </link> Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:04:39 EST Importing Into HD Online From PhysicsDiet.Com I decided I wanted to back up my old logs from PhysicsDiet.Com and import them into The Hacker's Diet Online, just in case something ever happens to PhysicsDiet.Com. <BR> <BR> The *.csv format between the two sites is a bit different. I had to play with the data a few times to get the import to work so I thought I would share what I did in case anyone else wants to do the same. <BR> <BR> The Hacker's Diet Online: <BR> <link><BR>kDiet </link> <BR> <BR>... Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:57:35 EST Hackers Diet Success Story: Geek Girl Gets Fit <BR> I found another nice Hacker's Diet success story on the web. I thought others might find it inspiring: <BR> <link><BR>-hackers-diet/ </link> Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:17:08 EST Spark Tracker vs Hacker Diets Sites? Hi, <BR> <BR> Has anyone tried the weight tracker on Spark? How does it compare to the Hacker's Diet trackers on other web sites? Do you get a graph? Do you get a running average ( calculated in the same way? )? Is it about the same. <BR> <BR> Thanks <BR> <BR> Steve Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:13:59 EST "The Hacker's Diet" is on<BR>-the-hacker-s-diet Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:20:51 EST Cool Hacker's Diet STory I found this on the web, I thought others might find it inspiring <BR><BR>ight Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:05:24 EST Traveling: how to log Hi everyone, <BR> <BR> I'm going abroad to visit my parents and I'm not sure how to continue my log. If they have a scale (not sure they do), the numbers will probably be off in comparison with my scale. <BR> How should I calculate the trend numbers? Should I pretend that my last trend number keeps steady for a week? Then continue to calculate when I get back? That would probably be my safest option, or not? <BR> Thanks in advance! <BR> <BR> I wish you all a beautiful day <em>67</em> Fri, 14 Dec 2012 04:55:35 EST "Magic" Hacker's Diet Foods I recently re-discovered two foods that are very powerful allies in helping me control my appetite. <BR> <BR> 1. Bob's Redmill High Fiber Hot Cereal <BR> <BR> 2. Green leafy cooked cruciferous vegetables. Kale, collard greens, turnip greens and mustard greens. <BR> <BR> Eating either of these a few times a week helps me feel more steady, and less compulsive about eating when I don't feel physical hunger. <BR> <BR> Nicely, number two also provides a boost to my calcium intake and a boat... Mon, 22 Oct 2012 09:50:56 EST Any PhysicsDiet Forum Veterans Here? Hi, <BR> <BR> I used to be tinker123 on the old forum. Anyone else here? <BR> <BR> Steve Sun, 21 Oct 2012 08:47:45 EST Other Hacker's Diet Forums? Hi, <BR> <BR> I miss the web board at <BR> <BR> I find the board, blogs at sparkpeople to be too convoluted for my tastes and I find the slide in advertisements to be obnoxious. <BR> <BR> Does anyone know of other Hacker's Diet weboards, forums, communities online? <BR> <BR> Thanks <BR> Sat, 6 Oct 2012 09:11:59 EST Purpose of Random Chatter and this thread This is a very quiet team obviously and we don't really need to change that. I'm making this thread for the sole purpose of a place to post something daily to stay "Active" in the team. There's no rules, no game, just randomity. <BR> <BR> If enough people were active to want games or memes or anything else of the sort, they can be started in this forum. Fri, 18 May 2012 16:52:34 EST Roll-your-own body composition tracker I just wrote a blog post about how I track 3-month trends in changes in my lean mass and fat. <BR> <BR> You can see it here: <BR> <link><BR>urnal_individual.asp?blog_id=4790344 </link> Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:52:29 EST Greetings and Salutations, everyone! A thank you to 4A-HEALTHY-BMI for inviting me to this team. <BR> <BR> I was first introduced to the Hacker's Diet back in the late 1999-2001 time frame by a fellow forum poster on Slashdot (a tech news/discussion website). At the time he was also blogging on a site he'd bought from someone else called "BiggestLoser" and I enjoyed reading the information he had to share. <BR> <BR> I was in big part fascinated by Hacker's Diet because it was written by someone involved with AutoCAD. Why? B... Sat, 24 Dec 2011 16:16:56 EST Hello Everyone, I'm new to this forum I've been at basically a twelve week plateau and received a suggestion for this team by <BR> 4A-HEALTHY-BMI. <BR> <BR> The numbers seem to make a lot of sense and I started today by entering intake of calories and calories burned through exercise for the past twelve week period. <BR> <BR> I'm looking forward to something that makes more sense than trial-and-error. Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:34:08 EST New Lose or Maintain Challenge coming up! Hey there, <BR> <BR> We'll be wrapping up the current Lose or Maintain challenge on Halloween, so it's time to start thinking about the next one. <BR> <BR> We'll use Google again. You have until November 7 to sign up. <BR> <BR> More info and the signup link are on the forum thread here: <BR> <link><BR>oard.asp?imboard=8&imparent=25783617 </link> <BR> <BR> Hope you'll join us! <BR> <BR> Invite your friends! <BR> <em>334</em> Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:14:40 EST Fractal food I saw one of these at the orchard outlet today and couldn't resist buying it, it was so beautiful. I've seen them before, but these were so nice looking and not beat up, I just couldn't resist. <BR> <BR> Turns out John Walker (author of the Hacker's Diet) also likes them. Go figure. <BR> <BR> <link> </link> Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:53:24 EST Implementation in Google docs Here's a HD-type chart implemented in Google documents: <BR> <link><BR>0Ah4KrA4GkhKgdEF6dlJkbnNlVEFCZlhxRElCW<BR>DZNUlE&hl=en_US </link> <BR> <BR> To see the graph click the "trends" tab at the bottom of the page. Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:24:24 EST Smoothing tracker for Android Here's a barebones solution, though it has a few niceties not present in most of the HD trackers such as a prediction line and weight targets. But it's weight tracking and that's all - no food stuff (other than that it does generate surplus/deficit calorie estimates), no exercise ladder, no BF%. So basically, most of what you need (for most sparkers' purposes) and nothing you don't. It has a nice iOS-style interface, and it will slurp in data from Withings. I have to get one of those. <BR> <... Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:38:40 EST "Scary" Lose or Maintain Challenge (til Halloween) Let's see how well we can do between now and Halloween. <BR> <em>431</em> <BR> <BR> To join, sign up here: <BR> <link><BR>?hl=en_US&formkey=dG1KMXVNamNiZVJWbk83<BR>UzVoT3VTM0E6MA#gid=0 </link> <BR> <BR> To be part of the current challenge you need to join by Monday, September 5. After that you will need to wait until the next one. <BR> <BR> We will record our weights (and % body fat if you happen to measure it) once a week, for 8 weeks (through Ha... Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:25:23 EST hi hi Thu, 4 Aug 2011 06:40:11 EST Hello! I've lost serious amounts of weight twice in my life, and both times it was guided by the Hacker's Diet. Sadly, both times I subsequently got distracted with other things, called the problem "fixed", and gained back the weight. <BR> So, here I am, back again - and it's going to stay off, this time. Wed, 1 Jun 2011 21:40:12 EST Now that I have read it... All I can say is "WOW, that just makes sense. It's time to start logging weight daily!" Sat, 23 Apr 2011 03:49:00 EST Looking for an explanation.... <link><BR>lery_enlarge.asp?id=3759725 </link> <BR> <BR> This link should take you to my smoothed weight graph - 1 year's worth of data (lots of missing points until January 2011). <BR> <BR> My question is, why does the caption say that I have gained 0.02 lbs. per week over this time when the trend line starts between 214 and 215 pounds and is currently right around 209 lbs? Is it a rounding error? <BR> <BR> Not that I care particularly about .02 ... Wed, 9 Mar 2011 04:52:10 EST Greetings! After reading some of the threads, I feel like I'm in the right place - I remember programming on ticker tape and sending it to the mainframe at UPenn to run it - (I don't think it was ENIAC, but you never developed more slowly back then than it does now!) <BR> <BR> I miss Fortran 77, which made sense to me - gave up programming when it got visual (because I don't visualize well at all) <BR> <BR> Anyway, glad to find some comrades - Sun, 16 Jan 2011 11:39:51 EST The Ups and Downs Of I know Matt is working on converting the site. <BR> <BR> Anyone else notice it tends to be down in the morning, but comes up later in the day? <BR> <BR> LOL! I guess he is sneaking some work in before he goes to work. <BR> <BR> Steve Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:26:06 EST My Confessional And Hand Holding 3 Years ago I lost 48 lbs with the Hackers Diet while using the PhysicsDiet site. <BR> <BR> I've kept all but 10 lbs of it off. <BR> <BR> Basically, I've been cocky that I can always get it back off and I've been slack about keeping a food diary. <BR> <BR> <BR> So, since the forum at Physics Diet is gone for the foreseeable future, I am going to use this thread as my online confessional to keep up the feeling of being involved :). <BR> <BR> So, starting off... <BR> <BR> I'm 5 11. I w... Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:52:41 EST Smoothing algorithms Does anyone happen to know what smoothing WeighTracker is using? Chart at the bottom of <link><BR>y </link> <BR> <BR> Also, does anyone have smoothing algorithms they prefer to the exponentially weighted 10% smoothing (iirc) as used in PD? <BR> Fri, 30 Jul 2010 02:12:57 EST PhysicsDiet is down!!! If you go to PD, you get a 404 page, and the URL says "<BR>tm" so maybe the bill is not paid? We can hope it will come back up but maybe this is a good time to talk about the alternatives? There's been talk on the forum for a while that the site was no longer supported and would go away someday. <BR> <BR> -Hacker's Diet site: no community aspect, no calories eaten or burned features. Barebones HD. <BR> -Spreadsheets (including Zawodny's <link>http://... Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:38:40 EST Anyone Know Anything About Boulder? I realize this is a bit off the usual forum question, but does anyone know anything about Boulder? I will be there for nearly 2 weeks and want to figure out what I can do with a sort of banged up ankle. <BR> <BR> Thanks, <BR> Carrie Fri, 28 May 2010 10:28:50 EST Weight is not the only measure I've been getting bummed at how long it takes to lose the last few pounds. This morning, for some bizarre reason, I decided to take my measurements. It's the first time I've done that in 3 months (during which time I've lost 1.5 pounds. <BR> <BR> For the first time, I could see in numbers what the lowered body fat percentage meant since except for my upper arm, everything was down between 2 and 4 inches. <BR> <BR> Have to remember to do this once a month. Wed, 26 May 2010 07:58:32 EST Question about recording weight and calories in I weigh in each morning and record my weight on I also track calories. Obviously, I don't know my final calorie figure until the end of the day, so I end up going back and editing my morning weight with my calories consumed for that day. It seems a bit backwards in process. Maybe I should record today's weight with yesterday's intake? Maybe it doesn't really matter? What do you do? Sun, 23 May 2010 06:53:11 EST Congratulations Congratulations to 4--healthy-BMI who is now #1 on the Physics Diet list again. I fell off the top 10 and probably will never see that again since I'm pretty much where I'm staying. Sat, 15 May 2010 08:44:03 EST Using Average Weight I've decided to stop using the weight on the scale on a given day to record on Sparks and go to the moving average. Has anyone else done that? Thu, 13 May 2010 08:54:18 EST Hello I'm brand spanking new to the Hacker's Diet-- learned about it reading other Sparker's Blogs and am looking for some new tips and tools as I transition into maintenance. I've just started browsing Hacker's Diet website and other links 4-A-Healhty-BMI has posted and interested to see what everyone here has to say. <BR> <BR> I've been on Spark about a year and a half now; started my journey to health long before that to address the issues that caused the weight gain, and very happy to have ... Fri, 16 Apr 2010 03:08:31 EST Hello I guess it never occurred to me to check for a Hacker's Diet spark team before. I don't follow the diet very closely, but I use the Hacker's Diet Tracker religiously. I was actually intending to use the spark web search to find Walker's page but just did a spark search and came across this! <BR> <BR> So well met, and what not. :) Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:52:36 EST East Coast Transplant in Texas Hi everyone! <BR> <BR> My name is Jeremy. I'm originally from Virignia and currently in the Fort Worth, TX area and I've been on SparkPeople since July 2008. In my first three months of being here, we were also having a weight loss challenge at work, and during that time I was able to lose about 27 lbs. (257 down to 230) After that point, though, it's been rough. I haven't had the motivation to track my food, I was burnt out on going to the gym, and I'm currently back up to 240. <BR> <... Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:50:04 EST Neat! I've been using Hacker's Diet since 2007, and it's made me nearly immune to the ups and downs of the scale. It's amazing what an emotional roller coaster that stupid number is without any context to put it in. It's also amazing seeing how my weight always goes up when I'm lax in tracking on Hacker's Diet. <BR> <BR> Also, if you use Hacker's Diet Online, you can browse public accounts in the Utilities section. My account name is Upsilon Dixie. :) I do weigh myself pretty much every day, but ... Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:57:36 EST Hi! I'm Patricia, formerly known as a-thread-addict. <BR> <BR> 4a-healthy-bmi invited me to join the team as we've bumped into each other at the PhysicsDiet site. <BR> <BR> Your invite came at a great time as I've lost a bit of my mojo. I'm still watching what I eat and exercising but my heart isn't in it 100%. I'm not really sure what's up with that! <BR> Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:28:59 EST Anyone Using the Fitness Ladder? I'm curious to know if anyone is using the fitness ladder (either introductory or lifetimes) that's mentioned in the book. If so, how's it working out for you? Thanks very much! Mon, 8 Feb 2010 22:50:33 EST Hello from Arizona I signed up with SparkPeople yesterday. I read the Hacker's Diet several times and find new inspiration with each reading. I signed up with a long time ago but didn't use it consistently until last December, the same time I started using a food log. I rounded up on my calories and rounded down on my water intake. Now, I simply love how easy I can pinpoint my caloric intake here on SP, paired with my heart rate monitor to calculate calories burned during exercise. I'm glad... Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:40:46 EST Hi all Thanks to 4A-HEALTHY-BMI for telling me about this team - I'm looking forward to getting to know you. <BR> I'm pretty new user on physicsdiet - I just found it from something 4A-HEALTHY-BMI wrote a few weeks ago and logged my weigh-ins from my starting point in May 2008 for fun. <BR> I haven't read all of Hackers diet, but what I have read intrigues me and I'll read more and check out the tools. <BR> I think the Hacker's Diet is something my darling would like, being a computer nerd and sys... Sat, 23 Jan 2010 05:57:29 EST progress! Woo-hoo! For the first time ever, on Physics Diet my average BMI is IN THE GREEN! <BR> <BR> <link><BR>lthy-bmi </link> Sat, 9 Jan 2010 10:25:05 EST How to account for starvation mode I have been tracking using the online tool for about a month and noticed the correlation between my average calories dipping below 1650 and a weight loss stoppage or even gain. I am presuming this is due to having too great a calorie deficit and my body cutting metabolism. Yet the program just tells me I am eating too much, even though the next calendar month I lost weight eating more. Activity was equal. Is there a way for the online program to recognize this and adjust the excess/ deficit r... Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:47:11 EST Greetings from Upstate NY! Hi Everyone, <BR> <BR> I've been using for a while, but it took me some time to find this Team. <BR> <em>211</em> <BR> <BR> I love love love having weighted moving averages plotted for my calories, body fat % and weight, because it helps me see and understand what's going on. And boy does that trend line help with the motivation when it comes to fluctuations and plateaus... <BR> <BR> Also, being a somewhat competitive person (who ME?! LOL), I've enjoyed watching my stat... Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:28:22 EST Kia ora everyone! Kia ora everyone, my name is Natalie, and I'm 27 and live in New Zealand. <BR> <BR> I found a link to the hacker's diet in the weekend, and spent all Saturday reading it. I was initially sold on the calculations for a trend line, but as I read the whole book I realised the author and I are one the same wave length. <BR> <BR> I like the specific calculations of calories for weight loss, and I'm a sucker for spread sheets and data graphs. But the kicker for me was his endorsement of diet co... Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:56:52 EST Hacker's Diet Online Alternative I started tracking using the official Hacker's Diet Online tracking tool. I like it a lot, except it's not easy to make public. A friend over at the <link> </link> forum introduced me to <link> </link> which uses the same tracking technique as Hacker's Diet. It throws in a few other things as well, AND you can share your info publicly! <BR> <BR> Here's mine: <BR> <link><BR>eDay </link> <BR> <BR> Tue, 4 Aug 2009 06:38:49 EST Hello All! I've recently joined "SparkPeople". I discovered "The Hacker's Diet" a few months ago, April, just as I was coping with learning I have diabetes. So, I have several motivating factors, but I think the Hacker's Weight log and Chart is the biggest one for me. My daily weights are all over the place, and I know from previous attempts how demoralizing that is. But that moving average line is steadily heading South. It really makes a difference in my attitude! Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:01:57 EST Hello folks! I started the Hackers Diet only 5 days ago, but I imported all my weigh in data since this past February. The system looks very promising. And I do love NUMBERS! :) <BR> <BR> I'm using the Hackers Diet Online as my primary means of logging. But I also started my own version using google docs. <BR> <BR> I think I'm really going to enjoy this... Sun, 10 May 2009 08:06:28 EST