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Can we talk Low Carb eating? do you? Like it?



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8/5/13 6:29 P

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NAYPOOIE
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7/31/13 6:41 P

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www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm

Happened to read this today. Pretty much shoots down the idea that people need to eat carbs.



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7/18/13 11:18 A

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Re Food Mfg's ~ I was shocked when I read Kessler's book. and since then, more expose books on how the food industry is hooking us with food. I can understand the need and desire to make food less expensively and to last longer on the shelves, it's the hooking us that is a huge problem, and for now, we can vote with our pocket book and JERF!!! (just eat real food, and I would add, in healthy ways ;)



Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/18/2013 (11:19)


DIETITIANBECKY
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7/18/13 9:05 A

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Hey RUSSELL-- emoticon

Becky



RUSSELL_40
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7/18/13 7:41 A

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Thanks for responding. Apologies aren't necessary. Whether you misinterpreted me, or I used the wrong wording, I just wanted to understand what I did wrong better. I understand that the diet I choose is outside the mainstream, and will not be something most people do, or maybe even should. I also understand it is your job to not only clear up the information being talked about, but also any information that people might infer from something worded a certain way. While my observation wasn't a statement saying eating 25/50/25 was the best, you were worried others might think it was. I will try harder to check my wording in the future.

I went back and read my post, and the only thing I can see about doctors, unless I misread is:

I have to wonder if doctors are just suggesting " high protein ", knowing that we will get fat along with it.

This was not a condemnation of doctors, or a suggestion that they intentionally suggest a diet to make people fat. In my experience high protein did little to curb cravings, while higher fat got rid of it. If a doctor knew this, it is possible that they allow the patient to eat higher protein, so that the extra fat that comes along with it, helps suppress their appetite? No doctor would ever say to eat more fat, that is heresy today, but a higher protein diet ( we are talking a few % points here ), would also result in a higher fat %, and a lower carb %. If we were to suggest that 10% of the people in America had messed themselves up so much, that they responded well to lower carbs( as a corrective measure, as they do with diabetic diet, not Atkins ), and you thought this might benefit them, would you suggest low-er carb, high fat, or high protein. Some patients are scared of low carb in any form, and we have been told fat is bad for decades, which is just starting to change, and I see people taking about healthy fats, and their importance, but is still the prevailing thought after years of low fat thinking.

So high protein sounds much better to many patients. You have to admit that If someone eats 5% more protein, they will most likely get more fat, and by elimination, less carbs. I think doctors aren't trying to make people fat, this was just me wondering if they let people think higher protein was working, because it was a simpler sell than saying up your fat intake 5% to diminish appetite.

In the end, I am just thinking out loud. I don't have studies on high protein diets, and the ones paid for by food producers are suspect. While I think doctors are trying to do good, as you might know, I have a few doctors, and they are wonderful, they are only able to use the information from these studies.

I DO think food manufacturers are trying to make people eat more. Where I think we can agree, low carbers, and anyone else, is that the food created by these food manufacturers is causing people to overeat. Eating after you are full isn't natural. MY OPINION is that they put chemicals in the food that trigger hunger, as cigarette manufacturers do to get you addicted. Whether you are on low carb, or a vegan diet, these processed, sugary, starchy foods are the major problem destroying all the diets.

I also wonder if the reason low carb works at all is that it just removes these foods. I am not anti-carb. I am just anti- certain types of carbs. Like a diabetic, I have done damage to my body, and I look at low carb as a corrective diet. I also tend to think we should not have anywhere near as many carbs, personally, but we all can see the difference between a cheesy Hot Pocket ( my favorite example ), and green beans. Where people disagree is the middle ground ( pasta,bread, potatoes,corn etc.). I am not sure whether it is something that has been done to these, or if it is only after a life of Pop Tarts, and Coke, that some of us can't eat these carbs either, but the debate needs to be made.

If professionals would take a look at low carb, it would clear up a lot of questions. As a low carber, I could not eat a lot of carbs at the start. Over time, as I have lost weight, I have been able to steadily consume more types of carbs. Am I undoing damage from years of processed foods, or just figuring out which carbs work best for me?

Low carbers don't have the answers. All we know is that eating a certain way makes us healthier, both weight wise, and when we have tests run, which for me personally is more important. After all the surgeries I have had, I'm less worried about looking good shirtless, and more worried about staying alive. The frustration we feel, is that we know it works for us, and we just want someone to stop and explain why, and what is the cause.

I don't want to avoid macaroni and cheese, I have to. I love it ( and Pepsi ), more than any food on the planet. I can eat 3 lbs at one sitting, and that is the problem. That is not natural. Maybe if we ate the balanced diet that SP suggests, we would never have to eat low carb at all. Others may lump in the potatoes, corn, bread etc. Still others may think the only problem with bread is what they do to it, and bread from a bakery would be okay. I think most low carbers would prefer to eat more carbs if they could. Instead I am huddle down her with a short list of carbs that I can eat, and wondering if, when I try to add another, if it will send me off on a binge. I am basically experimenting on myself, as other low carbers are also. The medical professionals aren't any help, so we come to sites like this, and join teams, but not all people are on those teams. So someone posts on the main board, hoping for a wider sample of experiences. Since there are no studies being done, we have to learn from each other, and the 5,000 people who joined a team are a small sample, and there are may teams, and forms of low carb.

People on low carb are not trying to sway others to join them in a revolution, we just want help. Help with understanding why this is the only way that works for us. Help getting healthier, implementing low carb safely. Help identifying the types of carbs that we can add to our diet, so we can have more variety. We don't understand why we are being told that the only thing that works for us is dangerous, but not why. If something is dangerous, couldn't we discuss it, and find a solution, so that it would be healthier?

In the end, my only goal is staying alive. I was very unhealthy, and this is working for me. After 4 years, I am still learning, and make mistakes. I would like to say that I want to help others, but in truth, I am looking for others to help me to correct these mistakes. If others learn from my example, that is great, but I hope to learn more from them. As has been stated, there is no scientific data supporting low carb, so all we have is our personal experiences. Gary Taubes and Atkins would argue, but I don't want to. I just want help, and to get healthier.

I would love to have a debate on low carb, and have professionals actually stop and answer questions, without their advice being to eat a balanced diet. We could probably repeat every response they would say, but that doesn't help us at all. So the very people who do have the expertise to respond with authority, and help clear things up, are not willing to even engage and help. In my entire life, this is the only way of eating that has worked, and the only help we have is to sit around and share experiences. Yes, some of us are making it work, but they may only get 1 hour or less a day to come here, and ask questions. They are starting a new diet, and see some results, but worried about adding in more carbs. They get a few options, from non-professionals just like me, I admit, and then go off to see how it works for them.

It would be nice if people stopped and thought about how that feels. Having to experiment on yourself, one carb after another, with the possibility that this food will send you off on a binge, and you may have to stat all over. Then imagine that if you asked any professional, even after you are seeing results, they tell you to resume eating in a way that has not worked for you. You have no guidance at all, and are struggling to comprehend, and make yourself healthier, by guessing, and experimenting. The only option you have left this person is to seek the experience of others. Is is scientific? Hell no, but if the choice is dying, or copying people who have succeeded on low carb, most people would choose the latter. It may not be a good option, but right now, it is the only option.

I don't want people to copy me, but I DO copy the experiences, and use the advice of others who are more successful than me. It is MY only option. We all need to realize that all we are doing is having a discussion here. Nothing here is scientific.

Sorry for the book, but I am very passionate about this topic.

Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 7/18/2013 (09:17)
Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


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DIETITIANBECKY
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7/17/13 8:21 P

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Russell--
I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post.

I read it as if you were indicating that everyone should follow a weight loss plan with 25% of calories coming from carbohydrates. Perhaps that has worked well for you. Perhaps it has worked for others---but to say that all people "lose best" on that approach is not appropriate or based on scientific research. As you have said in previous posts---people must use common sense and a healthy eating plan and experiment somewhat to find out what best works for their body, their lifestyle and their food preferences/cultural needs. Indicating in your post that everyone would "lose best" at a 25% carb amount does concern me.

While I do not work with every doctor in the nation---I do work with many within my profession. I work closely with doctors dealing with diabetes, heart disease, adult obesity, childhood obesity, oncology, gastro-intestional disorders, etc, etc. I do not know 1 doctor who would intentionally give a patient a diet plan to make them overweight. The doctors with whom I work are carrying and compassionate men and women who work long shifts, late nights, weekends...they are doing their best to improve the health of their patients and their community. To infer (or wonder) that a group of highly trained medical professionals are trying to keep people overweight and ill is somewhat upsetting to me personally and professionally. Perhaps I did not understand your post.

As I said earlier---perhaps I misunderstood the message you were trying to make. Sorry.

Becky
SP Registered Dietitian

Edited by: DIETITIANBECKY at: 7/17/2013 (23:17)


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7/17/13 6:28 P

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there is real value in discussing, even debating approaches, and the conversation has been helpful for me.

ps2, I love the term JERF! (just eat real food) Awesome & I agree :)

Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/17/2013 (18:54)


JUSTEATREALFOOD
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7/17/13 2:56 P

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It doesn't seem right at all.

We all know Russell is not a Dr. or an RD.

We also know that his health has vastly improved over the last few years so he's obviously doing something right.

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


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I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

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Keeping my blood sugar levels consistently under 101 mg/dl or 5.6 mmol/L with my LCHF diet.

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NAYPOOIE
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7/17/13 1:30 P

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I love you, Russell.



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RUSSELL_40
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7/17/13 9:52 A

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"As far as I can tell, people lose best on a 25-30 % protein, and under 25% carb level, with the rest being made up of fat. I have to wonder if doctors are just suggesting " high protein ", knowing that we will get fat along with it."


@Becky - I am kind of wondering if one, or both of these sentences are what is bothering you. The first one is just my personal observation, and the second one is just a question I have. I can't understand how any one of them tells another person that they should eat a certain way. Throughout my posts here on SP, I have said that many diets work for different people

I don't mean to be argumentative, but ....." This statement is not based or supported by scientific evidence. It does not meet national guidelines, weight loss guidelines or our SP guidelines." .....applies to low carb in general.

If we discuss low carb in any way, then we are straying from national/SP guidelines, since national guidelines only supports high carb ( 50% ). If we can't talk about anything that is not meeting national guidelines, then we can't discuss low carb at all, and if you say we can discuss it in general terms, but not specifics, then how come you can post exact %'s for the macronutrients in you diet? How else would we tell someone that in our own experience, I have noted that people do much better, meaning they stick to low carb, and lose more weight overall, if they move up to higher carb levels over time, and stick to moderate protein than people who stay at the low end of the carb ladder, and find the diet harder, and quit. They may lose faster, but overall, they lose less weight, and gain it back once they quit.

I cut out pages from this post, so as to only ask you to clarify yourself, so that we could understand how we can discuss low carb, but do feel the need to add one thing. The only thing I can think of that you would be concerned with is my term " best ", which I admit I could have used better terminology. I think most users can understand that what I said was an observation, and not a demand for them to switch diets. Also, I think people understand that I was only talking to low carbers, because of the title.

It seems like you are nitpicking my choice of a word, in a sentence that is just my opinion. My opinion would of course not be a national guideline, nor would I suggest it would be. At first I was a bit angry, because I have seen people say "people"s brains shut down on low carb", and " Egg yolks raise cholesterol, egg whites are best ", and no one says anything. It seems that low carbers have to watch every thing we say, even if we are discussing our own diet amongst ourselves, while people who are supporting your diet are given free reign to just make absolute statements based on nothing at all.

So I would love to know exactly what I said wrong, even though it's an opinion, not a statement. Then I can hopefully correct it. I would ask though that you be more diligent in pointing out errors in the people attacking low carbers with bogus "facts". Most of what they are saying is not based on fact, if for the sole reason that not a lot of testing has been done on low carb. They aren't putting forth a question, or giving their opinion. They are just repeating them as if they were backed by scientific evidence. I have not done this.

Right now, I am just confused, more than upset. I have no idea what we are allowed to talk about.

Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 7/17/2013 (10:03)
Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
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ROBBIEY
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7/17/13 9:41 A

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I like my carbs, I just eat them like all things in moderation.




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7/17/13 9:21 A

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I eat ALL things in moderation



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7/16/13 8:52 P

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emoticon Thank you everyone. Very helpful. I do get lost in the definitions, and it is helpful to sort that out. Clearly there is a danger in eating too much protein, don't want to do that for sure! I think when people talk low carb, maybe they assume high protein, and perhaps it is better described as increased but moderate to be safe with also an increase in fats. After the 90s, it's interesting to see how the research and information on fats has evolved. I would love to know what they have learned 100 years from now!



DIETITIANBECKY
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7/16/13 6:26 P

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RUSSELL--
While I agree with many of the statements in your post below; I ask that you do respect and follow our SP guidelines and safety policy. I am concerned with your statement that:

"As far as I can tell, people lose best on a 25-30 % protein, and under 25% carb level, with the rest being made up of fat. I have to wonder if doctors are just suggesting " high protein ", knowing that we will get fat along with it."

This statement is not based or supported by scientific evidence. It does not meet national guidelines, weight loss guidelines or our SP guidelines. Research shows that the key to weight loss is a calorie deficit. I also know that the majority of doctors want their patients to be healthier and are trying their best to help their communities.

While I respect your preference to select foods as you feel best for your weight loss effort and overall health---it is not safe or appropriate for you to be providing nutrition recommendations to others.

Becky
SP Registered Dietitian



RUSSELL_40
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7/16/13 2:57 P

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I think that protein may be something that would limit this " obesity gene ", and may be beneficial. I also think that excess protein will be converted to glucose, so while my diet is near the higher end on protein, I think it could cause a blood sugar spike, and Insulin release, which drops your blood sugars, and leaves you hungry. Fat has a role to play here also, and excess fat doesn't get turned into glucose.

As far as I can tell, people lose best on a 25-30 % protein, and under 25% carb level, with the rest being made up of fat. I have to wonder if doctors are just suggesting " high protein ", knowing that we will get fat along with it.

I have tried a low fat, high protein diet, and lost nothing. Just like low carbs being the answer, I don't think it is that simple. We have to limit the amount of carbs, but more importantly the types of carbs as well as stick to a higher protein level, but not 40%, or we go overboard. Standard theory says .5-.8 grams per lb of bodyweight. So a 150 lb person needs 75 - 120 grams. This can be classified as high protein, but really isn't that high. The rest comes in the forms of fats. We have differences here too. Nuts, fish, meat,eggs,legumes,and olive oil vs. trans fats, saturated fats, but more importantly, how these fats mix with processed starchy, sugary carbs.

I think most people undereat protein, because they are afraid of fat, so they avoid meat, and try to get their protein from yogurt,beans, leafy greens etc. I would just caution overeating protein. It will either be turned to glucose, or peed away, which can tax the kidneys, but that would have to be a lot of protein. I eat about .5 grams of protein per lb of body weight. I am 221, and most days my protein is 100-130. I was surprised to see my fat down to 50%, and my carbs up to 23. My protein is 27%

How we label that is important too. Someone might consider my 27% to be high protein, see my 140 lb loss, and say " high protein is great ". However if the person reading it, eats 45% protein, they might get entirely different results. Low fat, and low carb mean different things to different people. I look at 23% carbs, and think " how am I losing weight? " I have always stuck to 10% or less. I upped them by upping my fruit/veggies though, and I am still losing with 12+ servings a day.

So whether low carb, low fat,or high protein, you are still probably going to get the most benefit by eating healthy choices of carbs, protein, and fat. How you divide this is up to the individual. I believe that carbs are the easiest food for producers to ruin, so I would suggest that you pay extra close attention to the carbs you consume. Most of the protein/fat foods that cause cravings/weight gain, are also loaded with starchy, and sugary carbs, like ice cream, or hot dogs w bun.

Just keep replacing foods you know aren't the best, with something better, and eventually, you will be eating a healthy diet, be losing weight, and exercise more. If that is impossible, because you can't stop a binge, then maybe you should consider something like low carb, in the form of Atkins/ Paleo, instead of moderate carb.

Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


 current weight: 181.0 
 
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MRSAND
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7/16/13 1:34 P

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I've found that 150-200g per day (30-40g is fiber) is what works for me...usually 40-50% of total calories...I tried going much lower carb early in my journey and had some pretty serious side effects (almost passed out while driving)...almost all of my carbs are from fruits and veggies with a little oatmeal and a little fat free milk and/or yogurt...as long as I stick to this I do not get hungry...(or dizzy!)



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7/16/13 12:59 P

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Nuwalk, you are clearly doing your research. That is very good. Don't just take Gary Taubes' word for it, or Dr. Ornish, either. Experiment and find what works for you in a way that is easy and satisfying. In that direction lies success.

I lost a lot of weight and maintained it for years, then I got all stressed and busy and lost my way. Starting over from a much better place (way less to lose this time!) and making things better.


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7/16/13 12:18 P

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here's the story from CBS This Morning show on the obesity gene and the hunger hormone, and that a high protein diet can help certain people, in the short run and a possible test for it.

www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50150998n



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7/16/13 12:09 P

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emoticon thank you everyone, all the comments were very helpful.

the low(er) carb program I've done for a month has worked well. It is true that it is generally less in overall calories than when I was eating and gaining weight and it has helped bring my appetite back under control,


just this morning on CBS This Morning show they had someone talking about a hormone that drives hunger. I was passing through the room and didn't catch it all, but they said a test is being researched that may show if a person would respond better to a higher protein diet. They didn't say if that went hand in hand with lower carb or lower fat... and that some day there may be a physical test available to help people know which kind of dietary approach would work best for them... That would be gr8!


I am afraid of doing something unwittingly that would be harmful. I have read that a high protein diet can be hard on the kidneys and harmful to the body and that it is important to do higher fat or higher carb... So I know higher carb is not particularly good for me, triggers a voracious appetite... So, if I increase fats (after the 90s of eliminating them, this blows my mind...) then the question is which is safe? meat or plant based fats.... Maybe both, seems to be evidence for both, so more reading!

Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/16/2013 (20:45)


COLORADOGRRRL21
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7/14/13 6:43 P

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I eat moderate carbs compared to most low carbers but still low for what Spark's default recommendations are. I set my range at 50-150 carbs per day. (Spark's settings were 130-240). I find that if I eat higher than 150 carbs I wind up consuming many more calories without feeling as satisfied. If I eat much lower that 50 carbs my energy lags and I have digestive problems. (Because I have no gallbladder, it's hard for me to digest a LCHF diet - though I wish I could, because I've heard great things from friends - and seen their results). I've tried nutritional ketosis and Atkin's induction plans before and it just doesn't work for me. (But more power to you if it works for you!). So 50-150 seems to be my best range, I try to keep it under 100 even, but don't stress if it's closer to 150.



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RUSSELL_40
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7/14/13 11:39 A

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I've missed a couple of days, but the debate on this thread is awesome. It is very interesting for me in particular since I am upping my carbs on Atkins right now. I am closing in on 50 left to lose, and thinking of going to pre-maintenance. I have been close to 200 several times, but always start to get low blood sugars, and feel bad. I've wanted to lose fast, so I haven't ever done what was actually recommended, which is slowly raise carb levels, as I got closer to goal weight.

The years on low carb make the transition easier. I have a list of foods that are carb, that do not cause me weight gain, and am surprised at a few of them, like apples, kidney beans, and FiberPlus bars. I know that pasta, and white bread cause me issues, as well as corn and potatoes, but peas I can have, even if they are slightly higher in carbs. I am currently around 95 carbs a day, and my fiber has jumped to 22 grams a day.

It is funny that I can feel sluggish and my muscles ache from being too low in carb, which may be from low blood sugars as well, and that the same effect is caused by eating very high carb junk food.

Doctors would dance in the street if people cut out fruit juice/soda, and cooked their own meals.We can demonize pasta all we want, but it is still better than Hot Pockets, or a Big Mac. I think Jillian Michaels said it best in her book. We aren't looking for perfect, but better. As a low carber, I wouldn't consider Subway to be a great meal, but can see the benefit over eating that instead of Taco Bell. Same with exercise. We don't need to start running marathons, just make small steps to improve our cardiovascular health, like a leisurely bike ride. I think that most of us have the same ideas, and apply them in varying degrees. SP is all about baby steps to ultimate success, and it is the only real way that works. We slowly make improvements to our exercise, and diet, until we achieve a healthy weight, and good health.

It is obvious that cutting out all the " crud " in the SAD is a simple first step.

Icedmeter - 259 grams isn't really that high of a carb level out of 2700 calories. We tend to get that while eating 1500-1800 nowadays. Also, they tended to eat a lot healthier carbs. I still struggle to add variety to my diet. We tend to eat about 10% of the fruits and vegetables available to us. I know I didn't eat anything but maybe corn once a week, and now eat 8-10 serving a day. Living on a farm would have allowed people to see the way food is meant to be, as opposed to what they stock the grocery with these days. A large percentage of the people have no idea about their food at all. They would not recognize wheat, or even corn in nature, and cheese is a mystery to them. This is why it is so easy to fool us with a label telling us " crud " is awesome!! We just go to the grocery, and eat whatever is there.


Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 7/14/2013 (11:40)
Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


 current weight: 181.0 
 
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262.5
213.25
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BITTERQUILL
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7/13/13 6:30 P

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There is a lot of really good and interesting discussion going on in this thread. I'll avoid diving into the depth of it since I'm a few days behind, but I will add my own personal experience in the matter, as minimal as it is.

My family has a strong history of both diabetes and heart disease. So does my husband's. I've never been particularly overweight, just a little here and then (particularly after pregnancy), but he has been on the bigger side for his entire life. When he was diagnosed with type two diabetes at age 25, we both overhauled our eating habits.

I do the majority of the cooking, so I started cooking and eating as if we were *both* medically advised to watch our overall carb intake and make sure that carbs, protein and fiber are well distributed throughout the day. We've both lost weight, his numbers are better than ever, and I've managed to avoid inching toward the "danger" zone of pre-diabetes. We both spluge every now and then and, of course, it affects me less than it affects him; I'm not idealistic enough to think that will last forever, though. But in the end, learning to eat this way now will stave off my own health problems for as long as possible, and will make the transition a lot easier if I ever end up being diagnosed. Plus, it is very beneficial to our son, who is being raised with a minimal amount of processed sugars and flours in the house. He already prefers brown rice to white, and steelcut oats with berries to Captain Crunch, because that's what he's most familiar with. He thinks of my carrot zucchini Greek yogurt muffins as "cake" even though they're almost infinitely more nutritious than a traditional cupcake, and that works just fine for me.

I don't really feel that extreme restriction is necessary *or* helpful, as most experts (and people in this thread) agree, but compared to the way that most people in our society eat, eating for diabetes is considerably lower carb. It's really not terribly restrictive and we still get plenty of carbs from produce, dairy and whole grains. Overall, I'm usually within the Spark ranges for most things but I *do* fall a little short on carbs, as far as SP is concerned, fairly often. It happens most when I get tired of starchier foods at dinner, and load up on extra vegetables instead, and it's never caused me to feel lethargic or undernourished.

Everyone has different medical and nutritional needs, but this has worked very well for me.

Edited by: BITTERQUILL at: 7/13/2013 (18:33)


ICEDEMETER
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7/13/13 6:21 P

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I think it's a very individual thing, but my personal tastes have drastically changed even over just a few months. Things that I used to really enjoy (think peanut butter cup cheesecake) just taste like overly sweet wax now, and I have no interest in them. Berries and fruit are sweet enough on their own (pineapple is actually too sweet), and I don't add nearly as much sugar to my coffee or cocoa as I used to. I suspect that in a few more months I won't be adding any at all. Granted, I'm not the gung-ho, jump-in-with-both-feet type --- I've made all of the changes quite gradually.

I'm not even trying to go low-carb, but am finding that my tastes are just naturally running in that direction. I never bother with pasta any more, since my partner and I prefer "spaghetti" sauce over cauliflower and broccoli. We also much prefer the taste of a cauliflower crust pizza to any other kind. I honestly can't remember the last time I had bread or rice (although I did have a home-made muffin today), and I have no interest in having some any time soon. (As a dedicated bread fan, typing that and realizing how very true it is, just shocked me!) I did have some pasta as a side item at a restaurant a few weeks ago, but wasn't honestly interested enough to finish it, and it was only a 1 cup cooked serving.

I guess that I can say that, for me, the taste change has made it possible for me to have a little bit of this or that now without it triggering some kind of craving or binge, because those things just don't taste good enough for me to want more of them. I've had more of an issue with being disappointed when having a "treat" and it turning out to not taste anywhere near how I remembered it!

I should mention, though, that most of my previous "cravings" have turned out to be from my body looking for specific nutrients (yeah, I'm the weird one who got cravings for brussels sprouts and trout, as well as chocolate), so having a particular food item doesn't generally spur cravings for me. Now that I make sure that I get all the nutrients, I don't have any issue with them. The one exception to that is salt --- I've always eaten a low sodium diet, and when I have something high in sodium, then I suddenly have an overwhelming desire to eat everything that isn't moving fast enough to avoid me... I haven't quite figured that one out yet, but need to soon since I've been told to go on to a high sodium diet!

I know that others react very differently, and do have issues with withdrawals or symptoms or cravings or binges. I suspect that it is also very individual as to whether it works out better to make slow, gradual changes like I do, or to go with the Atkins style approach.

This is definitely an area that you need to try for yourself and make some honest observations as to how it is making you feel.

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Afraid of a colonoscopy? Believe me - they are much less frightening than surgery and chemotherapy.

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JUSTEATREALFOOD
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7/13/13 6:20 P

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Hang in there, it really does diminish. Try some dark chocolate. Let it melt slowly in your mouth, it's a very satisfying treat that cures my cravings.

When everyone else is eating that traditional Italian meal I will eat a bowl full of meat sauce with meatballs and a salad. That's the best part IMO anyway. Flourless chocolate cake can sometimes be found on dessert menus.

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I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids


Keeping my blood sugar levels consistently under 101 mg/dl or 5.6 mmol/L with my LCHF diet.

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7/13/13 6:02 P

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glad to hear your sweet tooth diminished, thank you. Mine is screaming today!


and regarding huge carb meals... who knew? I think I will need to look at and adjust my choices in restaurants and special/holiday feasts. The spaghetti/dessert example was a fav at Italian places... will have to give this some thought.

Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/13/2013 (18:03)


JUSTEATREALFOOD
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7/13/13 5:52 P

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I have totally lost my sweet tooth! Everything I don't make myself is incredibly sweet. 80% dark chocolate is sweet to me now.

Honestly I wouldn't eat a meal like that anymore. I eat vermicelli in a peanut stir fry maybe a couple times a year and I've never liked pie. I can imagine a meal that high in carbs would give me intense sugar cravings the next day.

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


Working on completing my certified Personal Trainer course in the new year!

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids


Keeping my blood sugar levels consistently under 101 mg/dl or 5.6 mmol/L with my LCHF diet.

ontariomountainbikingmama.blogspot.c
a/


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7/13/13 5:44 P

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emoticonSo, do you think it is possible to lose your sweet tooth? Have you?

for example, if you do eat a high carb meal, say spaghetti, garlic bread and a dessert like pie, are the cravings right back and do you have to go through all the *beginning* symptoms; aka *crap food* type carb withdrawals?



MEGHAN1984
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I've done it for years and its funny how much your tastes change. To me, fatty foods -- bacon, avocado, cheese -- don't give me any sense of forbidden fruit. Now a cheat meal looks like a huge plate of pasta or some awesome maple brown sugar oatmeal.



MEG-NATALIA07
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7/13/13 3:43 P

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I don't eat "low carb" so much as I eat "lowstarch & refined sugars/grains". I am in the normal range of carbs because of fruits and veggies and some gluten free grains. But I have really done better since limiting my starches and refined sugars. (I do eat yams and potatoes and Gluten free starches, just not every day). To make up for that I added in more meat and fat (chicken, beef, butter, whole eggs, nuts, whipping cream, coconut oil) and my body loves it! I can maintain my weight, lose if I want and my cravings are less frequent. So for me this is a great way to eat.



Edited by: MEG-NATALIA07 at: 7/13/2013 (15:43)
GRACE. BEAUTY. LAUGHTER. REST. COMPASSION. GOOD FOOD.


I love to cook and bake. I have compiled hundreds of recipes on Pinterest: Crowd pleasers: Traditional & Lightened versions of timeless favorites, as well as: gluten free, vegan, Paleo & Grain-Free... and a ton of Scones and desserts.
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MUGSYCAT
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7/13/13 12:58 P

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This has been some interesting reading. I have PCOS and been diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome (as far as you can be diagnosed, more like I fit the profile) -- dr put me on a "limited carb" diet and for the first time in 20 years I am losing weight -- not gaining it.
I have found it very hard to give up my "white starches", but am figuring out how to make it work. I feel better, sleep better, look better, and my numbers are all better. This will be a way of life for me, and all I know is that it works for me -- as long as I stay healthy, this will be how I eat.



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DIETITIANBECKY
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7/13/13 9:08 A

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Just a few comments that I want to give a thumbs up: emoticon

Striving for a good diet; not a perfect diet! There are many forms of a good, health promoting diet. It is all about variety, balance, moderation. It deals with ranges allowing for taste preferences, cultural preferences, health needs etc. There is no need to be "perfect" when eating. There is no such thing as a "perfect" diet. The idea of perfection with eating starts to trigger thoughts of disordered eating.

The "no-crud" diet ..... emoticon

and finally...
the vision of those two guys "dancing in the streets"....enough said already.

Have a great weekend filled with "good foods". My broccoli is ready to be picked...gotta go.

Becky



LILLITH32
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I love the idea of a low-"crud" diet! That's the way to go. I am not sure if my diet can be considered "low-carb", but I don't eat most grains and dairy. My carbs come from fruits and veggies. When I first started the diet, I had cravings and such, but within a month they mostly went away. Now I am trying to get rid of sugar in my diet, so I will be cutting down on my fruit consumption (especially dried fruit). When I am sugar, grain and dairy free I feel great and have all kinds of energy, when I slip up and start eating SAD again I feel gross. I will say that I avoid "junk" food and soda, so that may be more of a reason then the number of carbs in my meals. Low carb is not for everyone, but no "crud" should be!



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M4GGIE_B
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7/13/13 1:48 A

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Porridge oats, wholewheat pasta and spaghetti and vegetables form the basis of my food intake but i do sometimes slip. Low carbs actually makes me feel healthier from the inside and ready to workout harder. It is true.....you are what you eat!

Keep on striving forward!

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DANCEMOM1970
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7/13/13 1:19 A

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emoticon DietitianBecky.



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NEWMEXICOPARROT
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7/12/13 11:26 P

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I do eat carbs but not white carbs. Whole grains etc. and I eat them in moderate amounts. Moderation in all things.



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ANARIE
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Nuwalk,

For all the arguing, all the debating, all the diet book wars, if you're paying attention, they ALL agree 100% on one thing:

Junk food is junk food. We all know what junk food is. NOBODY has EVER proposed that sugar and Crisco are healthy.

Nobody is ever going to take my whole wheat away from me without at least a semi-automatic, and Russell will defend his cheese and butter with tooth and nail, but both of us agree that sugar and hyper-processed food out of boxes are the reason people are fat. Gary Taubes and Dean Ornish would do the happy dance naked together in public if they succeeded in getting everybody to give up soda.

There's a saying, "Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good." We're arguing here over the perfect. We actually all agree on the good. Dumping junk food is the good. And if you read between the lines, it is what has worked for EVERYONE here. We got rid of the sugar and hydrogenated fat, and we all got healthier. People who didn't give up those things didn't get healthy. The details don't really matter.

Forget low-carb. What matters is low CRAP. (Pardon the language, but you know exactly what I mean.) Go on a low-crap diet. No matter what else is in it, if it's low-crap, it will work.



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DIETITIANBECKY
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7/12/13 7:51 P

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I respect the right and opinions of others to read material as they wish, and to decide on the eating plan that they wish to follow. However, this site bases its recommendations on scientific research evidence that has been published in peer-reviewed medical and health journals. For the latest on heart health, you may want to read some of the information in our Healthy Heart Center:
www.sparkpeople.com/resource/health_condit
ions.asp?condition=15


Notice in the center that one of the key ways to prevent heart disease is to achieve and maintain a healthy weight...why? Because this helps return lipid levels to a healthier range. How does one lose weight? There are many ways, many eating plans....but they work because the person is in a calorie deficit. It is plan and simple math.

I also ask that members who want to share information to be sure to share that which is based on research evidence and can be backed by research studies.

Becky
SP Registered Dietitian



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7/12/13 1:49 P

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I don't know about the fat argument(s) either, will have to read on that too.

I think my grandfather's typical day also looked like iced. He lived to 101 but managed heart health with drugs. He was also normal weight and active, but this is anecdotal, just 1 persons story.

I wonder. Did prior generations really live healthier & longer... we hear all the time about how life expectancy seems to increase, except they are worried that the new generations my have worse health because of the obesity epidemic.

very interesting conversation.

Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/12/2013 (20:49)


BEARCLAW6
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7/12/13 1:43 P

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I would be careful about comparing historical diets and health. In the recent past (150 to 50 years ago) the only people eating the equivalent of SAD were rich people. They had the money to eat more meat, fat, year-around fruits, desserts, breads of all kinds....and they were also the only people who had signs of diabetes and heart disease. The poor people were the ones who ate lots more carbs (oats and rice and wheat were cheap compared to pork and cake!). Funny how the typical picture of a poor farming family is of a skinny dude standing next to his chubby wife. Poor, but chubby? Yep! But, those same poor people were working their rears off all day long, and so probably needed the extra calories....and they tended to have really bad teeth (sugar and starch do that to you!), were short grain heavy but nutrient poor diets lacing variety will do that to you), vitamin deficient and generally unhealthy. It was the 'middle class' people who ate lower carb, since they could eat better than just grains all day long but couldn't actually splurge on fancy stuff on a regular basis. And guess what....they were the healthy ones...strong and tall like the rich but not actually fat. Back then, the diet of choice for the rich people trying to get in shape was the banting diet...a diet that looks a lot like Atkins and much like how middle class people always ate!

Well, guess what....now, most of us eat like the rich people in the past. We expect meat at ever meal. We expect dessert. We expect three choices of breads on the side. We consider corn and potatoes and ketchup vegetables! We expect a sweet drink to wash it down. And, when all that carb spikes our blood sugar, the insulin kicks in, fixes the problem and then tells our brains that we are still hungry...snack time!

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October 2012: 215 lbs
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As a famous ancient philospher once mused..."Eat a steak, not a cake!"

Don't be active to lose weight, lose weight to be active!

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JUSTEATREALFOOD
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7/12/13 1:23 P

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This is a great conversation.

NSMANN - Check out Dr. Jonny Bowden's book The Great Cholesterol Myth - Why Lowering Your Cholesterol Won't Prevent Heart Disease-and the Statin-Free Plan That Will

www.amazon.ca/The-Great-Cholesterol-Myth-D
isease/dp/1592335217


JERF - Just Eat Real Food


Working on completing my certified Personal Trainer course in the new year!

I eat mostly vegetables, fats, meats, some fruit and dark chocolate. Unprocessed and preservative free. And it's changed my life!

5'4"
Goal weight 125lbs
36 years old
2 kids


Keeping my blood sugar levels consistently under 101 mg/dl or 5.6 mmol/L with my LCHF diet.

ontariomountainbikingmama.blogspot.c
a/


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STARSHINEFL
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7/12/13 1:11 P

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I was thinking the same thing as ICEDEMETER... my grandparents and my husband's grandparents (born in the early 1900s) ALWAYS had potatoes and bread with meals, but soda and big desserts were uncommon.

Edit: also things like "frappuccinos"...

Edited by: STARSHINEFL at: 7/12/2013 (13:13)
~Kim

There are two things to aim at in life; first to get what you want, and after that to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind has achieved the second.
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ICEDEMETER
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7/12/13 12:40 P

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You know, Russell, your mention of the diet of earlier days being more low carb made me curious. I just dropped a "typical" day in to my tracker of a menu that my Grandfather pretty much followed all through his life (he died last year at 99). He was 6', always around 170 lbs, and physically very active until the last couple of years. This "typical" day consisted of:

Breakfast of a large plate of potatoes fried in bacon grease, 4 eggs, and 4 slices of bacon, 2 slices of buttered toast, along with 1/2 of a tomato.

Lunch of a sandwich made with big slices of home-made bread, butter, and dark chicken meat (I guessed at thigh), along with a lot of coleslaw.

Mid-afternoon snack was a cheddar cheese sandwich, with a glass of whole milk.

Dinner of roasted chicken, mashed potatoes, gravy, mixed carrots and peas, and another 1/2 of a tomato.

The day came out just under 2700 calories, and with a 38% carb / 40% fat / 22% protein split. This includes a whopping 259g of carbs (29g of fibre). It is very much in line with your view that they ate a more moderate version of what is now considered to be "low carb" (high fat).

I can't speak for other areas and climates, but in central Canada the diet was very strongly based around potatoes and bread. The vegetables that grow best here are potatoes, carrots, peas, beans, corn, onions, beets, cabbage, salad greens, squashes, cucumbers, and tomatoes. Some smaller apple varieties will grow here, but the only fruits are raspberries, blueberries, saskatoon berries, and you can occasionally find cranberries. (Yeah, yeah I know - tomatoes are technically a fruit, but I always think of them as a veg!) Wheat flour has always been one of the cheapest staples, so there was always bread on the menu.

Realistically, poorer town folks would have had a much higher carb percentage, since bread and potatoes made up the bulk of their meals. Meat just wasn't as available or as affordable. Carrots, potatoes, onions, and beets all stored well, and home-canned peas, beans, beets, and tomatoes were fairly common. Cabbage was used almost daily, either fresh or pickled. They would have had higher saturated fat intake since the more affluent used butter, while those less well off used lard or bacon grease. Nuts, olive oil, avocados, and ocean fish just plain were not available. Farmers (like my Grandfather) and hunters/fishermen would have been the ones with the higher protein levels.

Where I see the biggest difference in what I know of as a "typical" diet of the early 20th century and the "typical" diet now is the massive increase in sugar. Sugar was very much a luxury to my grandparents, whereas now it is ubiquitous. The amounts consumed daily just in soda by a lot of people would exceed what my grandparents consumed in a week (or maybe a month). I think you are absolutely right that processed foods and sugar may very well be the real problem.

What this makes me wonder is if the "low carb" success is not in the removal or limitation of grains, dairy, and pasta, but in the subsequent lowering of sugar intake. I know that breads, cheese, and milk were definitely a part of earlier local diets (pasta being a much more recent "import" around here), and they don't seem to have been an issue. This little exercise, to me, has lent some strength to my thought that it isn't "carbs" that are a potential issue, so much as it is the type of carb (sugar).

I could not agree more strongly with your statement that "Because in the end, maintaining a healthy weight is the most important thing. Whatever diet can achieve this for you, is the best diet for you, no matter what it is."

Thank you all so much for giving me something to chew on this morning!

Start weight: 240 lbs
Goal weight: 155 lbs (reached March 7, 2014)

Afraid of a colonoscopy? Believe me - they are much less frightening than surgery and chemotherapy.

Colonoscopies allow polyps to be removed before they can become cancer, or let cancers be found before they are too widespread. If you are 50 or older, or have any symptoms, please don't let fear stop you from covering your butt.

Get checked!


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RUSSELL_40
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7/12/13 10:32 A

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I also think there is a difference between my having eggs, olive oil, butter, 6 ozs. chicken breast, and 8 ozs of ground beef with vegetables than high fat in a SAD.I also have an apple daily, to avoid low blood sugars, 1/2 at breakfast, and lunch. I don't eat processed foods, or sugar ( besides apple ), which I personally think is the real problem.

I don't purposefully eat fatter portions of meat, or try to get my fat higher. It just ends up in the 55-65% fat range, since I am switching fat, and carbs, which run 10-15%.

While we do not have long term evidence of low carb, even though my parents ate eerily close to low carb, or a more moderate version just 70 years ago, we also have no long term evidence of the diet approved by the AMA today. That diet was invented in the 1970's, just 40 years ago, and everybody switched to the SAD of today quickly, as food manufacturers swooped in to make " low fat " foods

There is this myth that we have always eaten the " balanced " diet the AMA is pushing these days, instead of the fact that people ate eggs and bacon for breakfast, and meat and vegetables for lunch and dinner, because for many years, most people lived on a farm, and hunted. They had fresh fruit, but not nearly as much as we have today. My Mom never had a banana till she moved to a town at 24 years of age. They ate what was in season, and available here in America. Bread was rare for them. So, unless my parents lived in some special place in the 1940's, the average American just 70 years ago, ate a pretty low carb menu.

So the "balanced " diet is actually the new diet on the block, and since it started, we have had soaring obesity, cancer, heart disease, and diabetes rates. It may be because people aren't actually eating the diet doctors wish, but it is what the diet has caused in practice. People don't sit down and stick to the diet presented. What they heard was " fat is bad ", and bought anything low fat. So they think low fat Twinkies are okay.

I am not trying to say that low carb is better than a balanced diet. For those who have no issues with carbs, then enjoy the heck out of them. However, when we debate ways of eating, it would help if we stopped and compared actual results, instead of theory. The increased longevity of humans is due to advances in medicine, not better health. Most of the healthier nations actually consume more fat, granted, not 60% fat.

The truth is, we really only have results from all the years of eating pretty low carb, limited diets that we ate for centuries, and the new " low fat " craze of the last 40 years. When set side by side, the last 40 years are the unhealthiest in human history. Continuing to eat like this is insanity. I know the SAD isn't what doctors want you to eat, but it is what people eat, so it has failed, even if just by poor implementation of the diet.

One does need to stop and ask what the rates of the diseases were in 1950, and what we ate. Were there 18 year old diabetics? Was cancer/heart disease so plentiful? NO.

Now we can actually go back and look at what people ate, and study it. Science has advanced incredibly in the last 40 years. Why was our diet so healthy before 1970, compared to after? The debate needs to happen, and for it to happen, we need to throw out all the slogans that get tossed out every day.

1) high cholesterol is bad.
2) high fat is bad.
3) low carb is dangerous
4) your brain can't function without carbs... seriously?
5) you won't have any energy on low carb

These are all things that are said to shut down debate. If someone wanted to discuss the benefits on low fat, I would listen, instead of telling them their diet is responsible for 60% of America being overweight. I think there is a benefit to eating a balanced diet for people who do not have any issues, but there is also a need for low carb to correct the damage done with the SAD. Both low fat ( for lack of a better term ), and low carb, have people that it can help. There is no need to attack either one. We don't have to have one diet that is for all. We can eat different diets, and do well.

Instead of attacking low carb, why not just point out what is dangerous about it, and give actual evidence to support it, then work out a solution. There are many similarities between low carb, and the balanced diet doctors wish we ate. Fresh fruit, and veggies, along with protein, and healthy fats. I think the biggest differences are in grains, dairy, and pasta.

The problem with studies done today, is that they are paid for by the people who have an economic interest in the study supporting them. So, amazingly, it says their food/ way of eating is the best ever. Makes it kind of hard to believe any of the studies ( low carb ones too ). So, now people are bouncing from diet to diet, whenever they hear something works for someone else. Hopefully, one of them works for them, and is something they can stick to for life.

Because in the end, maintaining a healthy weight is the most important thing. Whatever diet can achieve this for you, is the best diet for you, no matter what it is.

Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


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FROGMAN2013
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Isn't if funny that a guy can eat enough saturated fat, fat in general and cholesterol to make a 1970s cardiologist choke on his whole wheat bagel but it actually results in an improved blood lipid profile, eliminating the need for diabetes and lipid-lowering drugs! Good work Russell! Don't ever let them tell you that fat if bad for you.

Also, Becky, one of the things that has come out of various studies looking at low-carb diets is that even the studies that don't show significant long-term weight loss show improved lipid profiles. And, oftentimes, there is no distinction made between all the various types of lipids in that 'LDL' number. There is the small, highly-oxidized LDL particles that are super nasty to your body and there are the larger, fluffy, LDL that has been shown to be linked to a healthy cardiovascular system. We are measuring blood lipids using 1960's technology and expecting it to be informative. With the exception of people with hyperlipidemia, there is no correlation between LDL level and disease. In fact, some studies in older adults found that higher LDL was linked to lower mortality.

Yes, there is a correlation between being really fat and being sick, but that is quite dependent on many factors besides actual body weight and a person's fat percentage. I know a woman who weights nearly 300 lbs, but also eats very healthy, does triathlons, has significant muscle mass. I would bet she has a longer life expectancy than the neighbor who is skinny but smokes, is excited about Hostess treats coming back into stores and breathes hard going to the mail box.

Edited by: FROGMAN2013 at: 7/12/2013 (09:24)
I lost a lot of weight and maintained it for years, then I got all stressed and busy and lost my way. Starting over from a much better place (way less to lose this time!) and making things better.


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PATTISWIMMER
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7/12/13 7:58 A

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I eat low carb, moderate protein, high fat in that I mostly avoid grains but I am not anywhere near Atkins type of low carb.. for me low carb is just a bit lower than the SP recommendations and that means most of my carbs come from vegetables... and some fruit too



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DIETITIANBECKY
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7/12/13 7:41 A

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I would professionally "guess" that your lipid profile improved because you lost weight; not because you are consuming 60% of your calories from fat.

Currently we do not know the "long-term" effects of an extremely low carb diet-- extremely high fat diet" .....however, we do know the long term effects of obesity.

One should always talk to their doctor about the type diet that would best meet their medical needs. These site, our SP experts, and our SP members is not a replacement for the medical advice and treatment from one's doctor, dietitian, or healthy professional.

Becky
SP Registered Dietitian



RUSSELL_40
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7/11/13 10:46 P

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NSMANN - I have CHF, and started low carb because of that. Atkins was a cardiologist. It is a heart healthy diet, and weight loss was just a welcome benefit.

I eat 60% fat and 5 eggs a day, and 1/3 of my fat is saturated. My cholesterol has dropped to 104, and my HDL is up. Every test I have is improved, and I have gotten off my diabetes, and cholesterol meds.

I think current theory is that it is harmful, but in practice it proves to be the opposite. However, everything you are worried about does happen if you eat the SAD.



Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 7/11/2013 (23:51)
Russell - current BMI 28.6
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NSMANN
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7/11/13 6:13 P

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Here's my issue with low carb. Because of the decreased emphasis on carbs you have to compensate by getting your calories from fat and protein. A high fat diet is a dangerous risk factor for heart disease ( see: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/PreventionTreatmentofHighCholesterol/Know-Your-Fats_UCM_305628_Article.jsp ).

My doctor recommended that I eat less than 14g of saturated fat per day in order to control my cholesterol, and I'd never be able to achieve this on a low carb diet because every fat source has saturated fat in it (olive oil, avocados, peanut butter, ...) and you have to consume more of these foods to get your calories.



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Wow, so much to read. I will have to come back when I have time to sit and absorp all this.

I do feel like smacking my head... Yes, even the SparkPeople plan and most diets are way lower carb than overeating and the SAD! Somehow that sank in with CoachBecky's post! It's like a moment of clarity. The rest boils down to how low to go and what type, for what reasons... and figuring that out is doable!

Thank you everyone! I just can't tell you how much this helped. I felt like I was stuck in a loop like Sheldon was in an episode of The Big Bang Theory... LOL



MANDIETERRIER1
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7/11/13 1:13 P

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I tried it and didn't like it. I do like my carbs and I don't feel satisfied if they only come from fruit and vegetables. I like bread and pasta.

Some do this diet and they are successful and they do it in a healthy manner.

Everyone has to do what works for them.

I agree with Dietitian Becky Low Carb and the Spark approach are way different from the Standard American Diet. I have family members that consume the SAD and they don't eat like I eat.

For instance if we go to restaurant and I order the lean meat with the side of seasonal vegetables unsweetened iced tea and a house salad dressing on the side. They order the fried whatever with a side of French fries a coke or syrupy drink and at least they get a salad.



Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 7/11/2013 (13:20)
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ICEDEMETER
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7/11/13 11:53 A

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@ RUSSELL_39: emoticon

What a great, well thought-out post!

Thanks to you and JUSTEATREALFOOD for the reminder that this is still a moderate protein diet. I have to absolutely agree that the marketing world just never would have allowed this to be accurately labeled as "high fat" (just not a "selling" phrase, is it?!)

I'm a huge believer in eating foods as close to natural as possible, in whatever macronutrient ratio works the best for your body. Processed anything, whether "low fat" or "low carb" or whatever tends to be created in such a way as to force more sales. I also find that scientific understanding of the microenvironment of our foods and our bodies is not yet up to the task of determining whether necessary nutrients can be adequately utilized when taken out of the original food or replaced with an artificial version. There is still too much to be learned for me to trust that the laboratory can supply nutrients that work the same as those naturally supplied in foods. They are finding now in medicine that the microenvironments are far more important than ever before considered, and I believe that they will find the same thing about foods in the future.

I know a few folks who have lived happily and healthfully for years with a low-carb diet (and you're right --- they did tend to start at the extreme lower end of carb intake and then gradually work their way up to higher levels, but are very choosy about which carbs they have). I also know a few folks who have lived happily and healthfully for years on a ratio closer to the AMA recommended diet. What all of them have in common is that they research the nutrition levels of their foods, and they all are well over 90% of intake as close to nature as possible. Not to say that any of them don't use some processed foods, but it is really minimal compared to the SAD.

I don't think that it's fair to say that "Low carb is harder than other diets, because it requires you to think." More accurate, in my mind, would be to say that a healthful, nutritious diet is harder than SAD, because it requires you to analyze the nutrient contents of foods, forego the convenience of processed food-like items, learn to prepare meals from natural ingredients, and act upon your observations of the effects of diet on your body.

Thanks, and cheers!

Start weight: 240 lbs
Goal weight: 155 lbs (reached March 7, 2014)

Afraid of a colonoscopy? Believe me - they are much less frightening than surgery and chemotherapy.

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RUSSELL_40
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7/11/13 11:21 A

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DANCEMOM - A couple of points about your post. Low carb is not extreme. Many people eat 100 g of carbs on low carb, which isn't that low, and will for sure eat twice the vegetables/ fruit that any other diet besides vegan/vegetarian supply.

You can argue about the word diet, or lifestyle. That is just a way that people try to separate their diet from others. Diet is derived from Latin, and means the way you eat. The only peopl on Earth not on a diet are the ones who are starving. You could go to any of the low carb team sites on SP, and see people who have been doing low carb for years, and have no intention of ever quitting. Low carb is a way of eating, not a temporary diet.

The processed low carb food being put out there is not something that most long term low carbers eat.. EVER. It is garbage, and it causes new low carbers to fail, and say low carb does not work. We all want a secret food that makes whatever diet you are doing easier. A bar, or a shake. They are bad on any diet. I haven't seen any low carber who has been on it for any length of time, who doesn't eat plain meat, eggs, and fresh vegetables in large quantities. The people who eat Atkins bars/shakes, tend to fail, because they cause them to still have cravings, unlike real low carb.

There is a difference between low carb, and the " low carb " that food manufacturer's are pushing. They are in it to make money, and know that most people will just see " low carb " on a product, and eat it. If they fail, they switch back to another food, which the manufacturer also makes, so no loss for them. Making these two diets the same is akin to saying that the SAD, is the same as the diet the AMA is suggesting, because they both have high carbs, moderate protein, and low fat. The SAD is filled with processed foods, and sugar/salt, and is killing people. The only problem with the diet recommended by the AMA, is that no one is actually following it. They switch from lean meats, healthy fats,grains/legumes and fresh fruits/vegetables, to mac & cheese in a box, and Coke, or pizza. That is not the fault of the original diet. They are not the same. Neither is actual low carb, and the products being pushed by food manufacturer's. If you are eating low carb products, you are not doing low carb correctly, and will probably fail. Sabotaging low carb, seems to be the method of attack these days.

Low carb is harder than other diets, because it requires you to think. You have to read labels, and question everything. Pay attention to what you eat, and how it affects you, and then make adjustments. It requires you to care about your own health.

I think we can all agree that the food we eat today is the worst in human history. The food my parents ate every day was low carb. They lived on a farm, and my Dad was 140 lbs when he graduated at 5'7". Even when I started school back in 1980, all the kids had ribs sticking out, and our parents made meals from scratch. We had oatmeal, instead of sugary cereal, sweets/soda were rare, and we ate lots of fruit/vegetables. Hot pockets hadn't been invented yet..lol.

What you have to realize about extreme versions of low carb is that they are corrective, not permanent. People who are obese, have to go below their maintenance carb levels, and find out which ones cause them cravings. This seems to be the focus. How low you go. South Beach is a low carb plan, which slowly reduces carbs till you lose, in an attempt to keep as many carbs as possible. I couldn't go that way, because I had binges, and needed to remove the foods that caused me cravings. I have since been able to up my carb level considerably, and can have beans, but not corn. Even though beans have more carbs, it isn't always about the # of carbs, but which ones. Most people have a few carbs that are trigger foods, and after a bit of experimentation, can eat plenty of carbs, but just avoid those few.

You seem to have this idea that no one on low carb, ever eats bread, potatoes, or pasta ever again. Many do eat those in limited quantities. That is why it is maintainable for a lifetime. Based on the track record of the approved diet of today, I would guess that a higher % of low carbers actually stick to it.

In the end, you need to understand that low carb can describe someone who eats 0 carbs a week, and people that eat 150 g of carbs a day, and everywhere in between. They just pay attention to how each carb food affects them, and are a bit choosy. People at the top end of low carb, overlap people at the bottom of the diet doctors say is best, and actually eat more of the food on that diet than people on the SAD.

If people ate a bit lower in carbs as children, like doctors advise ( meaning less sweets/processed foods ), then we would already be eating moderate carb, and not need to go so low to correct the problems SAD caused. Personally I do not think that the upper end of low carb, and what your doctor would recommend are that far apart. I eat lean chicken breast, eggs, a fruit a day, and lots of vegetables, and beans. I am still in a weight loss phase, so I don't eat cereal, pasta, or bread, but I never really liked those foods anyways, which helps me lose 2-4 lbs a week. Others might have already decided to start adding a potato, or brown rice in at this point, but I still have 55 lbs to go, and choose to stick to 55 grams of carbs a day, except when I add in beans. I do eat higher fat with olive oil, and butter, and find that the higher % of fat i eat the faster I lose.

Low carb, with high protein is not usually successful, because extra protein can be converted to glucose. I think the people pushing low carb are just afraid to call it high fat, since the low fat craze started in the early 1970's. Never mind that since that point, America has gotten obese, and sickly. People think fat is bad. It is a major hurdle for people switching to low carb. They think 60% fat will make them sick, so they make up the carbs, with protein, and still have high blood sugars, and then crash, and feel cravings.

Comparing low carb to fad diets like the cabbage soup diet, is kind of strange, since we all ate lower carb for millions of years, and the way we are supposed to eat now is about 40 years old. True, we didn't eat Atkins Induction, but bacon and eggs was a standard breakfast. If any diet is a fad, it is the one Congress told us was the best in the early 1970's. Of course, once again, I have to point out that most people do not follow this, but that is because, like low carb, manufacturers have mad a bunch of fake food, that is processed, and full of sugar/salt, but ultimately says low fat, so people gobble it up, and expect to be healthy. We really only have data on the lower carb, balanced diet we ate when we hunted, and farmed, and the SAD that we have been eating for about 30-40 years. Between those 2, low carb is the easy winner. Atkins/Paleo diets are extreme forms of low carb, but as time passes, they turn into moderate carb diets, that you can eat for the rest of your life.

I have no doubt that many people can lose weight and be healthy on the AMA diet, but the people who stick to that are rare. so we have no idea if it really works. It has been sabotaged, and it is why America has an obesity problem. Low carb is facing the same issues. Instead of attacking low carb ( for lack of a better word, sorry ), it might be better to attack the food manufacturers, who are producing all this fake processed food. If more people could stick to the AMA approved diet, then less people would have to do very low carb. We would have some people doing moderate carb, and others doing higher carb, but it would only be healthy carbs.



Russell - current BMI 28.6
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JUSTEATREALFOOD
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7/11/13 7:45 A

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I just wanted to mention in case someone reading this doesn't know a lot about low carb diets that a low carb diet isn't a high protein diet. A low carb diet done properly is a high fat and moderate(same as SP) protein diet. Basically you are swapping fat and carb percentages. When low carb is done right a ton of vegetables are consumed which makes it a very healthy way of eating.

JERF - Just Eat Real Food


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DANCEMOM1970
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7/11/13 2:19 A

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I have never been a believer in any extreme method of losing weight, be it meal replacement shakes, cabbage soup or low carb diets. I have done research, however, and while I understand the science behind why low carb diets work on some people, I don't believe it's a healthy way to fuel the body. That said, over the past year while I've been working on making my eating plan a way of life rather than a "diet" with a beginning and end and I've noticed that I tend to feel the best when I eat at the low end of what SP lays out for me for carb levels. Thinking about that further, I think it really comes down to when I eat lower carbs, I tend to eat higher protein because I'm still aiming to hit my calorie range.

I know for sure that I would never be able to handle a full on low carb diet. For me, it would be unsatisfying as well as create digestion issues for me. I think every person needs to find that "sweet spot" that works for them, and it needs to be something that can be maintained for the rest of their lives. I know a lot of people who lost weight on low carb diets. That can't be disputed. But I don't know a single one that made it a life long thing. And not only that, I believe that many people who choose to eat low carb tend to eat a lot more processed foods that the marketplace is putting out labeled low carb. I think most of us benefit from a diet in foods closer to their "natural" form than processed.

Yes, this is my opinion. And yes, I think everyone should be entitled to one. It won't work for me, and I'm not alone. But I know some people believe strongly that it works for them. And that's ok. We are all different.



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RUSSELL_40
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7/11/13 1:33 A

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Jeannie - One thing to take note of is that all carbs are not created equal. You may want to stick to a certain number of net carbs, but if you have a banana you are at 28 g, once you subtract the fiber. A cup of raspberries has just 6g. Low glycemic carbs will allow you to eat more carbs to get to the same total of net carbs.

Not having Pop Tarts, or potatoes is obvious, but no one usually argues over whether peas, or green beans are better for you, but it can make a difference with your menu. Beans have 4 g of net carbs per cup, and peas have 14. You could eat 3.5 cups, and get the same net carbs as 1 cup of peas. Higher carb choice leave you with less carbs, and you eventually get tired of just fat and protein, and cheat.

Adding greater quantities of good carbs ( volume ), and more variety, keeps you on plan, which is the real secret to low carb. You have no cravings, and so you don't overeat. Do this over time, and you achieve a healthy weight.

Russell - current BMI 28.6
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JEANNIELOUISE64
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7/11/13 1:13 A

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Carbs for my body is the enemy. Not that I eat none, I just consume low. You won't find daily bread, rice or potatoes in my house. A few times a week more likely. I miss some of those foods, but really enjoy them when I allow it. This is all new since menopause for me, so its by force, not choice. I can over-eat carbs and gain 5 lbs and spend a week getting it off. So much for hard work. Why sabotage myself further? I've maintained my weight now for a few years by eating this way. Now its time to lose once and for all, and I knew the first place to start was carbs and calorie counting (yes I've tried many things and this is what works) And of course working out. So, if your body does not respond well to carbs, its time to test reducing them. Find good carbs when you do choose them.



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ATHENA1966
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7/10/13 11:58 P

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NUWALK at the end of the day will figure out what works for you. As Becky stated there are multiple ways of choosing a lower carb approach. I think that is good because not everything works for everybody. I personally have had some success (the only success in 6 years) with a lower carb approach. My motivation to continue is that I eat healthier and I have no cravings. I had to see the results over a 5 month period to believe it. I lost the first 25 pounds and then slowly increased my carbs(flax and Wheat pita) and would have occasional days that ate pizza and more pizza. However I would allow myself those things occasionally because I . considered myself in Maintenance. I have been in maintenance for several months so I about to work on my next 8 pounds. My point is, although lower carb eating is not for everyone, it works beautifully for others. You will find what works for you!

Be faithful in small things because it is in them that your strength lies. ~Mother Teresa


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ICEDEMETER
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7/10/13 8:58 P

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Unfortunately, meats, fats, and veggies are also a part of the industrialized food supply system and companies are quite capable of creating highly processed food-like substances with them just as easily as they can do with carbs. Adding a bit more fat, a lot more salt, and playing with a few additives can make these just as attractive and "addictive" if you will as a processed carb. Think about deli meats, commercial jerky, frozen veggies in sauces, and commercial salad dressings as a few examples.

The issue with SAD is that it is the "standard" or "average" - which does not in any way mean that it is healthy, or that it reflects the diet of those who try to get more nutrition out of their foods. The simple fact that you are on this site and are consciously aware of the foods that you are ingesting and the impact on your health means that you are no longer partaking of the SAD.

My personal perspective is that, for me, my diet has to meet two requirements: one is that it supply all essential nutrients to make my body run well, and two is that it be very flavourful and have a lot of variety to make me happy. Due to my individual genetics and due to past medical issues, my body doesn't do well with much more than 20% fat, and it needs a large amount of fibre. Anything above 30% protein makes me physically ill very quickly. I've found that I'm happiest and healthiest at around 50% carb / 20% fat / 30% protein. I've found this by experimenting with different ratios, and it is a massive change from my previous 70% carb / 10% fat / 20% protein diet.

I've always been of the (unsubstantiated) belief that our individual genetics give our bodies unique preferences when it comes to diet. I find it fascinating that some on this thread are so obviously doing great on a low-carb diet that would have me very sick in short order. I've also seen on other threads some posters who thrive on a diet as high or higher in carbs than mine used to be, but which I couldn't healthfully sustain.

I don't believe that someone not thriving on any specific plan or ratio is due to their "failure" to follow the rules, or their "failure" in understanding. I do believe that they deserve commendation for trying something and finding out how their body reacts to it, and having the good sense to move on and try something else if this particular plan doesn't work for them.

Thank you, NUWALK, for starting this thread, and kudos for starting with looking for knowledge and experiences (both positive and negative) before jumping in with both feet. Once you get the knowledge of how to approach a low-carb diet healthfully (it ain't just noshing on bacon all day!) then I encourage you to give it a try for a month or two to see how your body reacts and whether you enjoy it.

Start weight: 240 lbs
Goal weight: 155 lbs (reached March 7, 2014)

Afraid of a colonoscopy? Believe me - they are much less frightening than surgery and chemotherapy.

Colonoscopies allow polyps to be removed before they can become cancer, or let cancers be found before they are too widespread. If you are 50 or older, or have any symptoms, please don't let fear stop you from covering your butt.

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DIETITIANBECKY
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7/10/13 8:02 P

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I have seen people losing weight with great success following:
--a lower carb eating approach (usually about 20-35% of calories coming from carbs). Usually there is a higher intake of fruits, veggies, lean meats, etc.
AND
--a moderate fat, protein, carb approach (usually about 40-60% of calories coming from carbs). Which is basically our SP approach---using lowfat dairy, lean meats, fruits, veggies and healthy-providing grains
BOTH approaches are cutting calories from the SAD.

Neither of these approaches to successful weight loss should be confused with the SAD.

The SAD diet is filled with calories, fat, sugar, processed carbs, chips, crackers, pop, sweets, giant muffins, etc, etc.

I believe in a free-enterprise system---a company can sell and make a profit on whatever foods it desires to invent, produce and sell. I as the consumer can refuse to buy it. I know that we are living in a distorted world of excessive calories and portion sizes. But no one is making you put it in your grocery cart, pushing it in your hands at the gas stop, or forcing you to eat it at a restaurant.

Becky





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7/10/13 5:31 P

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emoticon Gotchya, Low Carb is so totally different than SAD!

Aside from the *diet industry* that advocates calories in/out in one form or another, it occurs to me that the whole food industry & government by way of politicians pressured by lobbyists are wholly invested in producing and selling us carbs and processed foods. I don't see how that *machine* can be turned around other than by voting with our wallets & grass roots word of mouth.

I thought it important in terms of chemicals in our food. Movies like Food, Inc and Michael Pollan's food rules have seemed so counter culture, but even vegan approaches would be seen as acceptable because they are carb centric and those foods can be offered in highly processed forms.

Strikes me that a low carb approach wipes out a huge industrial complex. Now need to understand the low carb argument altogether... Have to say, it blows my mind...

ps, I AM trying to talk about this stuff... comments addressing the ideas the nature of eating low carb welcome

Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/10/2013 (17:33)


RUSSELL_40
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7/10/13 4:29 P

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SAD = Standard American Diet

Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


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7/10/13 2:54 P

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Russell, what is SAD?

emoticon Frogman, thank you for laying out what a day of eating looks like for you...

As a carb lover, who thought I understood current dietary advice, calorie counting & food pyramids, the thought of going low carb was not something I thought I would ever be interested in. I had decided to do a low carb meal replacement with a meat/veggie dinner for 30 days as a kind of jumpstart thing and then go back to the calorie counting/moderation approach I've always tried. I've had very good success losing and some emotional difficulty with not eating carbs, so I would like to understand why low carb would be healthy and if it is something I could do emotionally. If I do continue with low carb eating, I will move to all real food...



emoticon have been reading Gary Taubes theory of why we get fat, essentially for some people, insulin stores what we eat as fat at the expense of other needs in the body. And, he speculates that as insulin lays food into our fat cells, we are undernourished for the rest of our body which triggers need for more energy which triggers more appetite which triggers that voracious appetite cycle.

The book: The end of overeating by Kessler shocked me when he presented the research about food addiction, that excess sugar, fat & salt combined is similar to crack in the brain...

waves hand... I really don't know how much carb I can tolerate without slipping back into a voracious appetite for carbs.


so my guess is it might be a combination of both. I don't know, I will do more reading, and I am very interested in why Taubes may have reached an incorrect conclusion(s)? I am having trouble sorting through the information, it is so very different from the calorie counting/moderation in all foods approach I am used to doing.





NAYPOOIE
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7/10/13 2:21 P

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I agree, they don't want to debate. But I try.



 current weight: 219.0 
 
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RUSSELL_40
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7/10/13 2:14 P

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Ok Nay..lol. "You're ridiculous and don't know what you're talking about". may not win people over.

Sometimes I just burn out, and snap too, so I can't really talk. It would be nice to actually have a discussion based on facts, instead of opinions. Arguing with SAD followers is like arguing about religion. They have faith, not proof.

I don't see an honest debate happening anytime soon, just because the evidence that it isn't working, is staggering. They are just following the advice to never enter a debate that you aren't sure you can win. It's why you are so eager for one..lol.

It is taking a while, but slowly, low carb is gaining in acceptance. The reason that they are now mis-labeling diets as " low carb ", and coming up with foods that cause cravings, even though they say low, or no- carb. is that they see it as a threat to the current thinking. When low carb was a diet that no one thought was sensible, they ignored it. One day we will look back on the SAD of low fat/high carb, and laugh, and go " WTF were we thinking! "

Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


 current weight: 181.0 
 
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262.5
213.25
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NAYPOOIE
NAYPOOIE's Photo Posts: 5,482
7/10/13 1:56 P

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Russell, I see what you're saying, but I really don't feel like I was attacking her. To me, attacking isn't "Tell me what you ate". It's more like "You're ridiculous and don't know what you're talking about".



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XCLOSED
Posts: 671
7/10/13 1:52 P

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emoticon Thanks again everyone who've shared that low carb eating does or does not work for you. Your experiences help.

Edited by: XCLOSED at: 7/10/2013 (14:53)


RUSSELL_40
RUSSELL_40's Photo Posts: 16,235
7/10/13 1:24 P

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I was just suggesting that sometimes words said in anger, are often ignored. Your overall example of the success you had as a story, might actually be something to offset the misinformation/different results being put forth by others. YOU are the counter-story. However, if people think you are attacking someone, they tend to just focus on the fight, and less on the message.

Yes, we could take a look at the success of SAD, and point out that we have gotten more unhealthy since lowering fat, and upping carbs, many of them processed, but a positive message always works better. People respond to someone saying " I lost X amount of pounds, and have no cravings" more than they do to people demanding other posters explain themselves.

people post things they hear all the time on here, whether they are true or not. So they have calmly posted their side of the story, and hopefully, you have done the same. Now it is your story, versus theirs. people will judge your stories based on the success you both have had. If you lost 100 lbs, and have no cravings, and they lost 20, and are posting daily, about willpower, and their hunger, then people will eventually figure it out.

The problem with being confrontational, is that then, people ignore what you have said, and side with the opposition, and that story is the only one heard. If the goal is to get people to see the wisdom you are sharing, you first must get them to listen, instead of sounding angry.

I understand the exasperation. You have looked at the evidence, and it seems obvious to you. Me too. However, exasperation in text, comes across as anger, or talking down to people, and then they just dig in, and "know " they are right. I know this from experience. Sometimes I get angry when I hear warnings of danger that is a myth, or the lack of success by people who have never actually been on low carb, but expressing that anger/exasperation, at least in my experience, just causes people to label you the " angry person ", and ignore you at best, and might make them side with the others, whom they see as being abused by you.

Be patient, tell people of your success, and eventually the proof will be so much, that low carb will be accepted as a regular diet, not a fad.

Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


 current weight: 181.0 
 
361
311.75
262.5
213.25
164


NAYPOOIE
NAYPOOIE's Photo Posts: 5,482
7/10/13 12:56 P

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NuWalk, glad you stuck around. If you don't want go full bore low carb, how about just substituting a side of veggies where before you'd have a side of starch. Instead of a sandwich, put the sandwich fillings on a salad or stuff them in a stalk of celery.

I hear you about the sweet treats. I love doughnuts, pie, etc. You might be able to get away with savoring a small amount of dessert, you'll have to decide what you manage based on your experiences. Just try to make sure it's really, really good stuff and you give it your full attention and enjoyment.



 current weight: 219.0 
 
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NAYPOOIE
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7/10/13 12:47 P

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Russell, a falsehood repeated many times becomes seen as the truth. I'm not here hoping to change anyone's mind, just make sure that those who haven't made up their minds yet get a chance to see both sides. Someone who only read Love4Kitties posts would probably conclude that low carb is bad because she says it doesn't work for her, it doesn't work for her sister, it doesn't work for anyone she knows, and she believes that it won't work for most people. That's pretty overwhelming.

So I ask her for specific details. Show me what it was that didn't work. If she'd answered me, we could have discussed it. It could have been enlightening all around, but since she didn't, at least it becomes clear that she isn't presenting any hard facts against low carb, just her opinion. So people reading it have a reason to consider the other side.



 current weight: 219.0 
 
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FROGMAN2013
FROGMAN2013's Photo SparkPoints: (1,747)
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7/10/13 9:10 A

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What works for me as a low-carb eater:

Typical Breakfast: veggies and cheese omelet with a side of bacon

Typical lunch: Big chicken salad with feta cheese, veggies and ceasar dressing.

30-60 minute bike ride, walk or run

Typical Snack: nuts or peanut butter with celery

Typical Dinner: As much meat and steamed veggies as I want and sometimes some berries with whipped cream (unsweetened)

Notice the complete lack of grains and potatoes. Notice the small amounts of dairy and fruit. Notice the emphasis on veggies and animal protein/fat. Also notice the almost complete absence of processed foods or foods poured from a can or box. That works for me. When I eat this way, I am not hungry, I do not crave and I do not need to cheat. I am also in mild ketosis most of the time. If I do cheat with a slice of pizza or birthday cake it takes me about three days of concentrated effort to get back in the groove or I cheat even more. Grains seem to be an especially strong trigger for me; more so than even sugar.

Where I have messed up in the past is letting myself get down about my personal life (messy marriage, lost love ones, stress at work) and letting donuts or pizza or candy sooth me. While a low-carb diet can help eliminate a sweet tooth or cravings it is not a substitute for cleaning up the emotional aspects of a person's life! This is not a failing of a low-carb diet plan since NO diet can deal with that stuff.

Also notice that if you cut out some of the meat fat/protein and added in some grains, it would look a whole lot like a SparkPeople plan. In other words, really quite similar in goals and general principals.

I lost a lot of weight and maintained it for years, then I got all stressed and busy and lost my way. Starting over from a much better place (way less to lose this time!) and making things better.


 current weight: 263.0 
 
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RUSSELL_40
RUSSELL_40's Photo Posts: 16,235
7/9/13 11:08 P

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Nay - I think people can see that certain detractors are just making things up. A person who is cheating daily has never done low carb. A person who can't tell you how many carbs they can eat before they gain weight, is probably just trying one of the " low carb " fraud diets, which seem to be a great way to discredit actual low carb eating. It isn't our job to call them out, although it is frustrating.

Yes, these bogus " low carb " diets are leaving people hungry, and cheating, and they fail, and say that low carb doesn't work. All you can do is give information about your way of eating, and let people see the results. It is why I say I do Atkins. Giving a specific plan, requires you to actually follow guidelines, so Paleo, Primal, or Atkins has standards. When people say low carb, it is just their opinion of what low carb is.

Yes, these people are confused, and not on a low carb plan, but that is freedom of speech, and they do not need to explain themselves. Opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one. All you can do is state your example, and what it has done for you, As you read through the posts, you can tell which ones did low carb correctly, and who did not. You have to let others make up their own mind. It is your example vs. other posters example, and that is why SP is so great. Both sides of the argument have been laid out, and a person, can read through both, and decide what would work for them.

All you are going to do by arguing is get angry, and no one will listen to your message. No one wins an argument by stating how the other side is wrong. The winning message is the story of your success, and others listening to it, believing you, and on their own, or with guidance from you, also succeeding on real low carb and then you have 2 people as examples.

State your argument/story in a positive manner, and people will contact you one-on-one for advice. That is how you change the minds of people. When you hear of someone trashing low carb, just remember that they are just passing on what they have been taught. Someone told them to do a moderate carb approach, and of course, they failed. It is what they know, and just like you, they are sharing their experience.

You aren't going to win the debate on one thread..lol. Relax, and just keep spreading your example.

Russell - current BMI 28.6
197 - bmi 30 - done
164 - bmi-25


 current weight: 181.0 
 
361
311.75
262.5
213.25
164


 
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