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ALBERTJON SparkPoints: (3,133)
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10/13/13 4:34 A

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OK, I've spent quite a bit of time intermittently the last few days reading about the pros and cons of human consumption of whole wheat/whole grains. I guess I will do a 180〫 as far as my opposition to "Wheat Belly" and a no-grain diet or no whole-wheat diet. No, I am not going to follow such a diet -- and, yes, I am going to consume whole wheat/multi grain items pretty much daily.

But, after reading so much conflicting information on the net, and reading what other SparkPeople have posted, I am of the opinion that instead of both "sides" being wrong, it may be that both are correct. My final thoughts about whole wheat consumption, at least to this point, are that time will tell and that maybe those who cut out wheat and those who continued to consume wheat will find out many years down the road that both diets worked fine. I hope so, anyway.

"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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10/10/13 4:51 P

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I read wheat belly, it was indeed a good read. I also followed the diet for 2 months. Without exercise I got 2 pounds away from my goal weight. As I said, I don't have the will power to cut something out completely, nor the money for a diet that is free from wheat for myself and then a different for my family who would never jump on board. I feel the healthiest diet for ANYONE is a diet that you can stick with, one that becomes your lifestyle, one that is do-able. If you can't stick with it, it will not be a lifestyle, and you will gain the weight back and sometimes even more!

Edited by: CHANGINGFACES27 at: 10/10/2013 (16:55)
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10/8/13 8:53 A

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"A 2007 study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that obese men and women with metabolic syndrome (poor cholesterol, large waist size, etc.) all lost weight and improved their health-risk factors when they dieted. But those who dieted by including more whole grains, as opposed to refined grains, lost more belly fat." -- Martica Heaner, M.A., M.Ed., for MSN Health & Fitness

Here is a good read for those who suggested that "Wheat Belly" is a good read.

www.aaccnet.org/publications/plexus/cfw/pa
stissues/2012/OpenDocuments/CFW-57-4-0
177.pdf


"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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SIMONEKP's Photo SIMONEKP Posts: 2,481
10/6/13 5:31 P

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everyone has to find what works for them

Simone

"Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish." - John Quincy Adams

No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everyone on the couch!
Source: unknown



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10/6/13 4:05 P

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To each their own......wish everyone the best of luck, we are here to be healthier and that is what we are all trying to do!

Edited by: CHANGINGFACES27 at: 10/6/2013 (16:13)
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10/6/13 9:23 A

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BRIANLIEBERTH: One thing all of us definitely agree about is that if the diets we are following are making us healthy, then we should stick with them. I definitely believe if a Paleo diet or low-carb diet or no-grain diet or high-protein diet is keeping someone healthy, it would be foolish for that person to not follow it.

My problem is that some vulnerable/gullible/impressionable people are often hoodwinked into embarking upon certain avenues of "healthy" eating that are actually not healthy for them at all. I would encourage anyone/everyone who wants to begin some sort of diet such as Adkins or Vegetarian or High-fat to do a lot of research, confer with a doctor, and discuss with others who are following that diet.

It may very well be that there are several diets that are healthy. I feel my general diet of fruits, legumes, whole grains, vegetables, lean meat and fish, nuts, seeds, dairy, etc is very healthy; and I recommend it to anyone not allergic to any of those things.



"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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BRIANLIEBERTH's Photo BRIANLIEBERTH Posts: 560
10/6/13 9:12 A

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I see how you dismiss "popular books" as pseudoscience. Unfortunately the books I cited are written by researcher citing science for every suggestion made. As for every the preponderance of data being on the side of low fat high grain, here is some unscientific but relevant information. Since we have started down the low fat path obesity, and type 2 diabetes has gone to almost epidemic proportions. I know all the come backs about not moving as much as in the past and while that is true no one can our exercise a bad diet.

Now to be totally forthcoming, my biggest problem with our current diets is not with grains but is with sugar, but I see such on these boards that if someone reads some research that doesn't jibe with their dogma that they have than it has to be false or just a popular book. Once again if people follow the low fat high carb diets and it makes them healthy I congratulate them, I do find it a bit off putting though that things that have made others healthier is dismissed and considered pseudoscience.

Today's quote:
Do or do not do; there is no try

--Yoda


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10/5/13 2:26 P

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I agree that people can eat whatever they choose and what someone chooses to eat is none of my business. However, what I do not like is how people try to turn their dietary choices into something that they are not--e.g. posting on here that "research shows" that what they are doing is what's considered the best when this is not the case, citing books by popular authors and calling these "proof" or saying that the authors of these books have done studies, done research or are summarizing the research. Why? Because none of this is true. The actual research (meaning the overwhelming majority of peer reviewed studies done at reputable institutions and published in reputable, peer-reviewed journals) supports what Spark People advocates--a balanced diet comprised of about 50% carbs, 30% fat and 20% protein and which includes whole grains. If you disagree with the research, that's your right. If you choose not to follow the Spark People recommendations, that's your choice. But...

Taking pseudoscience or something from a popular book or even taking the few studies which disagree with all the others and citing these things as proof of anything misleads and confuses people. That's not what we should be doing here. But, that's what's going on. Post after post about how low carb is best, grains are evil, coconut oil is a healthy fat, eating a bunch of saturated fat is healthy, etc. etc. Even when these sort of posts don't state that "research shows" these things to be true, they state it like it's just a known fact. People read this stuff and think that, because they see it posted here, that this is what Spark People advocates. But, it's not. Not at all. It's confusing and misleading. Personally, I think it's really sad that this is what's going on.





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10/5/13 1:47 P

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I agree with the last poster. So some of us choose not to eat wheat. Why on earth do you care what I eat? Who cares what the reason is? I happen to have a ravenous diet when I eat certain foods. I really don't understand the point of arguing on these boards.

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Live the life you have imagined.”
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10/5/13 1:33 P

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I am not avoiding any food group, though I do feel that the wheat and "healthy whole grains" of today are not the same as they once were. People are arguing that Doctors who are selling books are just trying to make money, and in turn saying people think doctor's and scientists are wrong. One thing that should be brought to everyone's attention is that if scientists and doctors were to say "wheat is bad for you," guess what would happen? Our economy would crumble, because the fact of the matter is wheat and grains are a HUGE part of our Country. Why would they tell us something when that would mean that we would avoid it and no longer buy the products that are a big part of keeping our Country afloat? Not to mention that the obesity epidemic happened to happen when they added more grains to the food pyramid and the cheerios commercials kicked on everyday. Just saying, really, you can find anything you want about anything you want. Your always going to find good and bad about most foods, why? Because our food industry is severely corrupt by greed. Not looking to argue, it's just a little insight, besides the Doctors that are selling those books, have real studies done on real people, and they are already very wealthy people.Who is to say that they didn't add more servings for grains to the food pyramid because it would bring in more $$$.The only reason why I don't avoid wheat is because I can't completely change my lifestyle in a home with a bunch of wheat eaters LOL. I just don't have the self control or will power for it. I do believe however that wheat was once healthy, I just think it has been tampered with too much. A lot of people on here are starting to get pretty mean about this grain vs. no grain and I really don't understand. Who cares what one eats? You eat what you want, I eat what I want, she eats what she wants, and he eats what he wants. "At the end of the game, the King and the Pawn go into the same box." This is a place for support, not bashing, and trashing, Jeez

Edited by: CHANGINGFACES27 at: 10/5/2013 (13:58)
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10/5/13 1:15 P

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In the past I had some whole wheat bread that was dark and heavy, hard to chew and tasted well, like cardboard. When I tried some of the new to me whole bagel thins and sandwich thins I was pleasantly surprised by how good they taste. They are also filling so that even though they are good because they are filling I don't crave the whole package. After one I am satisfied and the fact that the whole grain is so good for me is a real bonus!

ALBERTJON SparkPoints: (3,133)
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10/5/13 11:43 A

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CMCOLE: "When you research with a bias, you'll find what you seek....
Usually the trained professionals you see have been trained in establishments that simply keep passing on the same information."

I think that is a valid point.

Another valid point is that diet fads often get started by people who claim to have used some scientific basis for their beliefs, but who have only have done minimal research and are more interested in making money and acquiring fame than they are in actually helping people live healthier lives.

I find it more than amazing how gullible many people really are who want to lose weight or want to eat healthy. Someone, for example, who advocates a cabbage diet or a no grain diet can make headlines by an article listed on the Net or by an interview on a morning talk show, and suddenly there are converts about the country claiming miraculous results in weight loss or sudden improved health.

There is far too much misinformation and silliness in many of the current "diets" being touted; it's enough to make one want to go out and buy some pork ribs and a six-pack and watch a college football game.

Edited by: ALBERTJON at: 10/5/2013 (11:44)
"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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10/5/13 11:21 A

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Processing, in large part, is what led me to Spark. In particular, I am attempting to develop shelf stable backpacking meals without all of the sodium, preservatives, dyes, etc. Also, I personally process a huge amount of my diet. Canning meats and vegetables harvested from my "garden" is mandatory to survive the winter, else I purchase it from some other processor. I also dehydrate and smoke certain items.

I honestly think I have reached the point that I could be self sustaining, but the variety would suffer immensely. I offer a few random thoughts:


Human agricultural society consolidated peoples. Just as with any other animal population, or plant for that matter, a high populous in relatively small area lends itself to an increase in the probability of disease.

Carbs are not a demon, a sedentary lifestyle coupled with an abundance of carbs is. And, that includes sugar. Just try to ingest 6000 Calories in a day without using a few carbohydrates. Carbs are essential to replenishing glycogen stores during, and immediately after, strenuous activity. I work, and play, hard.

There is no one answer, your diet needs to be tuned to your lifestyle. In my short time here, I see that as a pervasive theme.

The "mad scientists" doing all of this processing in lab coats sponsored by the huge agriculture/food industry have provided many nutrients to a general population that could not do without. We would all have less neighbors if it weren't for this industry, would that be a good thing?

There is no bad food, only bad cooks.


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10/5/13 10:24 A

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Absolutely. I'm fairly green around the gills still when it comes to my nutritional research. You've given me some ideas to research further. Thank you and best to you as well. :)

Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 10/5/2013 (10:24)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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10/5/13 9:54 A

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Who was arguing CMCole? I was enjoying our conversation Jenni; I sincerely hope you were as well. Again, I hope you all enjoy your days. GB :)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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ERIN1957's Photo ERIN1957 SparkPoints: (67,951)
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10/5/13 9:43 A

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Well stated CMCOLE.

MICHELLEXXXX, good on you! Thanks!

Walk through your journey with a loving open heart and as well mind. Treat others as you would like to be treated.






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10/5/13 9:39 A

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It's all good. :) I hope you enjoy your day. God bless.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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10/5/13 9:31 A

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I apologize if this is coming off as a line of interrogation, lol :)
It's not my business what other people put on their plate, or don't put in this case. I'm not trying to convince you to eat them. I'm just genuinely curious why some people opt out of grains/gluten/wheat (aside from obvious allergies/sensitivities).


Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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10/5/13 9:29 A

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I think it is simple; to process something requires more work. Add to that the fact that those things requiring processing also provide less nutrients and are more caloric than simply picking something right out of the garden... I feel grateful for vegetables and fruits. I also think colorful fruits and veggies taste better than grains. To each his own.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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CMCOLE's Photo CMCOLE Posts: 2,667
10/5/13 9:26 A

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I'm not going to jump into the midst of an argument, but I'm sure, for any given subject (whether it's food or something else), you can find both sides of it, given the research.

When you research with a bias, you'll find what you seek.

That's not to say you've done that; just making the point that there are pros and cons against most food choices, even when they have been considered healthy by standards set by the government or dietitians, or whatever. Usually the trained professionals you see have been trained in establishments that simply keep passing on the same information.

Like my own menu, things change and improve, but sometimes training facilities do not keep pace.

WHOLENEWME79's Photo WHOLENEWME79 Posts: 922
10/5/13 9:24 A

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I don't think the argument really supports your assertion, Michelle. You multiply by 7 and they are comparable, save for potassium. But that is *700 grams* of kale. I go through kale phases, but 700 grams in a day? Not likely. And not likely for the majority of the population, healthy or not. 100 grams is 3.54 ounces of wheat flour, and I can consume on a daily, and usually do, in the form of breads and pasta, and so can most people.

If you want people to be informed, you need to provide all the information. Eat 700 grams of kale a day and you can eliminate one serving of whole grain bread and one serving whole grain pasta!

Kale
Calories: 50 - 350
Fat: 1g - 7
Sat fat: 0g - 0
Sodium: 43mg - 301
Potassium: 329mg - 2303
Total carbs: 10g- 70
Fiber: 2g - 14
Protein: 3g - 21
Iron: 9% DV - 63
Calcium 14% DV - 98
B-6: 15% DV - 105
Magnesium: 11% DV - 77

Whole grain wheat flour:
Calories: 339
Fat: 2g
Sat fat: 1g
Sodium: 5mg
Potassium: 431mg
Total carbs: 73g
Fiber: 12g
Protein: 14g
Iron: 22% DV
Calcium 3% DV
B-6: 20% DV
Magnesium: 36% DV

Now, I still think that demonizing grains is an unfair prejudice. I know you low-carb supporters are not going to be swayed, no matter what evidence is presented. That is fine, I don't really care one way or another, as long as you actually present comparable evidence.

My position is the quality of the foods that is consumed. In fact, had you read through my original post, I also made the assertion that we should be arguing processing of foods and how it impacts the nutritional content, rather than demonizing any one particular food group.

Edited by: WHOLENEWME79 at: 10/5/2013 (09:25)
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10/5/13 9:18 A

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I find this interesting; my doctor (Mayo Clinic) has taken me off of grains and I am not allergic. Just saying, there is a lot more to this discussion, than what we interpret while we research or look for solutions to what every motivates us.

Just do what you and your health care provide decide, hopefully they are educated enough to give you proper advice. It is an individual need and in some cases want.

Not worth fighting over, there are so many bigger issues out there, then trying to be right or convince others one way is the only way. Or insulting another's intelligences with thinking or assume we are idiots in our own health.

Edited by: ERIN1957 at: 10/5/2013 (09:38)
Walk through your journey with a loving open heart and as well mind. Treat others as you would like to be treated.






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10/5/13 9:01 A

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What are your thoughts on the processing (e.g., cracked, crushed, rolled, extruded, and/or cooked) of the grain and how it effects health?



Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 10/5/2013 (09:31)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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10/5/13 8:42 A

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Jenni says, "That is true. We could still process it. "
I think you meant "We can still consume meat without processing it." I just want to make sure people are correctly informed.

Fire has the primary capabilities of providing both heat and light. It seems that there is debate as to how much later in history it was used for cooking. Yet man survived and progressed at a steady pace both before and after cooking, which leads me to believe nutrients were being absorbed.
Ironically, one of the most identifiable glitches in the human timeline is the agricultural revolution. When grains began becoming a dietary staple, disease occurrence increased. Perhaps just a coincidence.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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10/5/13 8:16 A

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That is true. We could still process the nutrients. It just put us at higher risk to bacterial infections and parasites. It just made it safer to consume. Fish have a relatively low risk of bacterial infections compared to other meats due to their low blood temperatures. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of safety and how a food processes through the body (for example, having gastrointestinal issues when one eats raw veg or legumes) as opposed to nutrient absorption.

There is evidence of controlled fires 690,000 to 790,000 years ago. I guess how recent you would consider it, would be relative.



Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 10/5/2013 (08:26)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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10/5/13 8:06 A

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Jenni "b) Does having to alter the state of a food in order to properly digest automatically make it bad for you? Humans cannot properly process raw meats unless it is cooked. It wasn't until early human ancestors discovered the skill of making fire that we were even able to eat most meats."

I was unaware of this. I eat a lot of raw fish and sea food; are you saying I don't process any of those nutrients and amino acids? I would love to see where you learned this info as it was somehow never taught to me. Raw meat has been eaten by many animals for many centuries. Cooking is only a recent practice brought on to destroy diseases and parasites.

Jenni, " We most certainly are that at 7 billion! Without grains it would be *impossible* to feed our planet as we are already struggling now."

I would say this is largely due to maldistribution as opposed to lack of food.

Either way, I digress. I wish everyone the best of health and share what I have found helpful. I support any choice that brings healthy, happy, loving results. To each his own.

Edited by: MICHELLEXXXX at: 10/5/2013 (08:20)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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10/5/13 7:44 A

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I'm not sure that anyone was arguing that vegetables don't provide more nutritional density than grains.

A few thoughts...

a) Isn't there are a point of diminishing returns when it comes to vitamins/minerals? I tend to not only reach but far surpass my recommended requirements for micronutrients with grains in my diet.

b) Does having to alter the state of a food in order to properly digest automatically make it bad for you? Humans cannot properly process raw meats unless it is cooked. It wasn't until early human ancestors discovered the skill of making fire that we were even able to eat most meats.

I do feel like the current gov't recommendations for grain intake is rather higher than it should be. I probably only eat an average of 2-4 grain servings per day, not the recommended 6-7 servings. There is however, a method to their madness. Grains are the most cost effective and easiest staple to grow in mass quantities which is ideal for feeding large populations of people. We most certainly are that at 7 billion! Without grains it would be *impossible* to feed our planet as we are already struggling now.

I tend to be a middle of the road type-
No, I don't believe grains are the most nutrient dense staple. It's obvious vegetables surpass them. Vegetables far surpass all other food groups.
Do I agree it would be optimal to include more veg/fruit over grains? Certainly.

I do not agree that it is necessary to cut grains out of ones diet to replace with more veg/fruit for optimal health any more than it is necessary to cut out legumes in place of more veg. I do not agree that grains/wheat are the poison that certain disingenuous "doctors" driven by book sales make them out to be. Since the beginning of recorded history we've had these snake-oil types, it's not hard to spot them.

Apparently, giving up wheat/gluten these days is the miracle drug to cure all ailments. Big claims require big proof.... we often tell people if there were a pill that actually worked to cure obesity, we'd all know about it and we'd all be taking it. It wouldn't be some undisclosed knowledge shared by only a few. I am highly skeptical of any fringe "doctor" trying to sell me these miracle cures, they simply don't exist.

Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 10/5/2013 (08:02)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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Thank you Wholenewme emoticon . That confirms what I thought/stated. If calories are made equal on those examples, veggies far surpass the grains in nutrients.
I do see what you are saying. Grains, once processed (because a grain cant be digested by the human digestive tract unless it is processed), do provide some nutrients. Personally, I just feel that if something must be processed in order for us to even digest it, that says something. And even once it is processed, it still doesn't hold a candle to any simple unprocessed veggie. Just my thoughts; I wish everyone the best in their own choices. :)
I agree that a person can certainly lose weight with grains in their diet, they will just never get nearly the same amount of nutrients to fuel the body's cells.

from the examples you listed:

Whole grain wheat flour:
Calories: 339
Fat: 2g
Sat fat: 1g
Sodium: 5mg
Potassium: 431mg
Total carbs: 73g
Fiber: 12g
Protein: 14g
Iron: 22% DV
Calcium 3% DV
B-6: 20% DV
Magnesium: 36% DV
'

Kale 350 cal, multiply all nutrients listed by 7. Fiber 14 grams. Potassium 2100 mg. Magnesium 77%. etc.

Edited by: MICHELLEXXXX at: 10/5/2013 (03:13)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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WHOLENEWME79's Photo WHOLENEWME79 Posts: 922
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I referred to them as "great sources", actually, because we all know that there are better sources of some nutrients, vitamins, and minerals.

I am glad to provide the information. This is all from nutritiondata.com or google and is based on 100 grams and unprepared/raw. Volume is used because it is easier for me while I am at work. If you want to do the 'calorie per calorie' calculations, feel free to do so.

Whole grain wheat flour:

Calories: 339
Fat: 2g
Sat fat: 1g
Sodium: 5mg
Potassium: 431mg
Total carbs: 73g
Fiber: 12g
Protein: 14g
Iron: 22% DV
Calcium 3% DV
B-6: 20% DV
Magnesium: 36% DV

Edamame

Calories: 110
Fat: 5g
Sat fat: 1g
Sodium: 6mg
Potassium: 676mg
Total carbs: 10g
Fiber: 5g
Protein: 10g
Iron: 12% DV
Calcium 6% DV
B-6: 5% DV
Magnesium: 16% DV

Kale

Calories: 50
Fat: 1g
Sat fat: 0g
Sodium: 43mg
Potassium: 329mg
Total carbs: 10g
Fiber: 2g
Protein: 3g
Iron: 9% DV
Calcium 14% DV
B-6: 15% DV
Magnesium: 11% DV

Strawberries

Calories: 32
Fat: 0g
Sat fat: 0g
Sodium: 1mg
Potassium: 153mg
Total carbs: 8g
Fiber: 2g
Protein: 1g
Iron: 2% DV
Calcium 1% DV
B-6: 0% DV
Magnesium: 3% DV

If you want more, feel free to use the same resources I did.

There are no elevators in the house of success.
H. H. Vreeland

You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it- Margaret Thatcher


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Wholenewme,
To the best of my knowledge, Nearly any veggie surpasses nearly any grain in fiber, potassium, protein, iron, and magnesium; calorie per calorie. Thereby, I'm confused by your referral to them as excellent sources.
Feel free to correct me if you find an example where I am incorrect. I want true info to be shared so that people can be correctly guided.

Edited by: MICHELLEXXXX at: 10/4/2013 (17:19)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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Hi everyone

It's fine if you want to have a civil discussion about this, but the personal attacks need to stop if the thread is to continue.

Thank you,

Coach Jen

"You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing that we call "failure" is not the falling down but the staying down." Mary Pickford

"No matter how slow you go, you are still lapping everybody on the couch."
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10/4/13 3:44 P

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WHOLENEWME79: Well-stated! I concur.

"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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I concur JERF and Jenni. I also experienced a significant reduction in bodyfat with grain and sugar elimination.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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JENNILACEY/JUSTEATREALFOOD/ALBERTJON, ET AL: I really do think argumentative discussions can be both informative and entertaining. Even heated ones. I admire people who take the time to response and give a detailed argument based on their research and beliefs. I have found myself engaged in several argumentative discussions about such things as:
(1) should one be careful of eating too many egg yolks
(2) is drinking 100% fruit juice actually healthy
(3) is heavy lifting necessary for most people
(4) does cardio help a person lose weight better than strength-training
(5) is a low-carb diet actually healthy
(6) should a person actually cut back on consuming saturated fats
(7) etc, etc, etc.

I have changed some of my stands on certain issues based upon as careful research as I could do. I think it can be fruitful to disagree, even if one doesn't change his/her stand. One complaint I would have is that some people won't at least examine the other side of an argument.

I definitely changed my mind about drinking fruit juice, because I do think one can get an unwanted "sugar spike." Instead of drinking apple juice, which I use to drink almost daily, I now eat a lot of apples. I use to only eat egg whites (when I started my weight loss journey), then switched to eating eggs, yolks and all, regularly, to now only eating a 2-4 at most a week. I have not made up my mind about the cholesterol in egg yolks and how it related to cholesterol in the blood. {No, please no more "expert" sources needed; I have been researching this topic intermittently for the last 2-3 years. I have found "experts" on both sides of the issue.}

My point is that if we keep an open mind, examine both (or more) sides of an issue, we can educate ourselves.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their views.

"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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10/4/13 3:26 P

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I strongly believe in the power of whole grains. They are great sources of fiber, potassium, protein, iron and magnesium.

Books like Wheat Belly use anecdotal evidence, or cite studies that have used questionable methods. The person who wrote it came under fire for misrepresenting research to further his opinion of the impact of wheat and grains in diet. He is a cardiologist, not a registered dietician.

What we should be debating is the quality of the products people consume. There is a vast different between wonder bread and whole wheat bread. There is a huge difference between bologna and a chicken breast. Why make grains themselves out to be a bad thing? They have been a diet staple for centuries and the obesity epidemic didn't start until the 20th century when overly processed "convenience foods" hit the market.

I don't expect to sway anyone to my POV, but why demonize something like wheat? Maybe eating habits, refined and processed foods, and chemicals would be a better target for your ire.

Edited by: WHOLENEWME79 at: 10/4/2013 (15:27)
There are no elevators in the house of success.
H. H. Vreeland

You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it- Margaret Thatcher


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10/4/13 2:47 P

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Right back at you babe. Perhaps, if this was the first time you tried to bully me I might let you get away with it. But it's not. It's great you lost weight but that doesn't make you better than other people.

My apologies to the.OP.

Edited by: JUSTEATREALFOOD at: 10/4/2013 (15:17)
JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

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36 years old
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Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


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"Jenni - My personal stalker :) Cheers!"

You give yourself far too much credit, my dear. I am just interested in this topic and debating with the opposition is a good way of learning both sides of the argument. I will try to remember in the future that this is a sensitive topic for you that drives you to character assassination and not engage....

Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 10/4/2013 (14:45)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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10/4/13 2:32 P

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Jenni - My personal stalker :) Cheers!

My point was you can have all those good stats whether you eat wheat or not. But thanks for trying to put words into my mouth.

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids

Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi


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10/4/13 2:17 P

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I've been keeping track of my endurance, and generally do better after eating whole grains. I don't get any negative symptoms from eating it either. of course, I come from a long line of wheat farmers - so maybe I am just loyal LOL.

All kidding aside, I feel like moderation is key. I have oatmeal every morning. This morning I had 1/4 cup of steel cut oats, cooked in water, and then mixed with 1/2 c strawberries, 1 T flax seed and 1/4 c. of whole milk. Protein, carbs and fat all in one - and I had a rocking run this morning. (Albiet, very damp since it poured for the last two miles!).

This afternoon I had some whole wheat macaroni, mixed with roasted butternut squash, cheddar cheese, and homemade chorico sausage. Yum - talk about comfort food on this cold/rainy fall day.

I may just be rambling, but I couldn't imagine life without grains. Barley, rice, wheatberries, they are all delicious. They are also relatively inexpensive if you get them in the bulk foods bin of whole foods. But to each his own.

And whole wheat pasta, at least the 365 (whole foods) brand has only one ingredient: 100% organic durum whole wheat flour. I wouldn't call that highly processed (I too, try to avoid processed foods).

Edited by: LEKSIPATSY at: 10/4/2013 (14:18)

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JERF

"And I have been eating no wheat and limited grains for 2 years and I've lost excess body fat. I am the strongest I've ever been in my life. My blood pressure is low to almost professional athlete level. My blood sugars are low. My cholesterol is optimal and I too have regular BM's."

In the last year I have drastically lowered my body fat % from 33% to 19%. I am the strongest I've been in my entire life. My blood pressured IS as low as a professional athlete (and my children), my RHR has decreased from 70-80 bpm to 50 bpm. My cholesterol and all my blood work is cleaner than a whistle, no medical issues whatsoever and *ahem* very regular BM's and I eat wheat and whole grains regularly.

I am not trying to compete (btw, congrats on your health improvements), just making a point for the sake of debate or pose a question, rather. How do you *know* that it was indeed giving up wheat/whole grains that led to these improvements in your health? Was giving up these foods the only changes you've made in the last 2 years? Personally, I would credit many of my health improvements to a combination of weight loss, increased fitness (cardio/ST/activity level) and improving the overall quality of my diet.

We are not living in a biosphere with controlled variables here. How can one possibly determine they are not making the logical fallacy of correlation = causation?

Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 10/4/2013 (14:20)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
w-test.html


"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. It doesn't happen, what does happen is you get results. Lifting Barbie weights does nothing but waste time.


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10/4/13 1:20 P

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Eat lots and lots of vegetables and fruits.
Exercise regularly, strength and cardio.
Don't smoke.
Limit alcohol.

And...

Eat sparingly processed meats
Eat sparingly foods containing refined sugar
Drink plenty of water
Eat legumes regularly

But most of all, hope you have good genetics!!!!!!!!!!!



"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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10/4/13 12:55 P

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And I have been eating no wheat and limited grains for 2 years and I've lost excess body fat. I am the strongest I've ever been in my life. My blood pressure is low to almost professional athlete level. My blood sugars are low. My cholesterol is optimal and I too have regular BM's.

We are all different, what is right for you isn't right for everyone.

Some keys to longevity I hope we can agree on.

Eat lots and lots of vegetables and fruits.
Exercise regularly, strength and cardio.
Don't smoke.
Limit alcohol.


Edited by: JUSTEATREALFOOD at: 10/4/2013 (12:56)
JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids

Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi


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10/4/13 11:36 A

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JUSTEATREALFOOD: "Processed foods should be limited or eliminated for optimal nutrition." If you are including products made from whole wheat flour and whole grains, then, yes, we disagree. And that's OK with me, too, since we all do our own research, make our own decisions, and live with the results. For almost 5 years, I have been eating whole wheat and/or whole grains in some form or another daily : result, my blood pressure, cholesterol, and triglycerides are all lower. My BM are completely regular and I am never constipated.
=================================================

"Grains, especially whole grains, are an essential part of a healthy diet....such as whole wheat in bread." Mayo Clinic

"Want to statistically reduce your risk of death from all causes (in other words, your total mortality rate) by 15% just by making one dietary change? Choose whole grains whenever you can."

"After analyzing data from more than 15,000 people aged 45-65, researchers from the University of Minnesota School of Public Health found that as whole-grain intake went up, total mortality (the rate of death from all causes) went down....whole wheat flour." -- Elaine Magee, MPH, RD WebMD

"If you select 100% whole wheat products, however, the bran and the germ of the wheat will remain in your meals, and the health benefits will be impressive! Our food ranking qualified whole wheat (in its original non-enriched form) as a very good source of dietary fiber and manganese, and as a good source of magnesium."

"In many studies, eating whole grains, such as whole wheat, has been linked to protection against atherosclerosis, ischemic stroke, diabetes, insulin resistance, obesity, and premature death. A new study and accompanying editorial, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition explains the likely reasons behind these findings and recommends at least 3 servings of whole grains should be eaten daily." -- World's Healthiest Foods

"Most studies, including some from several different Harvard teams, show a connection between eating whole grains and better health." -- Harvard Education

"A diet high in whole grain foods is associated with a significantly lower risk of developing cardiovascular disease, including heart disease and stroke, according to an analysis conducted by researchers at Wake Forest University School of Medicine." -- Science Daily

"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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10/4/13 10:32 A

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That's not what I meant. They aren't the big deal people make them out to be whether you choose eat them or not. They are certainly not a health food. Vegetables and fruit will forever be superior to grains in terms of nutritional content. Grains even the healthy whole kind are a highly processed food, unless of course you are buying wheat kernels and milling it yourself. Processed foods should be limited or eliminated for optimal nutrition. Granted that is not always possible or practical but it is the gold standard for optimal nutrition.


Clearly we disagree and that's okay with me :)

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids

Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi


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10/4/13 10:03 A

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JUSTEATREALFOOD: "Most of the people I know who have taken the time to research their health have come to the realization that grains, even healthy whole grains, aren't as important as they've been touted as being."

So you are implying that people who believe eating whole grains, such as whole wheat, haven't taken the time to research their health? I've been researching my health for the last five years. And I find it interesting that so many lay people think they know so much more than doctors, scientists, and health professionals who believe whole grains should be part of a healthy dietary plan.

I agree that each of us is going to choose a dietary plan that we feel will be most healthy for us. If someone wants to go vegetarian, Paleo, Adkins, low-carb, high-protein, etc., so be it. But, in my opinion, there are people making money by coming up with some "sky is falling" misinformation and finding too many gullible people to buy their books.

It is not going to be the consumption of whole grains or whole wheat that hurries the normal person's death (i. e. "normal" being not allergic to wheat or other grains). Eating too much processed food, drinking too many alcoholic beverages, using tobacco products, taking illegal drugs, eating too many refined sugar foods, not eating enough fruits and vegetables, etc., etc is what is shortening the life span of people in this country. Eliminating whole wheat and other whole grains from our diet will in no way, in my opinion (based on extensive researching), improve our life expectancy.



"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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10/4/13 7:57 A

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I agree with CHEETARA79. I love my grains as well and include them into my diet on a regular basis.

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10/4/13 7:54 A

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Carrienign - I actually think it's the exact opposite. Most of the people I know who have taken the time to research their health have come to the realization that grains, even healthy whole grains, aren't as important as they've been touted as being. Refined whole grain is probably better than refined white grains if prepared properly but when it's not it can actually be quite harmful to the body.

I also think most of the people who have researched health and noticed health improvements after minimizing or eliminating grains might be more than a little offended at your insinuation that they are uneducated. I know I am.

ETA: I don't understand the need to name call about this. Some people choose not to eat grains. Why the degradation?

Edited by: JUSTEATREALFOOD at: 10/4/2013 (08:13)
JERF - Just Eat Real Food


I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids

Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

- Vince Lombardi


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10/4/13 7:49 A

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I love my grains and see no reason to cut them out of my diet, nor any other food group. Everything in moderation.

You don't have to eat the whole thing.
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10/4/13 4:30 A

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I personally feel much better without grains in my diet.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16


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I think cutting any whole good group out, other than for medical necesity, is a totally bogus way of trying to be healthier or lose weight. I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of education.

“Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle.”
--Christian D. Larson


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I totally agree with you, BRIANLIEBERTH. I am a total low carber and have been now for 5 months. Humans don't need grains or carbs for the most part. I also eat moderate/high protein and moderate fat and I feel so much healthier. I am also a fan of Gary Taubes and so is the doctor who put me on this way of eating. I do hang out on a low carb chat board but came to Spark People to track my weight loss and macros.

Edited by: MOM2AANDE at: 10/4/2013 (00:23)
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My problem with the food holy wars we seem to get into in our society on grain vs no grain, low fat vs low carb is that we have an establishment that believes that there is only one single way of eating that 365 million people in the US alone must follow or be unhealthy.

There are a lot of good reviewed research supporting lowering even eliminating grain. A few books that I have read have compiled this reserarch to support the assumptions in their books, Why we get fat and what we can do about it by Gary Taubes, Fat 'Chance by Dr Robert Lustig and Wheat Belly by Dr. William Davis. these writings were not compiled by anecdotal evidence, each assumption has been made by citing actual research. There is an establishment of impressive places such as the sources that were cited at the beginning that simply will not even acknowledge the possibility that anything that has pushed in the past can ever be changed

For my perspective I follow a low carb lifestyle and I do not eat grain and do eat what is considered to be too much fat. Before changing to this lifestyle I binged three times a week most weeks and sometimes consumed up to 6000 calories in each one of these days. Since changing I have not binged and do not even crave these things. While I agree whole wholeheartedly that if you are going to eat grains definitely eat the whole grain. Real food is always better and these are real food.

I can accept that not everyone wants or needs to adopt my lifestyle, and if the whole grain, low fat diet gives you the best results great for you. For those of us who have found that opposite in our lives we will continue to do what works for us. I will continue to have glucose in the 70's when I used to be over 130 regularly, I will continue to have blood pressure at or below the recommended range and I will continue to have the energy to run and exercise 90 minutes a day where I never did practicing a low fat lifestyle. Just don't tell the heart association on me.

Edited by: BRIANLIEBERTH at: 10/3/2013 (12:50)
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10/3/13 12:33 P

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Whole wheat products contain gluten which I have a sensitivity to and it also spikes my blood sugar so I avoid it.

There is no one perfect diet or food for everyone.

ETA: I have no problems getting my RDA's of vitamins and minerals from vegetables, meats, fats and fruit.

Edited by: JUSTEATREALFOOD at: 10/3/2013 (12:36)
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I'm a Certified Personal Trainer.

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

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Keeping my blood sugar levels low on my high fat/ low carb/ moderate protein diet.


Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.

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10/3/13 10:37 A

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The problem is most of those "healthy grains" are made to be unhealthy because they have been genetically modified to grow in mass quantities. Today's wheat is not the same wheat from our grandparents days. I don't cut anything out because it will lead me to binge eating, but I do try to restrict the amount of wheat/gluten I consume now. I opt for more grains such as quinoa, wild rice, and barley. There is always going to be something said about our food these days because of the greedy food manufactures and their top paid food scientists. They do whatever they can to make your taste buds go crazy, and put labels such as made with real fruit......That means it can contain one blueberry, what a joke. It's really shameful that the U.S.A. has made money a priority over the health of our country. Wish we had the same food regulations as Europe does.

Current weight - 162 pounds

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10/3/13 6:57 A

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Other than for people allergic to gluten/wheat, eating products made from whole wheat should be a part of our healthy diet, in my opinion. The sources I use are The Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and The World's Healthiest Foods. I choose to believe the information presented by these unbiased sources that are not selling books, etc. in order to push some questionable dietary plan.

"Grains, especially whole grains, are an essential part of a healthy diet. All types of grains are good sources of complex carbohydrates and some key vitamins and minerals. Grains are also naturally low in fat. All of this makes grains a healthy option. Better yet, they've been linked to a lower risk of heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers and other health problems."

"Whole grains. These are unrefined grains that haven't had their bran and germ removed by milling. Whole grains are better sources of fiber and other important nutrients, such as selenium, potassium and magnesium. Whole grains...such as whole wheat in bread."
-- www.mayoclinic.com/health/whole-grains/NU0
0204


"Whole-grain foods are a healthy choice because they contain nutrients, fiber and other healthy plant compounds found naturally in the grain. Look for products that list the first ingredient as "whole wheat..."

"Healthy adults should eat at least three 1-ounce (28-gram) equivalents of whole grains a day as part of a balanced diet." -- Mayo Clinic nutritionist, Katherine Zeratsky, R.D., L.D.

"Eating more whole grains is an easy way to add a layer of "health insurance" to your life. Whole grains are packed with nutrients including protein, fiber, B vitamins, antioxidants, and trace minerals (iron, zinc, copper, and magnesium). A diet rich in whole grains has been shown to reduce the risk of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity, and some forms of cancer. Whole-grain diets also improve bowel health by helping to maintain regular bowel movements and promote growth of healthy bacteria in the colon....100% whole wheat flour"
-- www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/reap
ing-benefits-whole-grains


"Health Benefits Wheat—The Whole Truth" Read the many health benefits of eating whole wheat products:
--www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspic
e&dbid=66#healthbenefits


I have been eating whole wheat products and cooking with whole wheat flour for several years now. My blood pressure, cholesterol, and triglycerides have all dropped since I included far more whole wheat products in my daily eating plan.

"If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred...Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body? " -- Whitman

“Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string.” -- Emerson

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." -- Thoreau


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