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CALLMECARRIE's Photo CALLMECARRIE Posts: 1,598
3/2/14 4:43 P

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TRACY1201, thanks for the kudos on the weight loss. I've learned some good eating habits I can stick with for life, although it's a one-day-at-a-time effort.

Actually I'm not stuck on the name of the Paleo diet at all. I take issue with the accuracy of the diet's underlying evolutionary logic. To believe that all foods found or grown after the onset of human agriculture and animal husbandry are bad requires you to defy known nutritional science. The article to which you provided a link - "Why Are Legumes Bad For You?" is not science and is not convincing. It takes a leap of faith I can't make to believe that there is any such thing as one paleolithic diet at all. Aboriginal Australians, Alaskan Inuit, and hunter-gatherer societies in southern Africa did not eat the same diet. I'm not convinced it would make me healthy (never mind would it be practical) to try to mimic the diet of any of those groups.

I've been pretty clear on what I do think is good about the Paleo diet -- less processed foods, lean protein, etc. If you've lost weight, good for you. But I'm going to keep eating cottage cheese, tofu, legumes, and sweet potaotes because they're healthy -- whether cavemen ate them or not.

Edited by: CALLMECARRIE at: 3/2/2014 (16:45)
"I owe everything you see here to spaghetti."

-Sophia Loren


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SKYLARGREY's Photo SKYLARGREY SparkPoints: (9,663)
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3/2/14 11:16 A

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I don't understand why potatoes aren't Paleo. They grew in the ground, they are not processed?



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TRACY1201's Photo TRACY1201 Posts: 313
3/2/14 11:12 A

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CALLMECARRIE - I still think you're too stuck on the Paleo Term and the hype of the diet without giving much thought to its merits. You are welcome to your opinion. Thanks for sharing. It may not be received well when you state someone's life choice as silly.

Also, there is a lot of science that suggests legumes are NOT healthy for consumption. That is up to the individual to decide. Here is just one of the many articles I found that suggests I should avoid them. If you want to continue eating them, great. There is so much information out there and so much of it contradicts other things we read. I can only tell from my experience, this seems to be working for me now.

http://livingsuperhuman.com/superhuman30-day-29-why-are-legumes-not-paleo/.

Anyway, Congratulations on your weight loss! That is an amazing accomplishment.

If you focus on results, you will never change.

If you focus on change, you will get results. Jack Dixon


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TRACY1201's Photo TRACY1201 Posts: 313
3/2/14 10:51 A

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MISSSJVJS - Hi! I have only been doing this since January and have had better results with weight loss, sugar levels and motivation than anything I ever tried. Sometimes when in contact with foods I shouldn't eat, I do miss them, but overall I don't think about the foods we try to avoid. This is the biggest personal win.

It sure is a lot more cooking and preparing than I'm used to, but well worth the efforts! I have a friend that is Gluten Free and mostly Paleo. This has been a godsend. She's been able to provide a lot of recipes and insight to save me some of the research!

If you focus on results, you will never change.

If you focus on change, you will get results. Jack Dixon


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CALLMECARRIE's Photo CALLMECARRIE Posts: 1,598
3/1/14 12:20 P

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MISSSVJS, re-read what I said. I didn't put anyone down. I repeated several times that the idea of avoiding refined sugar and grains and eating less processed food is a good one. I congratulated the previous poster on her success. What I said -- and what I stand by -- is that the paleo diet proceeds from the assumption that paleolithic humans enjoyed good health and we know what they ate, which I doubt on both accounts. I said red kidney beans are good for you whether cavemen ate them or not. I said that the whole thing strikes me as silly. If it works for you fine, but the original poster asked for others' opinions. She didn't ask for pro-Paleo opinions only. That's mine.

"I owe everything you see here to spaghetti."

-Sophia Loren


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EELPIE's Photo EELPIE Posts: 2,669
3/1/14 12:14 P

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lol...cavemen also practiced cannibalism, so...I dunno if their diet is right for me :)

The best exercise in the world is to bend down and help someone up.


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MISSSVJS Posts: 494
3/1/14 11:56 A

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I've been following the Paleo lifestyle for a while now - not because I want to eat the way the caveman did - I doubt that anyone knows for sure what the caveman ate. Frankly I don't give a rat's arse what the caveman ate - I'm not trying to "emulate" anyone. I'm eating this way (1) my doctor highly recommended it, so I decided to give it a try to hopefully help with some healthy issues I've been experience; (2) since following it, I feel incredible; my energy level has increased two-fold; my cravings are gone; I'm not hungry; and (3) I've lost weight! I know I'm gluten intolerant and that dairy and grains doesn't agree with me either so Paleo is perfect for me. Callmecarrie - I'm very happy that you've able to lose a lot of weight eating the way you do; obviously that was right for you. Paleo is right for me, so why put people down because they chose to follow a different path than you did? Every body is different so everyone needs to work out an eating plan that works for them. I would think you would want to encourage people to do what works best for them instead of telling them that what they are doing is "silly". Just my 2 cents.

CALLMECARRIE's Photo CALLMECARRIE Posts: 1,598
3/1/14 10:11 A

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Tracy, I offered my opinion because the original poster asked "I just wondered what people's opinions are." If you lost weight following the paleo diet, good for you. Probably anyone who starts paying attention to what they eat and stops eating refined sugar and processed food will lose weight. Great!

I personally have lost 100 pounds by avoiding refined sugar and flour and high-fat foods and eating more fruits and vegetables, but I still eat bread and cereal, and I eat white potatoes and white rice once in awhile. Sorry, but I still think the assumption that paleolithic humans were well-nourished and we should emulate them is -- to put it mildly -- silly.

"I owe everything you see here to spaghetti."

-Sophia Loren


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TRACY1201's Photo TRACY1201 Posts: 313
3/1/14 9:47 A

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Hi CallMeCarrie,

My doctor recommend this diet in January. I cursed her all the way home thinking that this would be impossible. There are foods on there that I didn't understand either. Kidney Beans, White Potato, and a few others. I also agree that I really don't care what cavemen ate, but I followed the eating guidelines for 3 weeks and had more blood work. When I went back to my doctor she told me that my A1C dropped 1 full point in 3 weeks, which is awesome because I won't have to go on medication. All digestion issues disappeared within the first week. I also lost 19 pounds and I wasn't counting calories. I don't expect to continue to lose at this rate, but I found something that is working very well for me.

I said I wasn't counting calories, but I did record my meals here and was within the calorie protein and fat guidelines. Will I stick to all the rules forever? Probably not, but it has taught me a lot about cooking and removing processed foods from my daily diet.

As I read your post, I was wondering if you're so against the Paleo Diet, why did you seek out this message board?

If you focus on results, you will never change.

If you focus on change, you will get results. Jack Dixon


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CALLMECARRIE's Photo CALLMECARRIE Posts: 1,598
2/28/14 9:02 A

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Eating less processed food and less sugar and refined grains is great. But the Paleo diet proceeds from the assumption that A) Paleolithic humans enjoyed great health, and B) we know what they ate. I doubt it on both accounts. Also, if an author is claiming that a food like red kidney beans is unhealthy -- that is demonstrably not true, I don't care if cavemen ate them or not. If they didn't, that's a shame for them, it would have made them healthier.

While I support the idea that the modern western diet is overly processed and contains too much refined sugar, the idea of a bunch of affluent folks in the Western world trying to emulate cavemen seems ridiculous.

"I owe everything you see here to spaghetti."

-Sophia Loren


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TRACY1201's Photo TRACY1201 Posts: 313
2/28/14 8:25 A

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I had some similar questions... Why wouldn't a white potato be Paleo?

In my opinion, they are. I do avoid them because the glycemic index is high. I'm sticking with the original plan and I'm having some really good results while eating organic/natural food. In the past, I didn't lose weight because I was taking the easy route too often and eating processed foods - Even if my calories were 1200 or less, I still wouldn't get results and I was miserable and starving.

Going back to nature seems to work well for me.

If you focus on results, you will never change.

If you focus on change, you will get results. Jack Dixon


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
2/6/14 11:39 A

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" I have a question. Where do beans, wheat and rice originate if that was the case. And sugar cane is grown too right? How would we have these things if they didn't have them back then. Is it based on the location of these cave men. Just wondering what everyone's opinions are. "

The answer is that there were thousands of years between cavemen, and today. Just because we did not farm in our early years, does not mean the food did not exist. We didn't invent wheat, or sugar cane. We just didn't use it. Once people discovered these foods, our diets changed. The reason it took a while to find these foods is that when looking at them, you would never guess they are edible. We see wheat, and think of bread today, but all a caveman would have seen was tall brown grass. If I handed you a pound of wheat, or some sugar cane, and told you to make food out of it at a campsite, most likely I would find them discarded, and you sitting at the campfire eating some berries when I returned. You might attempt to chew some sugar cane, and realize that it was sweet, but it is very hard. You might use a cane to beat a small animal you snared in a trap to death, but the idea of making these into foods that you could eat just took time, as did all advancements in society.

The real debate lies in how early we discovered farming, and what they ate before this. While some meat was probably part of their diet, they most likely didn't beat a saber-toothed tiger to death for lunch every day, but trapped small animals, and ate berries, nuts, tubers etc., which are part of the Paleo diet, but the focus seems to be on all the meat in the diet.

The fact that many Paleo dieters eat the same or less protein than the average American diet often goes unnoticed, as does the fact that they eat more vegetables, nuts, seeds etc. Plus that a bunch of their calories comes from fats that are non-meat, like olive oil, and nuts, and ones from animals, that aren't meat like butter and cheese.

Not all of the food on Paleo would have been used daily by cavemen, and some of it not at all. I am sure olive oil is allowed, but if olives were available , they would have been eaten as olives, not as oil. So there is a bit of interpretation. Plus things that are available but might not have been eaten at all because they don't taste good.. like cinnamon, and those olives. We add sugar, and pickle foods to make them tastier, but in their natural state many of these foods would be spit out.. by us, and by cavemen. I think olives are gross tasting, but the canned, and jarred ones are salted, and taste much better, without any of the bitterness. Cinnamon tasted like dirt, but mix it with sugar, and it tastes great.

I think we have a better idea of what cavemen DID NOT eat, than what they did eat, and omitting those foods seems to be more important than saying a caveman ate these exact foods.



"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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EXOTEC's Photo EXOTEC Posts: 3,065
2/5/14 9:35 P

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It's a shame we have to apply labels to eating plans. I know some small variations do make a difference, but generally speaking (very broadly), Paleo, Primal, "real food" lifestyles simply mean eating whole and natural foods. You can attribute the reasons for it any way you like.

I do think that ancestral nutrition, insofar as what our bodies "accept" as food, does have impact. We never (in our ancient development) had the quantities of sugar, grains, legumes, that we have today. Some of that is because "we" didn't know how to process it to make it safe. Even "modern" cultures have learned how to treat those foods to make them edible and digestible. I have to wonder exactly HOW hungry they had to be to continue to try to find ways to eat things which made them sick! or one would assume.

As to the carbs - we get plenty of carbs from a good base of veggies. All those dietary plans are founded on lots of healthy veggies, and they all contain small amounts of carbs. So there's no "starvation" involved at all. We don't need carbs in anything near the quantity that is recommended, or that most people typically consume. Especially not in the forms we consume them!
The other erroneous notion in that same post is that ketosis is a dangerous and life-threatening condition! ha. You're mistaking KETOSIS for KETOACIDOSIS. They're *nothing* like the same thing. Ketosis is a normal and desirable state in which our bodies are metabolizing fats. Isn't that what we want to do? mobilize that stuff out of our bodies? OTOH, ketoACIDosis is a very dangerous condition in diabetics which throws your acid-base balance totally out of whack, and can indeed be life threatening. Just because they sound similar doesn't mean they are. Factual warnings are always useful. Erroneous ones just raise the hysteria factor.

As with any lifestyle, you have to tailor it to your needs and your perspective. If this one doesn't seem like one you can take to heart, find one you will - and one you can stick with. That's the most important consideration. If you can't stick with a thing, it's just not going to produce successful results.


...the problem with people these days is
they've forgotten we're really just animals ...
(attributation forgotten)

We did not create the web of life; we are but a strand in it.
~attributed to Chief Seattle

We don't have souls. We ARE souls. We have bodies.
~C.S. Lewis


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TRACY1201's Photo TRACY1201 Posts: 313
2/5/14 8:53 P

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I started following the Paleo Diet 3 weeks ago. Not necessarily anyone's plan, but eliminated grains and dairy. My calories most days are within 1200-1500 depending if I exercise. My sugar levels have dropped. Within a few days I noticed that my mood was better and within a week I no longer had any digestion issues. I haven't weighed myself - scale day is Saturday. I estimate that I lost 10# though by the way my clothes feel.

When my doctor put me on this diet I was not happy. I usually feel awful cutting carbs so low, but removing the dairy and the gluten seem to be key. I feel great and have my hunger under control.

I eat 4 meals a day (trying to squeeze 5-6 just seems to be too much for my full schedule). Each meal is 200-500 calories. I plan on 2-3 fruits and a lot of veggies. Other than carbs, the fats, proteins and calories are withing the spark limits.

If you focus on results, you will never change.

If you focus on change, you will get results. Jack Dixon


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RUSSELL_40's Photo RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
1/7/14 9:12 A

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Low carb = high fat.

Not that the goal is to eat fat, but since protein stays at 20-25 % of the diet, and you are supposed to be eating very low carb at the start, around 10 %, then that leaves 65 % coming from fat. Trying to eat 30 % carbs isn't going to work, and while I follow Atkins, I am pretty sure this isn't Paleo.

Make sure you read the book, and follow the foods suggested. I am pretty sure Nutella isn't good on any diet. It is more than eating a low amount of carbs. There are certain foods that you want to get you carbs from, and certain other ones to avoid. So while you may want 40 carbs a day, they must come from a list of acceptable foods, and be a much smaller part of the diet. Even at 60,or 70 carbs, you want it to be out of about double the calories you consume now ( 1600? ).

You up the calories with fats, and vegetables. You can have 4-6 ozs meat/fish.fowl with the lunch , and dinner. Have it with a Tbsp. of olive oil, and put the vegetables right in the dish, or have a salad ( dressing w/out sugar in it ). Eat lower glycemic vegetables, and lots of them. Most of your carbs should come from vegetables.

Pick a calorie level ( be generous ), and then how many carbs will be consumed. Then multiply protein by 20-25 %, and the rest will be fat. Don't be afraid of the fat. Get more fat from oil, butter, eggs, meat, fish, fowl, nuts, and avocados, and almost ALL of your carbs from leafy greens, and other low glycemic vegetables.

Don't be afraid of eating 10-15 servings of vegetables, and less Nutella. Macadamia nuts are much higher fat %, if nuts are allowed at the start of Paleo.

Most important is to read up on the diet that you want to follow. I think you will then realize that what you think low carb/Paleo is, and what it really is, vary greatly. Join a Paleo team, and look at the shared food trackers. That may be a help too, as well as everyone there knows the exact way to do the diet, so you will get questioned answered better.



Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 2/6/2014 (10:52)
"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

- Henry Ford


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REBECANOLA's Photo REBECANOLA Posts: 3,275
1/6/14 4:37 P

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Corn, Legumes, and white potatoes are generally "not allowed" on the Paleo diet. If you really are interested in it as a way of eating, I'd suggest reading a book on the subject like The Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain if you haven't already. You can also get recipe ideas. I don't so much buy the "caveman" aspect of it, but eating clean is always good.

It really shouldn't be hard to meet calorie goals if you're eating 4-6oz of protein at a meal, using good fats like olive or coconut oil and avocado and nuts like almonds. You should be eating a decent amount of fat. Changing your way of eating is not really about scarcity, it should be about abundance - especially an abundance of fruits and vegetables. Vegetable servings should be larger. I like to stick to a couple of servings of berries or melons (mostly in smoothies) and a lot of green vegetables because I need to keep my carbs relatively low. You can also add in a sweet potato and make small changes like making cauliflower into "rice" or "mashed potatoes" as well as using zucchini or spaghetti squash in place of pasta.

To me, it also seems like you're undertracking. Make sure you include any oils you use to cook with and weigh and measure your food if you're interesting in calories. There's also a Paleo team on Sparkpeople if you'd like to check in with them.

“I shall stay the way I am because I do not give a damn.”

-Dorothy Parker


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DIETITIANBECKY's Photo DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 26,543
1/5/14 8:14 P

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I see that you only have 1 day recorded, but here are some suggestions.

you need more protein rich foods: meat, poultry, seafood, beef, pork. Aim for at least 60-100 grams of protein daily

you need more vegetable servings---try sautéing in oil

you need more starchy vegetable servings--potatoes, sweet potatoes, corn, sweet peas, lima beans, etc

you need more fruits---aim for 3-5 servings daily

Becky
Your SP Registered Dietitian

MSTEEDAWN1's Photo MSTEEDAWN1 Posts: 16
1/5/14 8:08 P

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I recently started paleo and when I plugged in what I ate and what I am eating for tomorrow it is only like 600 calories what should I add to make sure my body doesn't go into starvation mode? Although, I have not been hungry at all with all the water I am drinking.



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KATHY_PALEO SparkPoints: (34)
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11/22/13 10:07 A

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I have been into paleo diet for a couple of months now and there is no turning back. I have never felt good and healthy as before. The concept that I have adhered to is eating purely organic, unprocessed food. I have eliminated grains in my diet, and so far so good.

Paleo Lifestyle tips and information paleolifestylehub.com/
III99III Posts: 1
10/6/13 12:31 P

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The theory is to eat what they had available, which is of course all natural foods. This would include sugar cane and even honey. Imagine though, the process of extracting honey from a live bee hive. I can't imagine that they did it very often due to being bitten, which is a natural law to limit sugar.
Regarding grains, unfortunately our grains are NOTHING like they were then, We have processed them and modified them to a point where they are unrecognizable from our true "ancient" grains. Easier to just stay away from them.

LICI79's Photo LICI79 Posts: 101
2/22/13 3:16 A

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I have just started a modified version of the paleo diet. I say modified because I have food allergies that prevent full paleo. So far it has been working for me, and my husband is actually on board.

It is foolish to wish for beauty. Sensible people never either desire it for themselves or care about it in others. If the mind be but well cultivated, and the heart well disposed, no one ever cares for the exterior.
Anne Bronte, Agnes Grey


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EVEINCOLORS's Photo EVEINCOLORS Posts: 685
2/19/13 10:10 P

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Coconut Bread

I’m not a big baker, but I can appreciate those who are. For those budding Primal bakers who still miss bread, why not try to make some with coconut flour? Slightly sweet and fairly light (as opposed to the denser breads made with almond meal), this coconut bread should do the trick.

Ingredients:
6 eggs
1/2 cups ghee (or butter)
1-2 tablespoon honey, depending on taste
1/2 teaspoon sea salt
1 teaspoon baking powder
3/4 cup coconut flour

Method:
Preheat your oven to 350. Whisk it all together, or blend in a food processor until all lumps are gone. Grease a bread pan with butter or coconut oil and pour your batter in. Bake for 40 minutes.

If we split it up into six servings each slice will, according to FitDay, have:
30.9 g fat
13.2 g carbs (9 g fiber)
8.35 g protein

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/coconut-flour/#ixzz2LPB56EPO




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DRACIL's Photo DRACIL Posts: 144
8/7/12 8:53 P

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Just want to point out that Paleo is not necessarily low-carb anymore though a lot of people found it via the low-carb route. In fact, if you hang around popular paleo sites/blogs (e.g. paleohacks), you'd find that many people are actually fairly high-carb now. It's more about avoiding toxins/food that cause inflammations or immune reactions/that aren't compatible with your personal genes.

It's not about some sort of re-enactment which is where a lot of the fallacies (from both sides) seem to come from. Unfortunately the name's stuck and I use it too for simplification. But the lifestyle itself is not some static thing but is constantly being tweaked and adapted as new information comes in.

Eating whole grains instead of refined grains is like smoking filtered cigarettes instead of unfiltered cigarettes

How much rat poison would you recommend people eat in moderation as part of a balanced diet? That's why I find the related popular sayings meaningless.
BEARCLAW6's Photo BEARCLAW6 SparkPoints: (27,813)
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8/3/12 10:15 A

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I have actually seen some critical comments about vegetarianism and veganism on SP....but typically they are in the threads that have the OP explicitly asking if they should do it and what are the drawbacks (shucks, even I have suggested people read 'The Vegetarian Myth' before going in that direction, but I always start those comments with something suggesting that it might be worth a try if done thoughtfully).

But....in general, the people who are the loudest advocated for Paleo/Primal and low-carb diets are the ones who found it works for them. And by works, I mean that they lost weight, kept it off and have the blood work to prove it is healthy for them. I am one of those people (low carb, not Paleo). People have just so solidly bought into the notion that all fat is bad for you, that saturated fat was created by evil scientists or enemy agents and that the only way to eat healthily is to cram moderate quantities of no-salt-added brown rice down our throats while strictly avoiding poisonous things like butter and bacon. Most of us grew up in a world where we should feel righteous if we are eating whole-wheat pasta but guilty if we are eating ribs. Guess what....some of us have found out that those ribs are MORE healthy for us than that highly-processed wheat substance. And to throw a Paleo twist into it....this is especially true if the ribs come from a grass-fed animal.

But guess what.....there are about eight different paths of scientific enquiry about healthy eating going on out there and so you can find research that supports your particular bias and makes someone who disagrees with you look like an uneducated monkey....no matter how weird or mainstream your eating habits. So what do we do? Do what works for you, is healthy (based on blood work, fitness and mood) and that leaves you satisfied. If that happens to be eating all raw fruit then we will call you a fruitatarian and you should just go for it. If that happens to be eating healthy 'wild' meats and vegetables then we will call you a Paleo dieter and you should go for it, too. I eat meat, vegetables, nuts and dairy while avoiding most grains, potatoes and sugars and have managed to transform my body from morbidly obese and unfit to fairly healthy and energetic, so call me.....healthy!

October 2010: 345 lbs
October 2011: 215 lbs
October 2012: 215 lbs
October 2013: 251 lbs (Doh, time to get back on track)

As a famous ancient philospher once mused..."Eat a steak, not a cake!"

Don't be active to lose weight, lose weight to be active!

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -- A. Einstein


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SALONKITTY's Photo SALONKITTY SparkPoints: (12,064)
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8/3/12 6:20 A

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Phen Phen? Please, taking any sort of diet pill is a far cry from eating healthy whole foods and exercising in a very sane, moderate fashion, which is the essence of the primal or paleo lifestyle. I think it's incredibly disingenuous to compare primal/paleo nutrition to a pharmaceutical drug. You say you've been researching carefully, but how can we tell when you make bizarre comparisons such as that?

I don't understand the big uproar over this lifestyle, either. Where does this weird attachment to grains come from? You don't see these sorts of argumentative threads when someone asks about being a vegetarian, and giving up meat.

I've been eating this way for nearly a month, and I've never felt better in my life. I agree with the comment that the original poster will not see much benefit by sampling this way of living for a week. Diligently follow the prescribed lifestyle for a month and see what you think then. I'm losing pounds and inches with ease. My skin and hair look great. I don't have "bathroom troubles" as the nurse seems so concerned with. I enjoy my meals very much. I have tons of energy, a clear mind, and a positive outlook on life. All this with NO CRAVINGS for anything--not sugar nor carbs, and without hunger pangs. My moods are stable. My arthritis is GONE. My dry and cracking heels are normal again. I sleep well. It's been great for me!

That is my experience so far. I have not had that same experience on "balanced" USDA ADA dietitian recommended low-fat diets. My experience on those sorts of diets was pretty much the opposite.

I eat lots of eggs, a variety of fish and meats, including organ meats now and then. I eat leafy greens with every meal, including breakfast. I use coconut oil, olive oil, avocado oil, and walnut oil, full fat REAL organic butter, and whatever animal fats I've got hanging around in little jars after cooking. I eat tons of veggies. I eat berries each day. I eat very healthy broth (which I make myself) from the bones of the meat I've consumed, not those weird MSG-laden stock cubes. I make my own mayonnaise, ketchup, etc.

I love it! My foods are whole and real, they taste great, and I know exactly what's in them. I feel very satisfied after each meal, and don't have any trouble getting my daily caloric needs met (contrary to what SP dietitian said). Caloric goals are easily met by eating in a sane fashion and not being afraid to add FAT to your meals.

Here is what I don't eat: Sugar. Processed foods. Dairy (I'm lactose intolerant). Grains (I'm sensitive to gluten). Legumes.

There isn't anything unhealthy or dangerous about this way of eating, and it's not a "fad". It's an entirely sustainable, and pleasant way of eating and living.

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It seems to be very important to some to convince those who are following a primal/paleo diet to switch. What's the problem? You are not being forced to follow this nutritional plan so why is it so important to try to stop other from doing so?

Edited by: AHAPPYLIFE at: 8/2/2012 (23:58)
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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/2/12 2:54 P

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I haven't eliminated all carbs from my diet. Only wheat. I still eat 4-5 servings of vegetables per day, and 1-2 servings low glycemic fruit.

Fully support looking into the options. I felt the same as you. I read as many books as possible before deciding on a plan and taking the plunge. It was still a leap of faith. In the end, it did turn out to be the right thing for me. And whatever option you chose, it will be the right one for you too if it leads to better wellness.

I'd recommend starting with "Why We Get Fat (and What to Do About it)" by Gary Taubes. It is not a diet book, just explains the alternative hypothesis. If it makes sense to you, then there are a number of paleo, primal, and low carb diet plans you can explore for more advice on what to eat and why.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/2/2012 (16:03)
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SROBERTS82's Photo SROBERTS82 Posts: 305
8/2/12 2:50 P

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I think it's important to understand what you are doing and why you are doing it before you go off whole-hog on some new fad diet. I've been around long enough to see diets come and go, and many of them leave people sicker than they started, though they don't know it until they have problems with their internal organs which are not noticable until it's too late. I narrowly avoided the phen-phen drug disaster in the 90s, which caused heart problems for people, though when it started everyone was touting how safe it was and how you'd be crazy not to try it.

So I am very skeptical, and before I would try eliminating all carbs from my diet and switching to bark and berries, I want to know why, and what the possible risks or side effects are. I am overweight, but generally healthy, and I want to make sure I only move in a healthier direction from here. I think it's always good to look into these diets though, because sometimes they might be too radical overall, but there may be a grain of truth in there that you can put to use.


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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/2/12 2:23 P

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The OT asked the question about how wheat, dairy, rice, and legumes came about if paleo diets say to limit them because 'caveman' didn't eat them.

The amusing thing is I'm not even following a paleo diet. I just limit wheat because I've found it is no good for me. I didn't need a nutritional study, expert or doctor to tell me that. I read books, tried it out, and determined for myself what works best for me. I encourage people to engage in critical thinking and explore alternative hypothesis, particularly if they had poor results on the standard diet as I did.

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What a fascinating turn this thread has taken HA. Really, if Paleo or Primal works for you, awesome! If not, try something else.

All this arguing about paleolithic lifespans or speculations on grains or dairy really mean NOTHING to me. What does mean something is how I feel while eating a certain way. Here are the important questions to me:
Do I feel well? Do I have more or less energy than before? How are my blood test results? Any health issues appear or disappear with this way of eating? Am I making progress with weight goals? Can I do all the things I want to do?

Since Primal eating is the only way I've been able to kick multiple health issues, achieve personal fitness and weight goals... I will continue to follow it (and tweak it to my needs) and yes I will "champion" it too. Others are also seeing positive results. For all the people saying not to try it, well just think: if you prevent someone from resolving long term health issues as I have done... Does that make you feel good? Is being "right" more important than health? That's your choice. I encourage people to experiment and research for themselves - be proactive with your own health because jokers online and well-meaning people really don't have any stake in your health. Only you do.

Frankly I don't care what anyone else says... I'm healthier than ever while ignoring advice from experts and Internet know-it-alls. Sorry if that sounds angry... But really I just implore everyone to find what works for them, whether paleo, vegan, low carb, high carb. Just be healthy!

Rant done. Carry on with your germ, grain, medieval debate.



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RACKMYBRAINS's Photo RACKMYBRAINS Posts: 435
8/2/12 1:09 P

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It's opinions and conclusions that are often wrong - or partially wrong.

Facts are just data. They don't change and can't be wrong. But people's interpretations of facts / data can quite often be incomplete, misguided, or outright wrong.



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8/2/12 12:55 P

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I've always believed it's important to question "facts" because they often turn out to be wrong.

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True believers will take any shred of faulty evidence and use it to justify their mistaken beliefs. A fully developed theory and etiology of germs isn't necessary to point out that many cultures knew that destroying clothes, burning bodies of the dead, etc. was important in halting or slowing the spread of disease.

Heck, even the Bible has things like "He must burn up the clothing, or the woven or knitted material of wool or linen, or any leather article that has the contamination in it, because the mildew is destructive; the article must be burned up."

Nothing that I've said is wrong, or ad hominem. I'm simply challenging your beliefs with facts.

And sure... staying on topic is important. But you and others brought up Guns, Germs and Steel and played it as evidence / support for your arguments.


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8/2/12 12:13 P

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Germ theory wasn't fully developed until 1870. Until then, bad omens and angry gods were to blame for illness.

Let's stay on topic instead of ad hominem. If you have any information to add about how medieval Europeans had superior nutrition because of their high grain/low protein diet compared to their paleo or neolithic counterparts, would love to hear it.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/2/2012 (12:13)
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8/2/12 11:45 A

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Oh good grief... "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Diamond is not only old (1997), it's flawed in its analysis. It's a speculative work made for politically correct entertainment. He makes ridiculous claims like, "the white man didn't know about germs." Even his primary theory about latitude is flawed even if you just simply look at a map of the fertile crescent.


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8/2/12 8:21 A

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I loved Guns, Germs and Steel!

VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/2/12 8:08 A

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SROBERTS82: You are on the right track. The reason why you are hungry and need another hit of food when there's stored bodyfat available unused is because of the hormone insulin. Elevated levels of insulin turn on fat storage and prevent fat burn, even if there is stored bodyfat available. If you're serious about learning the science based on actual clinical studies that go back decades, read "Why We Get Fat (and What to Do About It)". There's too much to explain in a single message board post.

The claim that prehistoric man only lived to 30-40 and was short are untrue. Decreased lifespan and increase in disease came about after agriculture. This was explained by Jarrod Diamond in "Guns, Germs and Steel". The bubonic plague almost destroyed Europe. Have you ever been to the old churches in Europe? I'm a small person, and the doorways are tiny. Old Europeans were smaller than today, and it wasn't because of their lack of grains. It was lack of protein.

Regarding wheat, once again, modern wheat is nothing like the ancient grain the Mesopotamian and Egyptians ate. Modern grain is not even like the "amber waves of grain" from 2 centuries ago. It was bred for fast growth and high yield. It is short with a huge head of seeds that can't hold itself up after a certain height. It is completely dependent on human intervention for fertilization and reproduction. People with celiac diseases cannot eat them at all. Read "Wheat Belly" for more info.

Domesticated animals have very short lifespans and early reproductive maturity (1-2 years in most cases). Human intervention can change them very rapidly. Lactase adaption to drink milk in adulthood is one of the few genetic adaptions our species has undergone. However, most of the world population is lactose intolerant. My mom's side of the family and I are all lactose intolerant. I can eat fermented dairy like cheese and yogurt that have cultures that eat the lactose. But I can't drink milk without IBS stomach upset.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/2/2012 (08:41)
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8/2/12 7:57 A

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SROBERTS82 - A very good article here www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=1496

I highly recommend reading Living the Low Carb Life by Jonny Bowden I recently borrowed it from the library and found very educational.

P.S. I think the Primal way of eating and exercise is far superior to Paleo for me.

Edited by: PARISAPRIL1 at: 8/2/2012 (07:58)
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8/2/12 12:44 A

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I have a coworker who's on this, so I was reading up on it. I'm highly skeptical of most of their claims. I wonder about this whole concept that people shouldn't eat grains and dairy - we've been eating them for a very long time, maybe tens of thousands of years. Our bodies change and adapt too. Look at how different our domesticated animals are after thousands of years of living with humans. We have undergone similar changes, no doubt.

The thing I want to know more about is their claim that you can change your body from relying on burning sugar, to burning stores of fat. I often feel that my body is constantly demanding another hit of food, when there's plenty of fat to run on that isn't getting used. But I did a little searching around and can't find any actual science to prove there is anything to these claims they are making. Does anyone have any links to real science behind that? Or is it just wishful thinking?

- Stephanie

"He who is outside his door has the hardest part of his journey behind him." – Dutch Proverb



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TAOZEN Posts: 237
8/1/12 11:36 P

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I just listened to a podcast with Robb Wolf. He does believe in his system. If I still ate meat, I would give it a try. If you eat lean meats and green veggies, then most of us would be healthy. But he told the host to eat eggs, bacon and coffee for every breakfast for a month? I am not sure I want to do that.

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8/1/12 10:44 P

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I have no issue with the Paleo diet. I've considered it myself. However, the claim that Paleo man didn't suffer from diabetes, heart problems and any other list of illness caused or exacerbated by diet needs to take into account that approximately 30 years of age, maybe 40 was pretty much the upper limit of Paleo life span. Also 5 ft tall was about the maximum height, possibly contributed to by poor nutrition. As for Paleo man not having arthritis, it seems to me, and my anthro classes were a long time ago, the Old Man of La Chapelle aux Saints was one classic argument for altruism in Neanderthal culture. It was obvious he was debilitated arthritis beyond the ability to care for himself. Someone would have had to hunt and gather for him and generally take care of him.

A healthy diet is great, I just don't think half claims should be made.



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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/1/12 9:55 P

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If it works for you, all power to you.

However, in the same breath you are dismissing a diet that has many beneficial properties based on some shakey premises.

"The most effective way to do it, is to do it." - Amelia Earhart

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RACKMYBRAINS's Photo RACKMYBRAINS Posts: 435
8/1/12 9:52 P

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@Vhalkyrie: It's one thing to find exactly what works for you. I'm glad you were able to find a plan that you're doing well on. But it's quite another thing entirely to champion a particular popular diet that is based on some shaky premises. Just saying.

We all have to find exactly the right thing that works for our individual bodies.

I'll be quite happy with my weight loss and health benefits from eating things like honeycrisp apples, seedless grapes, different breads, low-fat milk, yogurt, and cooked meats from modern-strain animals.


VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/1/12 9:41 P

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We have to cook modern meats and many vegetables due to modern contaminants. However, we are biologically capable of eating them raw. That is not the case with wheat grasses and legumes.

Honeycrisp apples are hybrids that have been bred to be super sweet. They are larger and sweeter than the apples that our grandmothers ate. Personally, I find them too sweet. I'll take an heirloom apple over those candy hybrids any day.

I am PRO diet that reduced my body weight, lowered blood pressure, raised HDL, lowered LDL/Trig. For me, that was a low-to no grain diet. Those "heart healthy" grains nearly gave me diabetes and high blood pressure.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/1/2012 (21:45)
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RACKMYBRAINS's Photo RACKMYBRAINS Posts: 435
8/1/12 9:32 P

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@Vhalkyrie: actually, the fact that you have to cook legumes and other things in order to eat them is really a non-issue to me. We have to cook meats, most fish, etc. before eating it so we don't get germs/contaminants/etc. Some legumes are more digestable than others, like chickpeas, black beans and lentils (compared with navy beans or lima beans). Then you get into individual genetic differences - some people have lactose intolerance, but it doesn't make sense to come down on people who can eat cheeses, milk, etc. without difficulty and just make a blanket statement that "they should be banned from our diets!"

And wheat has changed. Yes, people have been playing with genetics for a long time, but we've been doing that for hundreds and hundreds of years with cross-breeding and experimental hybrids, all sorts of things just from controlling plants through agriculture (not even getting into ultra-modern gene-level manipulation). I love blood oranges, honeycrisp apples, and seedless grapes. Did those exist before we started agricultural control? No, but that doesn't mean they're automatically bad and horrible.

Cows, chickens and pigs, even those from organic and super-healthy "green" farms, are different from their ancestral animals because of selective breeding.

Absolutely I'm going to be PRO any foods that are whole and healthily grown. But going totally "raw foods" or "paleo" (and there are tons of variants and disagreements on what's best even in those camps), is not the answer, IMO.

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Sadly, good science is boring. It doesn't have a trendy name. It is hard. It doesn't present instant solutions to a lifetime of abusing your body. It doesn't come in one book. It doesn't have one guru to follow. It takes time to read and understand it. It takes thinking for yourself. Good science doesn't buy radio ad space. It is hard to explain good science to your friends in less than 30 seconds. It is populated by sceptics who dash the dreams of those who find silver bullet solutions. There is no clinic for 'good science' at my local mall.

Paleo diet. Um ya.

If you bring forth that which is within you, that which is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth that which is within you, that which you do not bring forth will destroy you.


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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/1/12 9:24 P

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Paleo diets say to eat protein, vegetables and fruit and to limit grains, legumes and starches (foods that cannot be eaten naturally raw). I don't see any magic pill here.

I agree more people should do research into what it actually is.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/1/2012 (21:27)
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8/1/12 9:19 P

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Being an ER nurse for many years, I have seen a lot of damage to the body from the "latest diet." One person had exercised so hard, eaten only protein for who knows how long & damaged both kidneys.... Plus was so constipated, had to be sedated in order to digitally remove feces. The guy almost died. Read everything there is before you try it.
If it promises "to good to be true results." It's probably dangerous or a scam!
If it cost lots of money, It's probably a scam.
If it "just one pill a day for fantastic results" , probably a scam.
One of my dear friends, who is a nurse too, was actually under a doctor's care, suddenly depleted one of her electrolytes, it caused rapid decrease in heart rate, she ended up with a pacemaker, & her heart damage was NEVER reversed.
DO YOUR RESEARCH!! With the internet, no excuse for not doing your homework!

No one ever said, "Life was fair or easy." Work hard


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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/1/12 9:12 P

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RACKMYBRAINS: Interesting information. Thank you for sharing. Please feel free to address the rest of the context.

10,000 or 150,000 is a marginal within scope of 2.5 million years.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/1/2012 (21:16)
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AHAPPYLIFE's Photo AHAPPYLIFE SparkPoints: (100,819)
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8/1/12 8:52 P

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ALXM530, I found the article interesting but if you follow some of his links & continue to research his data, you'll find at least one of his statements highly misleading. I only had time to check one out which was national geographic. Make sure you read through that article & follow the link provided at the end of the article.

** Melissa **
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Be careful when you pass judgement on another. Life teaches us lessons in harsh ways when we are mean to others.

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RACKMYBRAINS's Photo RACKMYBRAINS Posts: 435
8/1/12 8:41 P

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Actually, recent evolutionary-anthropology research strongly supports that grains were used more than 30,000 years ago, and possibly as long ago as 150,000-200,000 years ago.

The 10,000 year thing is old information.


Edited by: RACKMYBRAINS at: 8/1/2012 (20:45)
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History of eating grains only goes back 10,000 years. Wheat is a grass - not a natural human diet. We can only eat it because it's been milled and cooked. Eating raw grain would be completely indigestible.

Same with legumes. Legumes are indigestible and toxic unless they are cooked. Heat destroys the toxins. They only became part of our diet after the advent of agriculture.

If you read the book "Wheat Belly", it tells you that the wheat we eat isn't even the same wheat our grandmothers ate. And it's not even close to the ancient wheat the Egyptians ate. Modern wheat has been modified for fast growth and high yield. Health effects were never tested.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/1/2012 (20:34)
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8/1/12 7:53 P

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I think the evolutionary connection made between the modern humans and the cavemen is totally wrong in the Paleo diet.

Paleo diet was exclusively the diet of Neanderthals en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal , which are extinct species closely related to humans. They were stronger, healthier and of larger build than modern humans. But they went extinct because they could not adapt.

Humans have a very long history of grains and legumes and vegetables and fruits, and little meat, by the way. It is likely that evolution favored those who could accommodate grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits.

On the other hand, modern humans have an extremely short history of refined carbs. No wonder they wreak havoc on our bodies.

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8/1/12 5:28 P

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I had to give up the caveman diet. My grocer ran out of cavemen. Now I'm humanitarian.

But seriously, I had to go on a diet very similar to this before "Paleo Diet" was ever heard of in order to get my immune system working again. This can be very beneficial for a lot of people, including people suffering from allergies. To understand how this works, spend some time, thought, and energy researching Leaky Gut Syndrome and how to heal it.

One tip, if a person has a wheat sensitivity, using Kamut can help. It's best to buy organic whole grains and grind them yourself; better yet to soak and sprout grains before using them.

It takes a long time to grow young. Pablo Picasso

I used to be much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

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8/1/12 11:58 A

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I don't eat "Paleo ", which is just another name for low carb. I eat Atkins, around 30 net carbs a day, 1600 calories. I have been off and on plan for 2 months now, enjoying summer a bit too much. The result is 30 lb gain, and eating a lot more, because cravings returned. My cholesterol numbers went up to 142, from 125, and my LDL from 51 to 72. I was cheating about 3 days a week, eating Subway, or noodles, not chocolate. I also had some cereal instead of my normal 4 Jumbo eggs with 2 Tbsp. butter. So healthy , carby food. I even cut my total fat, and saturated fat dropped huge.

So, I just restarted Atkins, and lost a lb the first day, figure it'll take me a month minimum to lose 30 lbs, so the summer was a waste, even if fun.

My problem is, while gaining all that weight from 218 to 248, I ate what my doctor would call excellent food. True, I ate too much, but that is what happens when I eat carbs. THAT is the cause of weight gain when people quit low carb. We usually eat way too much of carby foods, since we crave more, and more. Low carb, in whatever form, restricts hunger.

I don't feel sick, I just am not hungry. I don't think this is the best diet, or anything, but if you like the food, and have trouble with cravings, it is a choice. I eat 8-10 servings of vegetables to get my carbs, and maybe some cheese every so often. The rest is meat, eggs, and butter. I don't eat fatty portions of meat.

I also have to say that I am a heart patient with an ICD, and my cardiologist is ecstatic at the improvements to my heart function, BP, cholesterol etc. Across the board, I am doing better. Only in the last 3 years or so though. Before low carb, I was slowly getting worse, and worse. I was on diabetes meds, oxygen at night etc. After low carb, I can walk 1-3 hours a day, swim twice a week for 30 minutes, and do band workouts thrice weekly.

I hear all the time that this is " okay " to try for most people, but too risky for heart patients, unhealthy ppl, etc. I think the opposite. This diet IS extreme, and unless you can't control cravings, or in bad health, I wouldn't recommend it. It is a last resort.

Good news is, I am off my diabetes meds, and my Hemoglobin A1C is lower than my doctor's, 2 years later, all due to low carb. I am the ONLY patient out of 100's improving my bloodwork, and strength of my heart. Also the only one doing low carb. Maybe it is just a coincidence.???I don't think so.

"We can't solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them "

- Albert Einstein

“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
8/1/12 9:39 A

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I've been doing it a year. So losing bodyfat, gaining muscle, dropping blood pressure, raising HDL, and lowering LDL/triglycerides are all signs of being sick now?

Did you know that you go into ketosis every night when you go to sleep and wake up? Or whenever you're trying to lose weight? Ketosis is the byproduct of burning stored body fat. Something dieters usually find desirable.



Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 8/1/2012 (09:43)
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ALXM530 SparkPoints: (2,248)
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8/1/12 9:25 A

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Everyone please read this article before trying out the Paleo diet: www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jun/paleo2
.htm
"This diet works by starving the human body of carbohydrates in order to induce a state of illness (ketosis), which can result in weight loss. People become too sick to eat too much."

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7/29/12 7:37 P

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It has already been said here in one form or another that each person will have to figure out what works for him/her for health and fitness.

I have always been one to research and look for what's behind the "fad" or promotional topic. -- What I have found in studying about "Paleo" as well as "Eat to Live" and "Eat Clean" is the concerns with today's S.A.D. (standard American diet). In general, we are certainly more sick-making than health oriented in the plethora of food choices surrounding us. With that said, it stands to reason that each of us can decide what matters to us and what things to avoid based on our body's responses to food.

If food is fuel, than I want to use a quality fuel to feed my body. Not "food" that has been altered in so many way to no longer represent the original source. (And that doesn't mean that I'm perfect in my application! It is rather a direction I'm headed...)

A good number of the posters here present wisdom and understanding about what they choose to put into their bodies. -- Go with what works for you. Look at what is behind the "diets" suggested and sort through your best choice that causes you to feel and be healthy. (BTW I really don't think that just a week will give anyone a fair picture of how you respond to a given food choice. A month would be a more fair evaluation, in my opinion, to really see and experience either positives or negatives in terms of if you could choose to live a certain way w/ certain food limitations, etc.)

FYI - it was actually my daughter's MD that seconded the notion that Paleo was "good" way to go. What I have gleaned is that so much of our foods & the sources have been altered (GMO) and are in fact messing w/ the chemistry of our bodies (think soy). Too many people are suffering from diabetes, IBS, and many other intestinal ailments. And we tend to see medicine as a treatment instead of a band-aid. (ie. nothing has been "fixed" just covered up w/ potential side effects and a whole other list of "stuff"!)

Good luck to all of you in making wise choices for YOU for health and fitness!
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Edited by: BERRY4 at: 8/1/2012 (14:47)
"We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible."
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"Your mind will be like its habitual thoughts; for the soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts."
Marcus Aurelius (121-180 AD)





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7/29/12 4:45 P

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Trixie I don't think my post is mocking. I was just following the joke of another poster, and pointed out that there are many things which many of us can agree on that are not good to be doing in our modern culture. Just because we are more modern does not mean that we are doing all the right things and the ancestral peoples were doing the wrong things. But, I guess it is ok here on sp for people to make fun of the paleo "faddists" right and left, but as soon as one of the faddists carries along a joke, it is not OK?

Edited by: JUSTBIRDY at: 7/29/2012 (16:46)
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I think it's important to remember that each of us is an individual looking for healthy options with their own specific health problems taken into account. There are many good ideas with the paleo & primal way of nutrition, & many different options. One of the misleading statements here is that you can't get enough of the calcium with this dietary regimen. Studies have shown that you can absorb more calcium from certain vegetables than you can from dairy: Calcium absorption from milk is approximately 32 percent. Figures for broccoli, Brussels sprouts, mustard greens, turnip greens, and kale range between 40-64 percent (Heaney RP, Weaver CM. Calcium absorption from kale. Am J Clin Nutr. 1990;51:656-657. AND Weaver CM, Plawecki KL. Dietary calcium: adequacy of a vegetarian diet. Am J Clin Nutr. 1994;59(suppl):1238S-41S.

Many individuals with intestinal discomforts/diseases, auto immune diseases, etc have found relief with this program. I understand that there will be people who don't feel it's healthy or would not try it themselves. That is their choice but it is not for that person to ridicule or forbid me or anyone else from attempting something that may work in the long run for them. This program was recommended to me by a medical doctor to remove possible allergens that could be causing my health problems. Some foods will be reintroduced after a period of 6 to 8 weeks &, as long as they are tolerable by my system, may remain a part of my diet or be forever excluded.

This is not an all or nothing thing here folks because we are not all identical or have the same health issues. Try to be a little more tolerable, supportive, & understanding of each others differences.

** Melissa **
....................Alaska

Be careful when you pass judgement on another. Life teaches us lessons in harsh ways when we are mean to others.

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ALDEBARANIAN's Photo ALDEBARANIAN Posts: 1,021
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You know, there are some pretty wide variations in what kind of diet works for various people. Every person has various strengths and weaknesses in their bodies, at different times of their lives, and in the various cultural influences they're surrounded with. We may be able to eat certain things when our health is at a peak, but need to avoid the same things when our immune systems are somewhat compromised. The definition of wellness is pretty elusive. Anyone remember when "homeostasis" was the big wellness buzzword?

I well remember "The New York Times Natural Foods Cookbook", and the Adele Davis books, back in the daze when healthy eating meant brewer's yeast, blackstrap molasses, and wheat germ. A few years back we had "Eat Right For Your Type". Anyone still using their juicer much? How about their grain mill? Now it looks like Crock Pot cooking's trying to make a comeback.

The point is, each of us can benefit by finding the things that work for us, and going with it. It's important to stay flexible, though. What works today may not work tomorrow, or may become too restrictive. Faith certainly plays a big part. Believing that a thing is right may help make it work for the individual. Those eating choices may be contraindicated for someone else, though. Paint someone else's choices with too broad a brush of criticism and denigration and you may paint yourself into a corner.

A thing we can be sure of - losing a sense of balance, perspective, and humor will eventually torpedo any diet or lifestyle. The saying used to be, "Never trust anyone over 30." My take on that now is, "Never trust anyone who can't laugh at their own beliefs." We are, all of us, a pretty humorous lot, after all, and one thing's certain. We're all of us getting older, and immortality's the province of a different discipline.

Of course no knock knock jokes. Caves didn't have doors. I found that out riding with Dr Who. Record labels have Doors.

It takes a long time to grow young. Pablo Picasso

I used to be much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

Strong is what happens when you run out of weak. Healthy Inspiration www.sparkpeople.com/resource/quotes.
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VHALKYRIE's Photo VHALKYRIE Posts: 2,017
7/29/12 12:25 A

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For years I was stalled on my weight loss. All I did was stopped following the dietary advice to eat 3 servings of whole grains per day. I cut down to once or twice a week. My fat finally started coming off again. Whole grain servings are very calorie dense, and took up too much room in my calorie allowance. I replaced my grain serving with other healthy foods, like avocados and nuts. It worked for me, and I don't have any intention of going back to my old way of eating. Been doing it for a little over a year. So it's not a fad diet for me.

Edited by: VHALKYRIE at: 7/29/2012 (00:26)
"The most effective way to do it, is to do it." - Amelia Earhart

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HOUNDLOVER1's Photo HOUNDLOVER1 Posts: 8,095
7/28/12 10:26 P

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I eat a paleo-type diet and exclude all grains, beans and some sweet fruits but include dairy. I eat a lot of fat, including saturated fat, but only from grass-fed sources and coconut oil and olive oil. I agree that the term paleo is not necessary helpful for a diet that is essentially low-carb but without counting carbs. There is a wide range of what people on these diets eat and there is a large number of researchers who are convinced that paleo/primal/low-carb diets are much healthier for us than grain/legume based diets. Most of these diets are high fat, but not high protein, with the exception of South Beach which is really in a different category.
For more information please look at the book by Volek and Phinney here:

www.amazon.com/The-Art-Science-Carbohydrat
e-Living/dp/0983490708

Also take a look at this blog:
eatingacademy.com/
I want to recommend that anyone who reads articles about nutrition look for references to research and publications that the article is based on. Whenever this information is not provided I would be suspicious.

You can talk to God all you want and that's great, but the changes happen when you start listening to him.

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN OTHERS.




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TRIXYMAHOGANY's Photo TRIXYMAHOGANY SparkPoints: (9,222)
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7/28/12 7:29 P

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justbirdy, I found your post mocking pretty much what everyone else eats to be pretty offensive too. So yeah.

Because your candle burns too bright, well I almost forgot it was twilight


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JUSTBIRDY's Photo JUSTBIRDY SparkPoints: (72,518)
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7/28/12 6:10 P

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Rack, your post is really offensive

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JUSTBIRDY's Photo JUSTBIRDY SparkPoints: (72,518)
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7/28/12 6:09 P

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Many people do use the paleo diet to lose weight, especially belly fat.

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JENMC14's Photo JENMC14 Posts: 2,707
7/28/12 10:27 A

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I may be wrong on this, but I don't believe that Paleo eating is meant for weight loss. It is meant to be more of a lifestyle diet like being a vegan is a lifestyle diet. I have looked at it, and I find aspects of it interesting, but I have no desire, or reason to believe it will benefit me, to cut my dairy, oatmeal and beans from my diet. It does seem to be very high in fat, encouraging use of oils and fats, which isn't necessarily bad in and of itself, but if you're comsuming more fat, you're likely consuming more calories. You'd really, really have to watch portion control to lose weight this way, I think.

I am 5'4".
Starting Weight (4.6.11) 164.6
First Goal 130 - Reached September 2011
Currently maintaining under 120 and working on changing my mental image of myself!


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RACKMYBRAINS's Photo RACKMYBRAINS Posts: 435
7/28/12 10:25 A

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Has a mass-produced, fad diet book ever helped in the long-term?

Shaky logic, silly premises, limited research, and a few good nutrition tips are all it takes to write a diet book.

Do you really need a "hook" to change your diet such that you eat healthy foods as opposed to junk food, high sodium, and high sugar/fat foods? Or can you skip the fad book of the month and just follow commonly accepted advice from trained nutritionists (much of which is free)?



JUSTBIRDY's Photo JUSTBIRDY SparkPoints: (72,518)
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7/28/12 9:47 A

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no knock knock jokes? are you sure? No more cave stuff for me, I'll go back to eating our modern genetically-modified grains, a bit of feedlot meat, served with with gobs of trans fat, all in moderation of course.

Leader of "Leptin and Cold Thermogenesis" sparkteam. www.sparkpeople.com/myspark/groups_i
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ALDEBARANIAN's Photo ALDEBARANIAN Posts: 1,021
7/28/12 9:07 A

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I was reading an article about how eating whole grains are better than eating refined grains, and how to recognize whole grain bread in the grocery store. My oh my, what a controversy it stirred up! There were a good five pages of comments, many of them pointing out that cavemen didn't eat bread, or if they did, they soaked and fermented the grain before they ate it. This led me ponder a few points.

1. Cavemen didn't shop in grocery stores.
2. Cavemen didn't drive cars.
3. Cavemen didn't sleep in beds with nice blankets.
4. We don't really know what cave men ate, we weren't there to watch them, it's all speculation.
5. Cavemen didn't have knock knock jokes.
6. Cavemen are all dead.
www.sparkpeople.com/resource/funnies-carto
on.asp?id=66


Edited by: ALDEBARANIAN at: 7/28/2012 (09:23)
It takes a long time to grow young. Pablo Picasso

I used to be much older then, I'm younger than that now. Bob Dylan

Strong is what happens when you run out of weak. Healthy Inspiration www.sparkpeople.com/resource/quotes.
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JENG829's Photo JENG829 SparkPoints: (14,855)
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2/26/12 9:10 P

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To answer the OP's questions, here is a basic explanation of the primal view of grains & legumes:
www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-g
rains/#axzz1nXgRPbbn

www.marksdailyapple.com/beans-legumes-carb
s/#axzz1nXkolErP


Honestly, as someone who follows a paleo-ish way of eating, the history does not interest me at all. Frankly, calling it the Paleo diet is a disservice to the basic premise, which is to focus on nutrient-dense, natural/unprocessed foods, avoiding things that may cause inflammation, sensitivities, or other side effects.

Also, keep in mind that the many people who follow a paleo or primal lifestyle have different levels of strictness, and different levels of carb/protein/fat intake to suit their needs. Some folks never eat grains, while others may partake in them from time to time (depending on their own body's reactions to it). Some folks are diabetic and must keep carbs low, while others may be endurance athletes and eat plenty of carbs. Some eat dairy, some do not. It is not a one size fits all approach.

If you really want accurate information on the Paleo Diet, I suggest you reference the Mark's Daily Apple site above or Robb Wolf's site: www.robbwolf.com/faq/#getstarted or ask your question in the Paleo Diet or Ancenstral Health group here on SP.



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SAHASARA's Photo SAHASARA Posts: 358
2/26/12 8:57 P

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Thank you for the info. I guess as long as everyone is taking supplements and can do it the rest of their lives then that's good. I am only going to try it a week because the people at work state they are less tired so I will test that (even only after a couple days they are. If anything it will at least teach me new recipes and help me shrink my appetite (I hope). Thank you for the comments.



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DIETITIANBECKY's Photo DIETITIANBECKY Posts: 26,543
2/26/12 7:20 P

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I recently researched this diet and wrote a review for Sparkpeople, but it is not on the site yet.
In a nutshell one would eat foods that were available during the paleolithic time period. This would be meats, fish, fresh fruits, fresh vegetables, nuts, seeds. Food not allowed would be all grains, beans, legumes, peanuts, potatoes, sugar, processed oils, salt, alcohol.

The idea is that paleo people did not suffer from the diseases of modern time and that this eating plan is therefore healthier. There is NO research to support this theory.

If one wishes to eat according to the plan, here are the pros, cons and tips to keep it safe.
(yes, this is lifted from my article that will be on the site soon).

Pros:
Some of the healthier nutritional aspects of the Paleolithic Diet include:
•avoidance of refined and overly processed foods,
•decrease in excessive carbohydrate intake, especially unhealthy carbohydrate type foods,
•avoidance of sugar and salt intake,
•appropriate protein intake, especially when lean meats are used in the correct portions,
•variety and abundance of fruit and vegetable intake, and
•adequate fat intake, especially when healthy fat sources are used such as fish, nuts, and fruits and vegetables in the correct portion.

Cons:
Some of the nutritional pitfalls with the eating plan include:
•A complete restriction of several key groupings of food (grains, milk, legumes) makes it more difficult to meet the nutritional needs of you and your family.
•Many will find the restrictive nature of the eating plan difficult to maintain for a lifetime.
•A 9.3% increase in income is needed to consume a Paleolithic Diet that meets the majority of all daily recommended nutrient intakes. It can become even more expensive with the use of grass-fed and organic meats, wild-caught fish, and organic fruits and vegetables.
•Since dairy products are eliminated, it is practically impossible to meet calcium intake needs. Calcium can be obtained from greens and other foods, but the calcium is not as readily available for the body to use. Since milk is also fortified with vitamin D this nutrient also becomes a deficiency concern. Therefore supplementation is necessary for those using this diet, even though supplements were not used by cavemen.
•The diet can be lacking in key vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, plant sterols, and fiber due to the elimination of all whole grains, beans, lentils, legumes, and peanuts. All these foods have been shown to have health-promoting qualities.
•Depending on the food selections, the Paleo Diet may be excessively low in carbohydrate intake, too high in animal protein intake and too high in fat and saturated fat intake, which could increase one’s risk for certain diseases, such as heart disease, renal disease, gout, osteoporosis, and certain cancers.

Sparkpeople to the rescue:
Talk to your doctor before following the Paleo Diet to make sure that the eating plan meets your medical needs. For several weeks, track you and your family’s food intakes using the Sparkpeople food tracker. Be sure to add the following additional nutrients to be tracked: calcium, vitamin D, saturated fat, fiber, thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, folic acid, copper, selenium, and magnesium. If you find that any of these nutrients are not within a healthy range, seek additional assistance from a Registered Dietitian in your area. The dietitian can help tweak the plan to assure that you and your family’s nutritional needs are met through your food selections and/or vitamin-mineral supplementation.

Hope this helps answer your question.
SP Registered Dietitian Becky




ANARIE's Photo ANARIE Posts: 12,387
2/26/12 6:15 P



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That's a big part of the problem with the paleo diet. It's based on what people believe about the cavemen, not on the scientific evidence. We honestly don't know all that much about what the cavemen ate, and we DO know that they had many of the diseases that the "Paleo diet" authors say they didn't get. (There's a claim that the cavemen didn't get arthritis, for example, when we have paleolithic skeletons that were so badly crippled by arthritis that it's probably what killed them.)

Paleolithic hominids (ancestors of humans, but not exactly the same as us) were hunters and gatherers. They hadn't figured out agriculture, so they didn't have a lot of the plant foods we have. That much is true. Humans cultivate new plants all the time, and they change them by saving the seeds from the ones that turn out a little different and a little better. For example, carrots didn't use to be orange. Just a few hundred years ago, they were white. One day someone pulled some up that were a little more yellow and tasted better, so they let the rest of that batch go to seed and planted them again. Each year they saved seeds from the brightest-colored ones, until within a few years they were getting orange ones. For another example, corn came from a special type of grass. Somebody noticed that the seeds on that grass tasted good and made their children grow better, so they started saving the biggest seeds and the ones that grew in little ears, and eventually the corn looked like what we grow now. Almost all of our plant foods developed this way.

The cavemen didn't know how to save seeds, so they couldn't do that. So Paleo dieters have decided that you shouldn't eat grains because the cavemen didn't have very many of them. What's not logical, though, is that "Paleo diets" include all sorts of foods that the paleolithic proto-humans didn't have, either. They had some little wild berries, and in some places they might have had dates, but they didn't have apples or oranges or bananas or peaches or apricots. They had acorns and something resembling black walnuts, but they didn't have English walnuts, almonds, or cashews, and they had nothing even resembling peanuts. (Peanuts are legumes, so if you shouldn't eat beans, I don't see how they let you eat peanuts!) They had grass and water greens and dandelion greens, but they didn't have spinach or kale or cabbage. They DID have roots similar to sweet potatoes and yucca, but the Paleo diet says you shouldn't eat those. They had venison and in some places bison, but they didn't have beef or lamb, and their poultry and pork came from animals just as different from modern pigs and chickens as wild wheat grass is from wheat.

The other thing to question is why you think the cavemen's diet was good. The Paleo diet authors say that our modern diet causes diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, and certain kinds of cancer. Do you notice anything about those diseases? None of them would show up in your bones, and most of them start in middle age. Paleolithic proto-humans didn't write things down. The only way we can know what they died of is by looking at their bones. That means there's no way to know whether or not they got heart disease and diabetes or pancreatic cancer, because you can't see those things in bones, and also because most of them died before they were old enough to get heart disease or type 2 diabetes or prostate cancer.

And even if they didn't get those diseases, there's no reason to believe it's because of what they ate. Those are also called "lifestyle diseases;" they're associated with being sedentary as much as with diet. Paleolithic people were moving all day long, out hunting and gathering. They generally walked about 15 miles a day when they were gathering and might have run eight to twelve hours on a hunt. If you do that, you probably won't get heart disease either. Two hundred years ago, farmers who ate the exact opposite of "paleo" didn't have a lot of heart disease or diabetes, either. We don't live like cavemen, so why should we eat like them?

So the answer to your question is that beans and grains were developed by Neolithic and Bronze Age humans out of wild plants. But the answer to the question you didn't ask is that so is virtually every other food we eat, with the exception of most fish (and Paleolithic people apparently didn't eat fish. Neolithic people did, but there are places where Neanderthals apparently starved right next to a stream full of fish and shellfish.) Even if you don't eat beans and grains, you're still not really eating what the cavemen did. And there's no reason to think it would be healthy if you did.



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JASONZ's Photo JASONZ Posts: 92
2/26/12 5:58 P

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I sense that "Paleo" is just another in a long list of diet fads. There is probably some good info in the book, but I wonder if someone could eat that strictly on a permanent basis.



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SAHASARA's Photo SAHASARA Posts: 358
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I'm not looking for anyone to tell me to just track my calories/fat, etc in Spark but I just want everyone's opinion because I don't understand a few things. There are a few people at my work trying this and it is a diet that is the "caveman's diet". So they say we only eat stuff that was available to cave men. I have a question. Where do beans, wheat and rice originate if that was the case. And sugar cane is grown too right? How would we have these things if they didn't have them back then. Is it based on the location of these cave men. Just wondering what everyone's opinions are.



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