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NEPTUNE032701 SparkPoints: (4,663)
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2/27/14 7:37 P

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Well, I'm certainly not advocating a no holds barred sugarfest, just pointing out that our increasingly sedentary lifestyle is a big factor in the obesity epidemic. And I'm a little jealous of mom and grandma who had an extra 500+ calories in their daily budget due to a day full of childcare and chores.

Edited by: NEPTUNE032701 at: 2/28/2014 (08:05)
HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/27/14 6:51 P

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I wasn't overweight for many years when I still ate a lot of sugar because I exercised so much (and loved it). But by blood sugars crept up until I was in the pre-diabetic range in spite of the exercise and my body fat % went up a lot, too so I traded muscle for fat.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/27/14 6:45 P

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I agree, people will go without to buy their cigarettes. I think showing people what can happen when you smoke is more convincing. Then again I have family that smokes and they still smoke. The current ads haven't persuaded them to quit yet.

~~~~~~~~~~

I also like to compare the thought taxing items or raising prices will work when referring to cigarettes. It is literally one of the most expensive habits, yet that factor doesn't stop anyone. Constant awareness and information of proper health being spread is one of the best ways to get people to realize the issue.


Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
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NEPTUNE032701 SparkPoints: (4,663)
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2/27/14 6:43 P

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Russell, when I mentioned my mom using more sugar than me I wasn't talking about adding a little to a dish. More like dessert 3 times a week and sticky buns for weekend breakfast, plus a cookie jar and a fondness for root beer floats. And it was the 80s, not the 50s. But my mom was never overweight because she was so active. For me to maintain the same weight I exercise daily, eat less and have desserts and sweets very rarely. But I do keep a sugar bowl on the counter, for my morning coffee.

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2/27/14 2:15 P

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The new laws of labeling are really important for those who watch what they eat but aren't sure of certain foods. On the other hand, labeling and taxing will do next to nothing for those who never care to look or care in general about what they eat (which unfortunately are a lot of people). Junk food (chips, candy, soda, etc) is usually way more expensive than fresh veggies or fruit....yet people still purchase junk food over fresh produce.

I also like to compare the thought taxing items or raising prices will work when referring to cigarettes. It is literally one of the most expensive habits, yet that factor doesn't stop anyone. Constant awareness and information of proper health being spread is one of the best ways to get people to realize the issue.

MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/27/14 2:03 P

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I think it is great that added sugar will now be on the label. It will be so helpful in making an informed decision.

Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
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e.html


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/27/14 2:00 P

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There are many breads that can be made without yeast and therefore don't require sugar. I used to make soda bread, also sourdough bread made only with rye sour dough, now I make nut meal breads with a little baking powder or beaten egg white.

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 1,251
2/27/14 1:35 P

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Agreed we should definitely be aware of the amount of added sugar we eat. Did you see on Dragonchilde's labelling thread that Added Sugars will be listed separately now. Very good news IMO it should make more people aware of just how much sugar is added to foods.

I used to make overnight bread without sugar and minimal yeast all the time when I used to make and eat a lot more bread. If you're making it yourself at home your probably only adding a tiny amount anyways unless it's a rich, sweet type if bread. That small amount (1 tsp per loaf) probably isn't enough to harm you. It's really the cumulative amount if sugar that is the issue.

In case your interested :)
www.homemadeloaves.co.uk/2012/09/why-use-s
ugar-in-bread-dough.html?m=1


JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids

Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi


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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/27/14 1:10 P

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Then I guess we can agree that people should watch the amount of sugar they consume. It has to be voluntary. Education is the key.

For instance, I used to drink a Big Gulp every day. When I saw that it was the equivalent of eating a bag of sugar. I cut it out. Now I have not had a soda for a year. Just not worth the extra empty calories.

Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/27/14 11:31 A

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HFCS is sugar, just like table sugar. Both are made up of glucose and fructose with HFCS on average being higher in fructose. When this thread was started both were included. If we look at statistics of sugar consumption it makes no sense to look at one or the other, we need to look at both combined.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/27/14 11:03 A

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I have made bread and forgotten to add the sugar. I had to throw it away. I used to bake things from scratch. It didn't rise. It wasn't the yeast. Bad yeast in bread has a peculiar odor.

Now, hardly anyone makes anything from scratch. Back in the 50's and 60's I would bet everything (or almost everything) was made from scratch. Even in the 80's.

I remember in the early 80's suggesting that my mother use a cake mix. And you would have thought that I had stabbed her in the heart.

I do try to avoid HFCS as much as possible.



Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 2/27/2014 (11:09)
Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/27/14 10:59 A

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We do not eat the same amount of sugar we did in the 1950's .

www.businessinsider.com/chart-american-sug
ar-consumption-2012-2


although it doesn't look to be so much of a difference.. Maybe 80 lbs in 1950, versus 100 lbs. now and starting to fall...?

The answer is that sugar was replaced.. with HFCS.

www.diabetesdaily.com/voices/2009/05/chart
-obesity-high-fructose-corn-syrup/


Our consumption of HFCS is now around 50 lbs, versus 0 in 1950, so between the two, intake has increased from 75 to about 150, almost double in the past 60 years.

Those who saw Mom adding sugar to a lot of things as children.. the reason Mom had to add it was that it wan't already in the food. Most of the sweeteners we consume today we don't add to our food. We just eat our food. As a child, I used to add sugar to my cereal. Cereal tasted horrible. Nowadays, most cereal could double as dessert. If they do make a " healthy " cereal, it gets huge praise, like they somehow made it healthy. My brother eats Raisin Bran, so when we are shopping I look at what they sell now. They have chocolate Cheerios now, and I think I saw some Cap'n Crunch, that was only CrunchBerries, or something like that. We ate Rice Krispies, now they eat Fruit Pebbles, and Cocoa Pebbles.

It is the combination of the sweeteners that is the problem. Much easier to slide HFCS and sugar into the food you eat daily, instead of seeing Mom add cups of sugar to a recipe. Come to think of it, when was the last time Moms were making food from scratch? emoticon

Maybe the problem is that we don't make our own food. I cook all my food at home, and there just isn't any sugar in any of it, besides the vegetables, and fruit. Even pasta has just 1 g of sugar per oz., so just 2 g per serving ( my brother eats pasta ). Most of his sugar comes from Raisin Bran (18 g a cup ) and milk ( 12 g a cup ), and yogurt ( 26 g per 6 ozs. ). That is 56 grams of sugar from " healthy " foods. With 2 servings of pasta ( 4g ), that's about 60 g a day, without adding anything. That is probably below average. If he eats 240 g of carbs a day, that is 25% from sugar

My intake with veggies is about 17.5-21 grams a day, which he gets more of in one yogurt. People aren't choosing to add that sugar. It is already in their food. We don't have a drop of sugar in our home. His sugar intake is 3 times higher than mine, not counting his fruit.

I think most people would think Raisin Bran with skim milk, yogurt and oranges, and chicken ( just 6 ozs. ), with 2 servings of pasta is healthy, so a " normal " diet would be much higher. Sauces, sweets, pop etc.

I wonder how many of you have the old sugar jar in your home that was on the kitchen counter when I was a child. I can't imagine anyone would need it today, except maybe for baking? They probably have sugar in the mix now..lol. Just add emoticon





"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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PROGRESSFORWARD's Photo PROGRESSFORWARD SparkPoints: (61,510)
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2/27/14 10:17 A

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No, I don't believe there should be an additional tax on sugar.

JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 1,251
2/27/14 8:33 A

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You can easily make bread without sugar. The sugar makes it rise faster but isn't necessary to make a loaf of bread.

Canned tomatoes and pasta sauces often have sugar or HFCS in them for no reason, it's not necessary to preserve it.

Corn bloats me, gives me gas and I don't digest it anyway. So I don't eat it.


Also the idea that active people and athletes NEED to fuel themselves with table sugar is laughable. Healthy fat is calorie dense and doesn't have any of the negatives that sugar does. It's a much better choice because it is a source of long lasting, steady energy as opposed to the peaks and valleys you get from table sugar.

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids

Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi


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NEPTUNE032701 SparkPoints: (4,663)
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2/27/14 8:11 A

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Anarie brings up a good point re: our mothers and grandmothers. When I look at the way my mom and grandma ate it was more sugar, more fat, more carbs- just more calories overall than I eat. And they weren't working out every morning like I do. But they were housewives and moving all day long, while I sit at a desk 50 hours a week. As a society we've shifted away from active jobs and we spend the majority of our day sedentary. It takes more effort and mindful eating to maintain a healthy weight than it did previously.

HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/26/14 11:20 P

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Sugar is not the only possible preservative. There are many others to choose from.

Russell,
in some way I agree that healthcare should not be a business for the reasons you mentioned. But I think we don't have too much of a choice at the current time. The government has done a lousy job in providing health care for everyone (and I'm not mainly or even primarily talking about Obamacare) and I'm not sure that is going to change. While many aspects of health care should be regulated I think there is a role for free market and competition in health insurance as long as our government does not take care of everyone's needs.
Birgit


You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/26/14 11:02 P

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I just saw the mentioning the sugar in bread. I am a baker and you put sugar in bread to make the yeast start growing. And I always heard that a pinch of sugar in tomato sauce will counteract the acidity of the tomatoes. (of course some peoples pinch is really a tablespoon)

I have a beloved cook book that belonged to my mother from the late 50's. There is sugar in everything. From ketchup and pickles, to bread and biscuits.

Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 2/26/2014 (23:03)
Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/26/14 10:59 P

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I totally agree, healthcare shouldn't be a business.

Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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ANARIE's Photo ANARIE Posts: 12,419
2/26/14 10:30 P



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Just want to correct some misinformation in this thread:

"The government should subsidize vegetables and fruit instead of unhealthy things like corn."

1) Fruit and vegetable production is INCREDIBLY heavily subsidized!!! Among other things, the state and federal governments spent many billions of dollars diverting water hundreds of miles to previously desert areas of California and Arizona (and to a lesser extent, Texas) to allow fruit and vegetable production, then gave the farmers zero-interest, "pay when you can" loans to build irrigation systems, and created contracts to sell them water at pennies on the dollar in perpetuity. The water that costs cities (and thus their residents) hundreds of dollars per acre-foot is given to farms for as little as a dollar per acre-foot. Originally, those arrangements were restricted to farms smaller than 100 acres, but those restrictions were lifted in the 70s and 80s (mostly under Nixon but with a second huge deregulation under Reagan) so the farms were bought up by conglomerates, mostly oil companies. I don't know if it's still going on, but for a while the oil companies had a very neat system going where they paid a tax for offshore drilling rights that they then got right back as direct payments for owning fruit orchards that hadn't started producing yet. Without those subsidies, you would be paying at least $10 a pound for tomatoes, spinach, lettuce, or oranges, if you could get them at all, and there would be no such thing as California almonds or olives; those would have to be imported from overseas at $45 a pound or more.

2) Corn is not an unhealthy food. It's high in fiber and relatively high in protein, including amino acids complementary to those in beans and in several vegetables, so it's a very useful food for vegetarians. It's an ancient food, one of the first cultivated by humans, and was a major part of what allowed civilizations to arise in Mesoamerica. It's one of a handful of foods that are truly native to America. It's not the most nutritious food in the world, but it's certainly not unhealthy any more than grapes or cucumbers are unhealthy because they're not the most nutritious in their categories.


"Obesity rates have skyrocketted because of sugar."

Calorie consumption per capita in the US did skyrocket between the 1970s and the first half of the last decade. (The increase flattened out in 2004, and dropped a tiny bit in the last few years, but is still FAR too high.) But the extra calories didn't come primarily from sugar. Fats were by far the biggest contributor to the excess-- calories from fats account for almost 40% of the increase, while sugar is responsible for less than 20%. But we eat more of everything, even vegetables.
www.usda.gov/factbook/chapter2.pdf

"'They' are trying to get us addicted by putting sugar in things that never had it before, like bread and tomato sauce."

Find your great-grandma's recipe box. Her bread and tomato sauce had sugar. Her pickles and salad dressings were loaded with it. If she canned fruit, she used about 50% more sugar than the average commercially canned fruit today (and if she bought canned fruit, there were no pears or peaches in "light syrup," much less juice-packed; until the 70s you couldn't find anything that wasn't in heavy syrup.) She probably even put sugar in many of her vegetable dishes, and she glazed her meatloaf and ham with it. (Seriously, when I use my grandmothers' recipes, I have to cut the sugar by half. Grandma A's whole wheat bread has 1/4 cup!)

My favorite was an earlier thread where someone said, "They've even started putting sugar in ketchup!" Um, darlin'... Hate to tell you this, but ketchup is basically tomato jam. It is and always has been *mostly* sugar. Which leads to...

"Sugar is 100% bad; 'they' shouldn't even be allowed to make it."

Do you know why your great-grandma put sugar in bread? Do you know why ketchup has so much sugar? Because sugar is a preservative. Modern food producers use it for the same reason. If they put a teaspoon of sugar (or HFCS) in a loaf of bread, they don't have to use chemical preservatives to keep it from spoiling before it gets to you. How long can you keep tomato paste in your fridge before it molds, versus how long ketchup stays usable? Sugar is the least harmful additive for preserving food, and one of the most effective.

And as others have already pointed out, there are many, many people in the world who can benefit from cheap calories and don't require all of them to be nutritious. For example, I know one couple who are volunteer backcountry patrol crew at the National Park where I live and will routinely hike 120 miles a week through high desert and mountains. (They have to replace their hiking boots at least once a month because they wear right through the soles.) They're both slightly underweight to begin with, and they burn upwards of 7000 calories a day. They cannot physically hold 7000 calories' worth of meat and vegetables. Without empty sugar calories, they couldn't do the work they do. The same goes for most real farmers during their busy season, for firefighters, police on foot patrol, scientific field researchers, fishermen, construction workers, ranch hands, many postal carriers... If you spend a few minutes thinking about it, you can probably add at least 50 other jobs to the list, without even getting into athletes and people with active hobbies. Sugar most definitely is "real food" for people in those situations. Should somebody who burns 15000 calories on an overnight search-and-rescue mission in the mountains have to pay $25 for a bottle of Gatorade just because you and I will drink it unnecessarily if it costs less?



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EELPIE's Photo EELPIE Posts: 2,669
2/26/14 6:30 P

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Russell - an fyi - someone is looking for low carb advice, and everyone recommended you to talk to her/him: www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/messageboard.a
sp?imboard=7&imparent=33134320


The best exercise in the world is to bend down and help someone up.


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/26/14 5:20 P

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That is why health care shouldn't be a business Mandie. In business, the sole purpose is profit, and service is just good enough to keep customers happy, not give the best service available.

So govt taking control, and running it at no profit, would mean that they would make sure they had enough beds for PEAK capacity. If Saturday at 3 a.m., they filled 300 beds with car wrecks from drunks, and heart patients partying with too much salty foods, then they would have 300 beds. A business would look at AVERAGE capacity, and buy that many beds. Say 200, and those 100 patients can get a bed in 12 hours, when the drunk guy gets better and leaves the hospital. On Monday, they only need 150 beds, so you'll get a bed eventually.

The difference between business and govt control, is that business doesn't care about whether your grandmother waits in a gurney for 18 hours to get a room. Govt. isn't trying to make money off your ill fortune. This often leads to waste, as we all know, but sometimes a little wasted money, is more important than anything else. Especially if it is YOUR grandmother waiting for a room at 3 a.m. in the E.R. hallway on Saturday night.

What do you say then?.. Suck it up grandma, we need to keep profits up, so hold out till Monday morning.

I find that people vary on this topic based on how much they or a loved on spend in the hospital. I spent 2 years watching my Mom die of cancer, and months in the hospital myself, as well as my brother, both of us for heart issues.There are two things I am certain of..

1 ) Putting a price on health care is evil
2 ) Health care in the U.S not as great as the average American thinks it is.



"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/26/14 4:55 P

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My mom and dad have gone to the emergency room at 3am and not gotten a bed until the afternoon. And they have really good insurance.

Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/25/14 1:28 A

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I can't really follow the arguments there on beds in a hospital, but as a frequent emergency room visitor over the years, I will say that there is a huge lack of beds, doctors, nurses etc. in hospitals, even though the demand is enormous. My cardiologist sees dozens of patients a day, and can give me about 5 mins. tops. I hate her, so that isn't a problem..lol, but when I go into the E.R. at 3 p.m, and get a bed at 6 a.m. the next morning, and get " stacked " in empty rooms to wait, I have time to sit and wonder why the market hasn't just doubled the amount of beds, doctors, and nurses.

The important thing that no one talks about when they talk about " the market ", is greed. They are profiting off the suffering of others, and the only thing that matters is that the patients don't die before they can bill them. They make enough beds, nurses and doctors to give the minimal care needed to keep you alive, and that is all. If there were more doctors, they would make less money. Since you are sick enough to be in the E.R., it isn't like you can decide 8 hours is long enough to be waiting for a bed, so why should they worry if you have to wait 12 hours? You are not going anywhere. Why should they pay for another bed? They can just push patients out of the hospital faster, and put a new one in the same bed.

Eventually, they will treat everyone, and not have had to buy any new beds. This is a horrible way to do things, but they are busy on the weekends, and can catch up on Monday when it slows down. Just don't get sick on Sunday, or you might be waiting till Monday on a gurney in a room with 20 other beds, and one light, no doctors or nurses, just waiting for beds to open up. That's the wonderful market!



"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/24/14 5:36 P

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I disagree, but thanks for bumping the thread. emoticon

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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DRAGONCHILDE's Photo DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (56,943)
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2/24/14 5:24 P



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"The situation of not enough hospital beds does not exist if the government is not in control of health care. The market will determine that."

Umm... do you have NO idea how these systems work? there are fewer beds because MORE PEOPLE ARE GETTING TREATED. There is an artificial abundance of "beds" here because there are fewer people seeking health care. Although if you've ever waited in an emergency room for health care because you have no insurance, you'd know exactly how few beds the "market" has determined already exist.

Heather
Writer, mother, wife, and breadwinner. I love to run, but running doesn't love me, so I'm switching to my low-impact bike.

I'm not pregnant, just fat: My blog.

fatnotpregnant.blogspot.com/


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/23/14 12:54 A

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I've been busy, too, doing more research on sugar. I found this video which I thought would be good to see for those people who would like more in-depth information on sugar. The basic chemical difference is covered in the first 10 to 15 minutes.
Here it is:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AJka21yfyE

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/23/14 12:32 A

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Been busy. I just want to point out that here in America, we also have long waits on transplant lists. I was put on the Henry Ford heart transplant list in 2002, after being told I had 6 months to live. Six months later, not a peep.

I am sure that today, with improvements to the strength of my heart, that I am being bumped down the list, so it isn't like I have been waiting 12 years. Other people with greater need have jumped me.

Still, in those first 6 months, I was on oxygen, and was very sick, and nothing happened. We have this idea in America that we go to the hospital, and there is an accident across town, and they run a heart over to us, and replace ours, right before it fails. The truth is, hearts aren't just lying around, and we all wait a long time to get one, if ever.

I am sure a rich patient can get moved up by making a large donation, so it is an even longer wait for the average citizen. I hope that if I ever get a lot worse off again, that a heart becomes available quickly, but I laugh at the idea of superior health care in America. It is another myth we tell ourselves. We have the best health care in the world.. if you are extremely wealthy. The rest of us are part of a system which isn't even ranked in the top 10 worldwide. Quality of life, and even life expectancy aren't that high. We have a high infant mortality rate in the developed world. We have mediocre health care, that covers about 83% of Americans, and we spend 2-3X the money for it, than any other nation.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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2/22/14 6:02 P

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"I... see.... so, if there were one hospital bed available today, and another not coming open until 10 days from now... and you and your doctor felt it was a convenient time to schedule your tummy tuck, while another patient was also in need of that bed due to needing to have a cancerous tumor urgently removed.... it should be up to YOU to decide that your needs came first... because you had the better insurance. And besides, the person probably ate some sugar that caused their cancer anyways, so they can just shut up and wait. Triage be damned, you got there first (or, had the financial ability to buy your first-place spot)."

The situation of not enough hospital beds does not exist if the government is not in control of health care. The market will determine that.
The problem you mention of people
getting care based on their ability to pay is quite common in European countries that have mandatory health care because those people who pay out of pocket or have private insurance about what the government mandates get much better and faster care.

There is no completely fair system.

Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/22/2014 (18:03)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

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JUSTEATREALFOOD's Photo JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 1,251
2/22/14 5:31 P

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I had forgotten all about that Icedemeter, I guess that goes to show how used to it we are here in Canada!

Individually packaged foods and restarant foods are taxed 13% here in Ontario. Vegetables, fruits, fats, meats and that type of stuff isn't taxed.

When I shop by myself I pay no tax. When I shop with my husband we end up paying tax because he likes his "snacks".

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


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I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

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Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


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BUNNYKICKS's Photo BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,305
2/22/14 5:29 P

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I... see.... so, if there were one hospital bed available today, and another not coming open until 10 days from now... and you and your doctor felt it was a convenient time to schedule your tummy tuck, while another patient was also in need of that bed due to needing to have a cancerous tumor urgently removed.... it should be up to YOU to decide that your needs came first... because you had the better insurance. And besides, the person probably ate some sugar that caused their cancer anyways, so they can just shut up and wait. Triage be damned, you got there first (or, had the financial ability to buy your first-place spot).

Got it. I've had enough. I'm out.

Edited by: BUNNYKICKS at: 2/22/2014 (17:31)
Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/22/14 4:58 P

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Just a quick reminder of what I said before: I am not arguing at all against the right of individuals to ruin their own health. It's when someone else's well-being is compromised that I'm concerned.
As much as I see the benefit of the Canadian (and similar) health care systems, I would consider it far too much government interference to tell me when I can get care and how urgent it is. That is something to be decided only between my doctor and my insurance.
Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/22/2014 (17:56)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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ICEDEMETER's Photo ICEDEMETER Posts: 783
2/22/14 4:48 P

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As another Canadian, I am in agreement with BunnyKicks that the "wait times issue" is mostly a non-issue, raised by those who don't understand the "triage" method by which they are determined. I can use myself as an example: when an MRI was ordered for back pain that was annoying but not disabling, the wait was 12 weeks, while the MRI that was ordered when there was suspicion that my colon cancer had metastasized to the spine happened in less than 12 hours. Of course there are going to be cases when someone who was "triaged" as less critical has a sudden turn to critical and is missed, but situations like that happen even in the US to folks who have good insurance.

Realistically, the main attitude that I've come across in Canada towards health care is the same as mine: I have no issue paying for the risky decisions of others, just so long as the health care is there to cover me for the results of my risky decisions. We pay our taxes, just as Americans pay their insurance premiums, for access to care without judgment or discrimination based on the determination of someone else as to "who is at fault" for the disease or injury.

Back to the topic at hand --- you might be interested in the Provincial Sales Tax policies of the Province of Manitoba:

www.gov.mb.ca/finance/taxation/bulletins/0
29.pdf


They don't tax sugar, but they certainly do tax highly processed foods, as well as all restaurant foods. The main exemptions to food taxes are whole foods. Frankly, this tax has had no impact whatsoever on the rates of consumption of processed foods vs. whole foods. There was some controversy when it was implemented, but that died down very quickly and I would suspect that very few residents even think about it now.

Oh, and in the interest of disclosure - I am allergic to all non-caloric sweeteners (stevia being the worst, sugar alcohols next, and the chemical versions as well) and am just as opposed to any taxes or bans on those as I am to any taxes or bans on sugar. However, I am very strongly in favour of clear and obvious labeling on any foods that include any added sweeteners - caloric or not (it would be a whole lot easier for those of us trying to avoid them if they were more clearly listed on the "Nutrition Panel").

Punitive measures, taxes, or prohibitions generally do little to change the attitudes of society - it takes time, education, and positive reinforcement to do that successfully. As more and more individuals reach independent conclusions that a certain idea is "good for them", the weight of public opinion will shift in that direction. Judging by the dramatic increases in availability of organic produce, locally grown produce, grass-fed beef, and free range poultry and pork, I would have to say that there already is a shift in public opinion starting, and it's just a matter of time to see how far the change is going to go.

Start weight: 240 lbs
Goal weight: 155 lbs (reached March 7, 2014)
Revised Goal weight: 150 lbs (reached May 27, 2014)

Afraid of a colonoscopy? Believe me - they are much less frightening than surgery and chemotherapy.

Colonoscopies allow polyps to be removed before they can become cancer, or let cancers be found before they are too widespread. If you are 50 or older, or have any symptoms, please don't let fear stop you from covering your butt.

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Houndlover, there are innumerable ways that people can hurt themselves. Are you planning to make an extensive list and tax everything? The point is that if we want a free society, we can't get into the minutiae of everyone's life. I'll gladly pay extra to preserve that liberty. We all have vices. You are suggesting we pick on one and give the government license to tax it. That's a slippery slope, and again, it smacks of "busy-bodiness" and self-righteousness (as I said, we all have vices)

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2/22/14 1:24 P

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The idea that "Canadians have longer wait times" isn't really.... quite correct. It's more of a different philosophy towards health care in which all of us, rich and poor, are able to access basic services EQUALLY despite our economic standing. Being rich doesn't buy you a pass to "jump the queue." Theoretically. This is a debate that goes on and on and on in Canada - should we allow a "two tier" system whereby "paying for access to services" might be ok in some situations? Some suggest that allowing those with the financial means to pay to jump the line, will put money into the system which will then allow the funding of more equipment and staff, ultimately decreasing wait-times for everyone. Others argue that being rich should not entitle you to special treatment.

The wait times are NOT the result of "making ME pay for YOUR bad health choices." OH I really hate listening to that argument. The whole "you did this to yourself with your bad food choices, why should I pay for your diabetes?" Well... why is it only "food and drug abuse" that gets mentioned? How about people that participate in sports? *I* will never break my femur skiing. Because I choose not to ski or do anything else that is remotely the same risk-factor for a broken bone. So why should I pay when you crash and snap your leg? How about people that have hereditary conditions but choose to have children anyways. *I* don't have xyz-disease running in *my* family, so why should *I* have to pay for the medical care of a child you *knew* was as likely as not, going to have this issue? Sounds pretty ridiculous, no? Pretty dangerous-territory? But it's actually the exact same argument that people use when saying "the taxes I pay shouldn't go to your health care since you chose obesity and are thus personally responsible for any medical issues that developed from that." We ALL make choices and MOST of our choices include some level of risk that we accept personally, that someone else would not have.

Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/22/14 1:03 P

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It depends on the kind of "elective" surgery. Many orthopedic surgeries are considered elective but people are in so much pain they can't walk. Other elective surgeries may not be needed at all. It also depends who decides what's elective and what's not and depends on the country. I know of people who have waited over 6 months for heart surgery and sometimes people die in the meantime.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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2/22/14 12:55 P



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"I believe the main drawback is that people often have huge waiting periods before they can get expensive procedures like surgeries done. This can affect the outcome."

This is actually not usually the case. While it can be true for elective, non-emergency surgery, most places with universal health care have lower wait times and better overall health. Pretty much ALL of the universal health care countries (including the UK and Canada, our closest democratic analogs) have higher rated quality of care, efficiency, and life expectancy. There is pretty much no direct argument.

I have a friend who emigrated here from Canada as a long-term working resident. She said the ONLY difference in her health care? She pays the same (only in premiums instead of taxes), but here she pays more for prescriptions, can't choose her own doctor, and has longer wait times.

In Canada, she pays the same in taxes that she does for premiums, but can walk into any doctor she likes, pays LESS for prescriptions, and has better quality health care overall.

So people have to wait longer for *elective* surgeries. That is a drawback, but given that the option seems to be here to simply not HAVE elective surgeries, else you go bankrupt? I'd much rather wait a few months for an elective surgery than not have it at all.

I haven't had dental care in over a decade. I have very poor oral health, thanks to some long-term issues. But since I can't afford it, I just don't get it. That's the choice most people in America make. It's easy to be against universal health care when you already have insurance.

Edited by: DRAGONCHILDE at: 2/22/2014 (12:57)
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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/22/14 11:26 A

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Russell,
I thought about this some more. I can't speak to Obamacare, haven't studied it enough, you may well be right that there is an income bracket (similar to the donut hole in medicare) of people who can't afford it, time will tell as the country is oberserving.
Your plan (general flat tax, everyone gets free health care) has been tried in other countries. I believe the main drawback is that people often have huge waiting periods before they can get expensive procedures like surgeries done. This can affect the outcome. Maybe it would still be better than what we have. But it also will never happen. Flat tax has been talked about for decades and always has some fans, but never enough.
As far as drugs there is a continuum from free access without any restrictions to making things illegal with high levels of punishment. Taxing and regulating are somewhere in the middle of that. With some drugs I think they are just too dangerous not to regulate at all because they produce states of mind that are similar to severe psychiatric conditions that can make people dangerous to those around them, not just to themselves. Also, children need special protection from access for all those cases when parents are not doing their job.
For instance, even if sugar is not taxed I think legislation to get it out of schools, pre-schools and daycare would be very helpful and cut down early exposure. Right now, parents who don't want their kids exposed to sugar every day in the school cafeteria have no choice except private school or homeschooling which are very expensive options.

Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/22/2014 (11:28)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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2/22/14 9:26 A

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Russell- your post was brilliant. I love the common sense, realistic approach. And rewarding good habits instead of punishing bad- so much more effective! I totally agree with the slippery slope idea where we let the government start taxing one thing because it doesn't matter to us but before long it's something we care about. Like Martin Neimoller's poem "then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."

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2/22/14 2:21 A

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Russell,
interesting perspective on a number of issues, thanks for your explaining your position, too much to respond to on this thread right now but I may send you a spark mail.
I do actually agree with you on decriminalizing substance abuse. I don't have a good answer for how to motivate people who are on hard-core drugs, though. It's true that there are already laws in place to deal with situations where addicts commit crimes, but there are a lot of broken families and a lot of kids suffering because their parents are drug addicts even if they have not committed crimes.
I do agree that it would be preferable to motivate people in a positive way and brainstorm how to best do that.
I linked the other thread before (it may already be on page 2 now) but here it is again:


www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/messageboard.a
sp?imboard=7&imparent=33078848&src=email


Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/21/14 11:05 P

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I think regulation is necessary for quality control. As to drugs, they should make sure the quality is up to a standard. Regulating who gets drugs should be up to your doctor. I am talking about hard drugs too, not just BP medications etc. Drug abuse is an addiction, and if a person is going to be an addict, we should not be criminalizing what they do, but aiming to get them treatment, and having a doctor help make sure they do not overdose.

There are already laws to take care of drug addicts who do crimes like robbery, or murder. If they do these crimes, they will be charged by those laws. If they are not doing any crimes, I do not care if they are doing drugs. That is their personal business. If they run into someone, it would be just like drunk driving. Fines, take away licenses, jail time etc.

I have no problem with govt. setting up treatment centers, or doctors telling addicts how to use the drugs properly, since a huge cost is addicts in the E.R. with overdoses, because they use too much drugs. Another huge cost is that we have made drugs so expensive with prohibition, that there is a lot of crime both from pushers, who want to keep their business, and from addicts, who can't afford their drugs, so they steal to make their money.

For every addict who we look at and call a degenerate, there are 3 who do drugs, and you don't even know about them. They hold a job, and pay for their addiction, and have health care.

The good thing the govt. could do about regulating drugs, is to make sure it is clean. However, I think you are talking about the govt. banning drugs, not regulating their quality. Imagine if you could go down to CVS, and buy your drugs from a pharmacist though. Cheaper, better quality, and no crime, and you could even slip in a pamphlet on drug recovery, and help centers for when they choose to get clean.

Banning anything just makes more people do it, and raises the price, and increases crime.

As far as health care, you lose me on that argument. I am for national health care, with no co-pays, or bills. Everything free. You get sick, you go to a doctor. This divisive tactic of saying .. THAT person is costing YOU, is just class warfare. Poor people hate the rich. The middle class hat the rich and the poor, and the rich are okay with their money, as long as none of the poor, or middle class can get into their gated community. Here in Detroit is has a racial tone. The city ( those black people ) is getting our money.

Put a flat tax for health care, and roll Medicaid, and V.A. into it, and give everyone the same basic health care, and now you aren't responsible for another person's bad habits. We pay for people to have health care. We consider ourselves a Christian nation, but we don't feed the poor, or take care of the sick. Health care in every other country is cheaper than in the U.S., and they don't have 50 million without health care. We already pay enough into health care programs right now to give the same level of health care that people get in Canada to every single citizen in the U.S. Obamacare was a waste, and just an attempt by the govt. to get poor people to have to pay for health care. Like most, they don't actually want to help the poor, they just want to make sure they don't have to pay for them.

Part of the reason that we are so high in health care costs is not that people eat sugar, but that they never get check-ups, and by the time they see a doctor, it is cancer, or heart disease. There are a huge amount of people who signed up for Obamacare, because they were told that they had to, and now when their first bill showed up, they can't pay it, and again do not have health care. You can force someone to sign up for something, but you can't make them pay for something they don't have.

I think that we should try to explain to others what they can do to improve their health, but the idea of trying to manipulate them, or force them to be healthier, so that we can save a buck?.. All I can say is that the idea is offensive. The people who care more about their money than whether people are dying, and who pays for the health care have messed up priorities. take a percentage out of every working person's paycheck. Yes, the rich will pay more dollars, and the poor less, but everyone who is working will pay something. Those not working, have no money to pay.

It all comes down to whether you look at fellow citizens as human being, who have choices, and need food and basic health care, and we have to pay for it, even if it costs some of us more money... OR you think of the poor, or people with bad nutrition habits, as dependents who you can force to do what you want, so that you don't have to pay for THEIR choices.

Once again, I think the idea of getting sugar to drop as part of our diet is a noble cause, and one that would benefit the world.. I just think you need to come at it from a different way. If we were to start by taking away the cost of health care, we could then look at it as a way to lower health care for all, and work towards getting people to be healthier though education, and helping them do so, when they choose to get help.

I think one of the previous posters said something about quitting when her smoking became socially unacceptable, and how she tried with help from others, and on some programs available to help her quit, and now she doesn't quit. She is healthier, and will not add to health care costs, both for herself, or when she get to an age for Medicaire. Coercion ( taxation ) did not make her quit, it just made her poorer. Through personal choice, after feeling like smoking wasn't an acceptable thing, she changed her life for the better, and others were there to help her, and cheer for her when she quit on her own, and keep her from starting back up when she slipped and had a cigarette. It took time but with positive help, she persevered, and we all benefit.

Charging her 5X as much for a pack of cigarettes did nothing, except probably make her cut elsewhere in her budget. I can't imagine how she would have felt if someone had said." You should quit because you are costing me money! "

I think most people know that sugar isn't good for you. They may not be as strident in their desire to remove it from the American diet as you or I are, but when they are eating a pint of Ben & Jerry's while watching American Idol, they don't look over at their husband, and say " Some weirdo on SP told me sugar wasn't a health food!! ".

emoticon They know it is not that good, and a majority of people are trying to limit their intake of sugar, or even high glycemic carbs, or processed foods. Even people not on low carb. So stop and think what would be more likely to achieve your goal.

1 ) Telling people that you are going to tax them, because they are a drain on your pocketbook, and basically a burden

OR

2 ) Noticing that thousands of people a day are trying to become healthier, and looking for ways to improve their success rate, and help them achieve this.

I think the idea of a sugar tax couldn't be possible in a thousand years, but it is a great theoretical idea to discuss, and while some of the ideas scare me, everything should be talked about. I hope to have time to discuss the positive ways to lower sugar consumption, since I believe you have branched off from this one. The biggest problem now is that everyone thinks you want to raise their taxes, and will have trouble keeping the 2-3 threads separate. You will get people yapping at you about this tax idea on all your other threads.

If I again failed to answer your question, send me a Sparkmail. I know we disagree, but I hope you understand where I am coming from, so we can then move forward to better solutions, since as you said ..

" I am not saying that taxing sugar is the best solution at all ". I think the other ideas may be a lot more friendly of an idea to debate, and more will come of them. I think 95 % of the people who responded agreed sugar was bad, but totally disagreed with your idea.

So let's move on to better ideas.


Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 2/21/2014 (23:14)
"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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2/21/14 5:18 P

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I've started a survey, if you like give your input. If you have a better idea for a survey please start another one and/or discuss it here:



www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/messageboard.a
sp?imboard=7&imparent=33114675


Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/21/14 4:34 P

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Russell,
I am not saying that taxing sugar is the best solution at all, I was mostly trying to find out how people would feel about it if it were taxed. Once it was clear that most people would be against a sugar (or other food) tax I started another thread to talk about alternative ways to motivate people in a positive way to give up their sugar habit.

You did not yet responding to this issue:
"I'm not even saying that they are equal to sugar, just that we each may have a different level of tolerance of government stepping in depending on our experience with government."
In other words, when do you think it is necessary for the government to regulate? Do you agree that regulations about drugs are a good idea?

"How does a person consuming sugar take away a freedom/right from you?"

They do if they can't afford their medical bills that are the result of their unhealthy lifestyle. Everyone pays for the people who can't afford their hospital bill because the hospital will spread the cost to everyone who walks in the door."

Will respond later to the other issues.

Birgit



You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/21/14 4:06 P

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Birgit - We agree on most things, but the fact that your argument and mine are the same, coming at it from different ends, is a bit amusing.

I think the difference is, that for me, I am not looking to impose anything on you. I am just against you imposing a tax on something you don't like. You on the other hand are suggesting imposing a tax, and trying to alter the way people live. There is a difference.

If you put a tax on sugar, then people will have to alter their life. You have mandated how they can act, and have removed a freedom, unless one is rich enough to pay the tax. If there is no tax, you can still avoid sugar, and nothing in your life has changed. You have the freedom to not consume sugar, the same as I do.

How does a person consuming sugar take away a freedom/right from you?

We probably disagree on that, but surely you can see that sugar would be the last thing taxed, if they started sin taxing food. Right after they started taxing corn. Everything you consume would be taxed first, and the studies to " prove " that it is all harmful are available. We may disagree with their assumptions,but they are widely accepted.

I do think sugar is addictive, and a major cause of the disease, and obesity in America, and worldwide, but I think that if we were somehow foolish enough to open up our food to sin taxing, just so that we could make us healthier, you would weep from the results.

Red meat, and saturated fats ( butter, coconut oil ), would top the list. A low carb dieter would have to be rich. Next would be eggs, with all that cholesterol. No one would even dispute these as harmful, except the few people who support low carb.

Low carb would die, since no one would be able to afford to eat that way, and that is all that is causing the diet to flourish. More people are doing it, and seeing results. In a generation, no one would eat low carb.

So while I agree with you that sugar is horrible, I disagree that we can tell others what to do, and hope you eventually understand that since you are in the minority, asking the majority to dictate better health isn't in your best interest.

The question would never be should we tax sugar or not, but whether we should tax foods that cause bad health. Which foods do you think would lead that list?

I just wonder, because based on SP threads, that could include eggs, red meat, or even bananas. Hard to stop the list, once you allow it to be started.

That's it for me for now. Just trying to make sure you are thinking this through.





"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/21/14 2:36 P

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I would be against a red meat tax. And a fat tax. Or an alternate sugar tax. Or any type of food tax.

My state is mostly democrat and seems to love taxing people. When a snack tax was proposed. There was a rebellion.

Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 2/21/2014 (14:36)
Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/21/14 2:25 P

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I knew that sugar was carbs and the alternative sugar was not.

I totally agree with Russell.

What if the government decided that everything low carb was unhealthy and therefore regulated and taxed low carb items? That is what we are trying to impart. That we don't want the government interfering in our food decisions.

Your freedom ends where my nose begins. So I cannot dictate that you cannot use Xilitol anymore because it makes me ill. And you cannot tell me that I cannot use sugar anymore because it, adversely effects you..

Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 2/21/2014 (14:32)
Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/21/14 2:19 P

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Russell,
"I think that while well meant, the idea of trying to force someone to do something by coercion is un-American. This includes taxing cigarettes, and alcohol. Once you allow someone to tell you what to do, they never give that power back, they only expand it. This may be grand for someone in the majority, but eventually, you end up in the minority. Then you protest, but it is too late. "
This argument I often agree with on similar issues. In fact it is one reason that I would not choose to live in Germany any more where I grew up. But, there is the other side: The freedom of each individual ends where the freedom of another individual starts. The main disagreement is where to draw that line (on healthcare, gun control, even international politics). Is my freedom to live the life I want to live negatively affected by the choices other people are allowed to make? You may say no in the case of nicotine or alcohol or even marihuana that you would rather not have the government interfere and I may feel the same. But how about heroin or crack cocaine or narcotics that are used as pain meds?
I'm not even saying that they are equal to sugar, just that we each may have a different level of tolerance of government stepping in depending on our experience with government.

As far as the sugar vs. fat issue I was actually thinking that it would be interesting to start a thread with a simple opinion poll of that. (In this case I really hope I'm right and you're wrong emoticon

Birgit


You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/21/14 1:16 P

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Birgit - the evidence is building on sugar. the reason it is building, is that a majority of studies show that fat is the problem, and it is so accepted now, that no one is testing now. While there are loud people talking about sugar now, and we are listening because we agree with them, they are a fraction of the studies, and barely noticed by the majority.

If we had a vote for what we would tax, sugar would be way down the list, and red meat would be on top. We could wait till the scientists came around to our way of thinking before employing the tax, but how long will that be ..100 years? Meanwhile red meat can be called harmful today. You may not believe the studies, but a majority of people do.

Freedom is being allowed to do what we want, even if it is unhealthy, or not currently accepted. Just as we can do low carb without being taxed, people can eat sugar without being taxed. Most of freedom is not freedom to do something, but freedom from someone telling ME how to live.

I think that while well meant, the idea of trying to force someone to do something by coercion is un-American. This includes taxing cigarettes, and alcohol. Once you allow someone to tell you what to do, they never give that power back, they only expand it. This may be grand for someone in the majority, but eventually, you end up in the minority. Then you protest, but it is too late.

We came to America to get away from govt control of our daily lives. Europe had that in plenty. If you disagreed with the govt., or church, you were punished. Ideas were smothered, and you had to do what others told you to. It held back civilization, and science for centuries.

I think that if you replaced sugar, with red meat, and actually stopped and thought.. that taxing red meat is 20X more probable, you might stop and re-consider what you are thinking is a great idea. Precedence has been set with alcohol, and cigarettes, and instead of clamoring for more govt. control, and power, we should huddle silently, and hope they forget that we foolishly allowed them to tax these products, and start taxing others. How about saturated fat? Would that be okay to tax? I bet that would get 2/3rds support today.



"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

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“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/21/14 1:01 P

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For those who did not know, sugar are carbs, most sugar-substitutes aren't or at least not digestible carbs.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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2/21/14 12:58 P

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Cindy,
I think your point about coffee, chocolate, tea etc. that are imported from 3rd world countries is important. I make a point to buy these items only from fair trade certified suppliers.
Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/21/14 12:37 P

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I think there is some concern that the government would tax the wrong foods. That's why I believe it is critical to get a lot more research done on nutrition. The Danish government is the only one that I'm aware of that has tried a fat tax and it failed and has since been abolished.
I'm not a scientist, but I do think that public opinion is changing to the point where soon the majority will agree that sugar is bad for us while fat, even from red meat (unless it's CAFO produced and/or processed), is not. Even now most people realize that some saturated fat (virgin coconut oil, eggs (pastured) is not bad for our health). As more and more people avoid sugar they will experiment with low-carb diets and paleo-type diets and learn the distinction between mass-produced beef and pasture-fed beef which is becoming more widely available in most markets.
I think the reason a sugar tax has not happened yet is because the evidence, while strong, was not yet strong enough to make it a popular decision. I strongly suspect that this will change in the next few years, starting in some European countries, eventually followed by the US, regardless of which political party is in control. This is what happened with cigarettes.
If recent research that connects sugar consumption with diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune diseases, cancer, Alzheimer's, mental health and almost any other chronic disease of the last 100 years is confirmed by more research then at some point the majority may be in favor of the government stepping in to regulate in one way or another , just like with drugs that are currently prescription only or alcohol or cigarettes
Birgit


Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/21/2014 (12:40)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

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ANDILH Posts: 1,204
2/21/14 12:28 P

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Interestingly, sugar substitutes can be poison for people with other certain health conditions. I've been watching them be pushed for a long time, but I just use real sugar less often. I'm not sure how taxing sugar would help people in any way. Sugar is not the only reason people gain weight. In fact, it's been proven that if people cut back on carbs, their weight would be easier to maintain.
I find all sugar substitutes to have a disgusting fake sweet flavor. I would never use them. In addition, so far we know that everything but Stevia (since we haven't tried it) is poisonous to my sister. Most are basically chemicals anyway, so I'm not sure how they're in any way healthier than actual sugar.
I also question how the decision to tax sugar would be made? Would it be similar to the large drink size ban they attempted in NYC? Clearly that didn't work. ID is already required in some places just to buy vanilla extract. Banning or taxing sugar wouldn't make people use it less, it would just create more hardship.

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2/21/14 12:24 P

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This has been in the news a lot lately where I live. I can't support a tax on sugar. I'm dubious about the radical claims as they remind me of the war on fat a few decades ago. Now suddenly the tables are turned on fats.
I would agree that excessive sugar is bad for us. Maybe there are some who just can't tolerate it at all, so they should probably not have it. But for the folks that can moderate it and who don't have a problem with it; I don't see why they should pay a tax.
What I *would* like to see examined is how our over-consumption of various 'luxury' foods like chocolate, coffee and sugar are impinging on the quality of life of people a world away who harvest these things for our collective enjoyment. We live in a pretty messed up world when it comes to food production and most of these things are first world problems. That might sound harsh but many people in 3rd world countries are just struggling to find something to eat (while working to provide for us) and we have the luxury of examining our dependence on rich foods. I think that's where I would put my focus first. Just my 2c.



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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/21/14 12:15 P

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Well, this thread certainly has remained active. emoticon

Personally I don't use sugar, or sugar substitutes. I get under 20 grams of sugar a day from my veggies, and that is it. Most of my food has 0 sugar, naturally.

I do wonder if you would address the one thing I posed before, and Mandieterrier just re-posed to you.

Once the govt. starts deciding to " sin " tax things they find harmful to the public, what if they tax something you like? I think the govt. would be much more likely to tax red meat than sugar, so I don't want that to happen.

How do you control what the govt. taxes, once you allow them to decide what is bad for you? You have to admit that general consensus today is that red meat can cause heart disease, so if govt. had to tax us into greater health, wouldn't red meat be one of the first things taxed? Then butter and lard, so we would use olive oil. Maybe eventually sugar, and salt, but not before a lot of food we consider healthy got "sin " taxed out of existence. At the very least, we would have a huge grocery bill.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

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“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/21/14 12:02 P

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There are so many sugar substitutes. They are all very different from each other.
Stevia comes in several varieties. I have a stevia plant in my garden and harvest and dry the leaves. You can buy stevia as a liquid or a powder and the powder may have other stuff added. Stevia is almost 300 times as sweet as sugar and if you use too much it has a slightly bitter aftertaste. It does not work too well as an only sugar substitute in cooking and baking and is often mixed with erythritol, one of the sugar alcohols. Stevia does work well for slightly sweetening drinks like hot tea and coffee for many people while others notice a bitter taste.
Xylitol is granular like sugar and is about as strong as sugar. While it does not caramelize like sugar but you can add other flavors like vanilla easily and the texture and consistency has worked for all the baking recipes I've tried it in and there are endless low-carb recipes online that use it.
Many people find that they do better reducing the sweet taste gradually over a number of weeks when they first cut out sugar and after a couple of months they use only a small fraction of the sugar substitutes they started with. This takes care of any sweet habits while the chemical effect on the brain is not there any more.
If I use a traditional cookie recipe I will typically replace all the flour with almond flour (low-glycemic) and use 1/4 of the sugar substitute that would be equivalent to the original recipe.
Some people cut out sugar and never feel a need for sugar substitutes.
I never ever put sugar on fresh fruit and things like fresh pineapple I will only have in very small quantities now, it tastes too sweet for me.
There are so many different sugar substitutes on the market that I see no reason to have to use things like aspartame, sucralose (Splenda) ir saccharin.
Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/21/2014 (12:04)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/21/14 10:30 A

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I brought up Xylitol to pose the question. What if someone decided something that you preferred was poison and decided to tax or regulate it? That was the question.

Bunnykicks, I think stevia is positively disgusting. I think all those 0 calorie sweeteners, fake and real are awful. None of them can even remotely pass for sugar.

I also used to douse my fruit in sugar and sweet potatoes. Now I cannot figure out why. It is so wonderful on it's own. Although for sweet potatoes, I still use just a little sugar. Maybe a teaspoon where I used to use tablespoons

Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

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BUNNYKICKS's Photo BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,305
2/21/14 9:33 A

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No, neptune, you wouldn't be able to caramelize a sugar substitute...

I gotta say, I really hate sugar substitutes. I can sort of tolerate Splenda (they bulk it up to make it at least *measure* the same as sugar, even though it's a totally different sort of substance). Most sugar substitutes are fine powders and you use only tiny amounts to add "sweet flavour" to food - they don't serve the same "chemistry" role in baking that sugar does. All they are is "sweet." And yet, they do have a flavour. The flavour of stevia, to my tongue, is nauseatingly, sickly, over-sweet. Thus - I've learned to enjoy my coffee and tea black or with milk-only. I would rather have a conventionally-made "sweet treat" 10x less often, then 10x more but made with stevia.

I also wonder - wouldn't using these sweeteners just perpetuate one's "sweet tooth"? How are you ever supposed to "retrain your tastes" to appreciate less-sweet foods, if you're continually blasting your tastebuds with "sweet"? I use barely any added sugar on any sort of regular basis anymore, BUT I also don't use ANY sugar-substitutes. Now, I eat fresh pineapple or grapefruit straight-up, whereas in the past both would have been doused in brown sugar. Now I find them naturally sweet (particularly the pineapple) and wonder, why the heck was I drowning them in sugar before? The thought of putting added sugar on raw fresh pineapple now makes me cringe - yet, that IS how I used to eat. And I have this feeling I would still want and crave sugared-pineapple if I'd moved to pineapple-with-splenda.

Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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NEPTUNE032701 SparkPoints: (4,663)
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2/21/14 7:39 A

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With all this talk about sugar substitutes I was wondering- do they have a flavor? Obviously they're sweet, but do they have their own distinct characteristics like honey or molasses? Could you caramelize them? Can you make a flavored sweetener out of them (like vanilla sugar or ginger sugar)? I love playing around with flavor and I've been curious about stevia in particular, but I didn't want to buy it only to find it's a one note wonder.

Edited by: NEPTUNE032701 at: 2/21/2014 (08:06)
HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/20/14 6:16 P

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Maybe another thing to consider is that for some people multiple factors would have to come together to give up an addiction. For instance there may be a lot of smokers who quit caffeine in part because of cost increase, in part because of social pressure, in part because they found healthier ways to make themselves feel good. Sometimes these things may even work together. If one family member uses up the family grocery money for cigarettes the other family members may complain. Of course some people probably are addiction hopping when their drug of choice becomes harder to get. For instance I have heard recently that blood sugar goes up when people smoke. I wonder if that's why some people start over-eating sweets when they withdraw nicotine.
Birgit


Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/20/2014 (18:19)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/20/14 5:24 P

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I don't like artificial sweeteners they make me binge. Or even the natural sweeteners that have zero calories. The only thing that satisfies me is sugar.

I have stated before that because of the price of cigarettes and alcohol. I know people that will go without food. Or very little food. So that they can have those two items. So no making something expensive doesn't dampen its appeal.

Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 2/20/2014 (17:25)
Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
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BUNNYKICKS's Photo BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,305
2/20/14 5:13 P

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" whether or not it helps curb consumption of addictive substances by making them expensive"

No, it doesn't.

I used to smoke when cigs were 75 cents a pack. I said I'd quit if they ever hit a dollar. Then I revised it, "if they hit two dollars". Then five. This had a huge economic impact on me. Didn't matter, I was addicted, I would pay whatever the price. Similarly for those addicted to black-market drugs, right - people bankrupt themselves to feed their fix. People turn to crime to come up with the money to pay for their fix. When you are addicted - you will pay for your drug. Nicotine, cocaine.... and if we're going to agree that sugar has "addictive qualities" for some people, you can be certain they will pay for their sugar-fix, too.

So - what did help? For me, nothing really clicked until smoking started becoming socially-unacceptable. When you couldn't smoke at your desk at work, in the university library smoking lounge, on the plane, in the restaurant.... when you had to go OUTSIDE in the rain. And then people wrinkled their nose at you when you came back in, because phew. When second-hand smoke stopped drifting through the environment, cue-ing me to light up, myself. When anti-smoking assistance products started becoming available and affordable. All these things conspired to a) make me feel "uncomfortable" when i lit up - who wants the other moms shooting you dirty-looks when you take a puff on the sidelines of Little Johnny's soccer game? and b) made me feel stronger, like there would be assistance and support to help me STOP, not to constantly tantalize me with reasons to keep consuming the nasty things.

Took me 3 tries, but I'm finally "clean" - and the extra cash on hand is a nice perk. But it was absolutely the LAST motivator.

Ditto with sensible, healthy eating. If our environment and social/cultural expectations were less attached to cheap, fast, and extravagently portioned, it would be a whole lot easier to choose the healthier things, more often.

Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/20/14 4:39 P

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Since you seem to be very sensitive to Xylitol and it is not addictive you can find other sugar-substitutes that work for you.
The whole argument about a tax was whether or not it helps curb consumption of addictive substances by making them expensive, just like with cigarettes.
Xylitol is used by what is probably the majority of low-carb eaters to some degree, my guess would be hundreds of thousands of people, so it's not exactly rare. Because of the price and because of the laxative effect most people use it sparingly and some will mix it with other sweeteners like stevia.
Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/20/2014 (16:39)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/20/14 1:50 P

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I made sure to have less than a serving. I still had a gastric disturbance. (as does any sugar alcohol bother me) Even in small quantities I cannot use it. Unless I want to roll around on the floor writhing in pain.

And even though xylitol has been around a while. I don't believe that it is that widely used (that I know of) So how do we truly know of the side effects?

I am really not trying to be cheeky. Even though it may sound that way.

The point of my questioning is to say. That even though xylitol is upsetting to me. I would not abide any type of government tax or interference on it's consumption. Even though I find it's consumption to be, dare I say, toxic.


emoticon



Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 2/20/2014 (13:58)
Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/20/14 1:03 P

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emoticon An over-consumption of sugar alchols like Xylitol will work as a laxative which is the worst side effects it can have and it's almost immediately obvious, so no danger of hidden diseases developing that you only find out years later like diabetes and heart disease. So I have the choice between diabetes or a little diarrhea if I have way too much, hmm.. tough choice indeed.
Xylitol actually works great to teach people moderation who overeat out of habit without being addictive. After the first time of having a dozen cookies made with Xylitol you probably won't do that again. emoticon

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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MANDIETERRIER1's Photo MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 13,669
2/20/14 11:52 A

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Xylitol gives me and others a stomach ache and other yucky results. Should we tax xylitol, or tell people how much they can consume? Since it causes negative reactions in some?

Made it to my maintenance weight of 125 pounds.

Eat what you like and if someone comments, eat them too

Please read my blog

erinwroteablogyall.blogspot.com/2014
/09/things-that-make-fixing-hair-littl
e.html


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/19/14 9:16 P

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emoticon Yes, I do use something sweet tasting, but mine don't taste nearly as sweet as commercial ones. Over time you can get used to having a very slightly sweet taste. For the macaroons themselves I use unsweetened coconut flakes, some ground almonds, eggs and xylitol or "Just like Sugar Tabletop" (chicory-based) or a mix of stevia and eryhritol. I found that neither eryhritol nor xylitol have much effect on blood sugar for me, but if in doubt test. For the chocolate drizzle I either use 100% dark chocolate melted with a little xylitol added or Lilly's sugar-free chocolate.
I don't use recipes so can't share exact details but there are a ton of recipes and recipe links on the paleo and low-carb team.
Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/19/2014 (21:18)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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BUNNYKICKS's Photo BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,305
2/19/14 7:25 P

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"homemade chocolate-drizzled coconut macaroons without any added sugar"

-----------------

Errrmmmmm what did you put in them then to make them sweet? Had to be something...!

Cuz honestly if they are just dessicated unsweetened coconut with unsweetened chocolate or cocoa powder.... i gotta say, I'll be passing on those lolll

Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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2/19/14 7:09 P

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How about people take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do we want our government to take away all of our freedoms.....?????????
What would be next? Tax all pastas? Tax all candy?? All to high heaven.

Live and let live people....really.

Also - when I read a subject I don't necessarily go and read all the posts. I am just answering the question. Don't mean to get on my soapbox but we do live in a free society to come and go as we please, eat what we want and pursue our happiness. emoticon

Edited by: MCCC75 at: 2/19/2014 (19:14)
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning but anyone can start today and make a new ending." ~ Maria Robinson


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2/19/14 12:53 P

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ha ha ha :)

The best exercise in the world is to bend down and help someone up.


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2/19/14 12:45 P

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emoticon
Partly, I'd scratch salt and fat off the list, make the sign bigger and then add sugar-free treats like my homemade chocolate-drizzled coconut macaroons without any added sugar to the shelf. Yum!

Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 2/19/2014 (13:41)
You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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EELPIE's Photo EELPIE Posts: 2,669
2/19/14 11:59 A

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lol...I just saw this and thought of you. Is this you?
www.passiveaggressivenotes.com/2014/02/18/
sugar-shelf-of-death/


:)

The best exercise in the world is to bend down and help someone up.


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/17/14 10:36 P

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Sorry, didn't mean to confuse things. The oreo study is the more recent one. The saccharin study was done with both saccharin and sugar. Both are interesting for this issue.

I also found it interesting that the other study pretty much reflected what we found here, any additional taxes, even when used for a good purpose, are not at all popular.

Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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BUNNYKICKS's Photo BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,305
2/17/14 10:28 P

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That last article was pretty interesting.... there certainly is a funny disconnect between the perception that "food addiction" exists and the simultaneously-held, public-policy-affecting conviction that obesity is a "choice."

Though I do note the survey results showed "There was very little support for increasing taxes on obesogenic foods."... i think we've seen that here on this thread, too!

Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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BUNNYKICKS's Photo BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,305
2/17/14 10:25 P

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Whaaaa... that's not the Oreo study.... that's "saccharin vs cocaine".

Which I can see the date in the abstract - was from 2007. Since then there's been a 2010 study that shows female rats will take the cocaine.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/1011
15113213.htm


The more current study that I *thought* we were talking about, was the University of Connecticut "oreos vs heroin" study (2013) www.conncoll.edu/news/news-archive/2013/st
udent-faculty-research-suggests-oreos-
can-be-compared-to-drugs-of-abuse-in-l
ab-rats.htm


Goal 1 - break 200 (46 pounds lost)**DONE**
Goal 2 - leave obesity behind (BMI 29.9, at 185#) **DONE**
Goal 3 - BMI = Normal (154# or less)


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/17/14 10:23 P

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I also thought people might find this article interesting:
www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.13
71%2Fjournal.pone.0074836


Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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DRAGONCHILDE's Photo DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (56,943)
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2/17/14 10:21 P



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From that article:

"Thus, absolute levels of striatal dopamine in response to different types of reward may not accurately predict their addictive potential."

Heather
Writer, mother, wife, and breadwinner. I love to run, but running doesn't love me, so I'm switching to my low-impact bike.

I'm not pregnant, just fat: My blog.

fatnotpregnant.blogspot.com/


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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,170
2/17/14 10:10 P

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Here is the link with all the details of the research. This way anyone who likes can read and draw their own conclusions.
www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.actio
n?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjo
urnal.pone.0000698


Birgit

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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