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DOMs, Leg day, and running



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BREWMASTERBILL
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8/21/13 8:40 A

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5/3/1 can be done in 30 minutes or less with the smallest template. You're adding accessory work, which is fine. I've done 5/3/1 w/ accessory work and the first 2-3 weeks were a huge challenge to my work capacity. Also, the accessory work involved moves I hadn't done in quite some time so the DOMS were pretty huge. The one thing I can say is that it will get better as your ability to handle increased work capacity grows. I'd suggest you stick it out if you want to continue with this program. Another option is to drop the accessory movements, stick with the main lifts and run.

Personally DOMS symptoms decrease pretty dramatically when I do cardio. It's short term relief, but I'll take it.

Simple, Effective Strength Training for Beginners www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_jo
urnal_individual.asp?blog_id=5425006


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SERGEANTMAJOR
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8/20/13 8:06 P

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Here are a couple of suggested strength workouts using weights. They can be modified for resistance bands if those are preferred

CIRCUIT STRENGTH WORKOUT

Workout A
• Squats with barbell or dumbbells 8 repetitions
• Bent leg dead lift with barbell 8 repetitions
• Standing press with barbell or dumbbells 8 Repetitions
• Bent rowing with dumbbell each arm 8 repetitions
• Standing lat pull downs 8 Repetitions

Workout B
• Goblet squats with dumbbell or kettlebell 8 Repetitions
• Straight leg dead lift 8 repetitions
• Standing alternate press with dumbbells 8 repetitions
• Standing rows (cable machine or resistance bands) 8 repetitions
• Standing horizontal press outs (cable machine or resistance bands) 8 repetitions


Perform all exercises without a break, rest 90 seconds and repeat 2 or 3 more times. Do a 5 minute bodyweight exercise warm up before and 5 minute stretch cool down after. Do three times a week on alternate days. Use 60% of you single repetition maximum for each exercise. If unable to make all the listed repetitions on succeeding circuits do the maximum you can with proper form working toward getting all repetitions in all sets before increasing weights. Workouts can be alternated by workout or by the week.

Any questions or comments are welcome






It is called WORK-ing out for a reason.

I said getting fit was simple, I did not say it was easy.

Cardio burns calories, strength work burns fat.

Eat well to lose weight, exercise to get fit

You can not build a six pack using twelve packs


Often when we seek a magic bullet for fitness we end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

"I think calories are little germs in food that all moms are afraid of" Dennis the Menace



JENNILACEY
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8/20/13 4:00 P

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ChrissyPa,

I don't know SergeantMajor's exact routine but it's probably fairly similar to what I do.

Lower: deadlifts, squats, lunges (I do an extra exercise of choice but not necessary).
Upper: overhead press, bench, pull ups or rows (again, I do an extra exercise but not necess.)

Total time for 6 exercises is approximately 30-40 minutes.

Lift a weight that is challenging enough that you reach muscle fatigue in 5-8 reps before moving up in weight. These 6 exercises should hit every muscle in your body. Lower reps with a heavier weight will help you to increase strength quickly.

Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 8/20/2013 (16:16)

Take your focus off the Marshmallow.

www.leangains.com/2010/01/marshmallo
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"Toning" is marketing muscles to women who are afraid if they pick up a barbell, they'll leave the gym looking like She-Hulk. If you don't want to get bulky, lift heavy!

I can bench Nicole Richie, eat more than she does in a day before noon, I have a good 20 lbs on her but could still wear her pants.


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CHRISSYPA
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8/20/13 2:16 P

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I was thinking the same thing! I am ST for about an hour and 20 minutes 2x a week for full body. I would love to cut that down. I am a beginner but would love to have your routine Sergeantmajor! Can you share?

SW 234
CW 195
GW 125


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R383CC48
Posts: 1,022
7/25/13 4:46 P

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@Sergeantmajor
That routine sounds most excellent, could you share that with me too?

4ft.11
Going for a healthy BMI.


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WADINGMOOSE
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7/25/13 9:45 A

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My goals are quite different than yours, but I run 3x a week and lift 2.

BUT, I have run with DOMS and after the first 5-10 minutes it didn't bother me much. I also found that the run helped with the DOMS recovery.

Here's a quick article in runners world about it. Looks like they now believe a good warmup can help reduce it so that might be something to try.

www.runnersworld.com/race-training/why-del
ayed-onset-muscle-soreness-good-thing




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KYLAR_STERN
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7/25/13 8:42 A

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Sergeant. I'd still like to hear it, pretty sure It'd be very similar to what I was doing before. Took me about 45 minutes which was the right amount of time for being in the gym in the morning before work. Instead of filling this thread, because I would like to hear the pros and cons with muscle recovery on running on the day I hit legs vs. running sore in the following days, I can message you what I was doing before and what I'm doing now if that's alright.

On second thought, message me your routine and we can start a little conversation that way since we both agree (sadly getting rarer on this site) that heavy compound lifts are the no brainier way to go.Possibly tweak one or both of our stuff. Old routing was basically SS with few more pulling type motions, new thing is 5/3/1 with the same addition counter work to the main lifts

I'm 5'8" stinks being shorter
Summer 2011- 215 lbs. Peak weight
Christmas 2011- 200 lbs
Start of summer 2012- 170 lbs
September 2012- Made my goal of competing at feather weight for Bjj (under 149 with a little water cut)

Now I'm just trying to maintain around 152ish to leave me in easy cutting range. Also trying to relax and eat more like a normal person now, balancing enjoying life and staying healthy.


 current weight: 23.4  over
 
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SERGEANTMAJOR
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7/24/13 10:58 P

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Kylar,

"Couldn't push myself hard enough going full body 3x a week without being stuck there for close to 2 hours."

Sorry but I can give you a full body workout which will waste you in thirty minutes. No more than 8 and most often on 6 exercises per session for no more than 3 sets per exercise.. All full body and compound movement exercises, no isolation work, no small muscle group time wasters and no sets of more than 8 repetitions. Add 5 minutes for a warm up and 5 minutes for a cool down stretch then hit the showers. It is about quality over quantity.



It is called WORK-ing out for a reason.

I said getting fit was simple, I did not say it was easy.

Cardio burns calories, strength work burns fat.

Eat well to lose weight, exercise to get fit

You can not build a six pack using twelve packs


Often when we seek a magic bullet for fitness we end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

"I think calories are little germs in food that all moms are afraid of" Dennis the Menace



KYLAR_STERN
KYLAR_STERN's Photo SparkPoints: (21,107)
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7/24/13 7:45 P

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What you said Coral, about how little opportunity to run there is, is how I'm feeling now. Then I'm like, what if since there's only 2 days I'm not sore to run I get invited out golfing after work or something? Then I'm only hitting the pavement once a week. If running were more important to me I'd switch some things, but the lifting is my focus and I like my gym routine so I'm sticking with the 4 day. Couldn't push myself hard enough going full body 3x a week without being stuck there for close to 2 hours.

Yep, I know DOMs isn't an actual injury, I was just wondering which is better for recovery. Running when stiff and sore the next day, or running later in the day since I'm actually feeling better then, but the muscles were worked fresher and not sure when moe of the recovery is going on.

I went for a run today. Everything was super tight, like that feeling your skin is 2 sizes too small. I went nice and slow, like probably dropped close to a 9 min mile pace for 2.5 miles. It was doable and I just really want the bit of calorie burn from it honestly so I think it'll work. Currently stretching really well right now and hoping I can walk tomorrow. It was getting iffy at the office during parts of the day haha.

What you said about the chair (and stairs :'( ) Zorbs is exactly what I mean. Mine today didn't make me feel anymore fatigued which is different than you, but the soreness.

Impressive pound 4 pound numbers by the way. Good work



I'm 5'8" stinks being shorter
Summer 2011- 215 lbs. Peak weight
Christmas 2011- 200 lbs
Start of summer 2012- 170 lbs
September 2012- Made my goal of competing at feather weight for Bjj (under 149 with a little water cut)

Now I'm just trying to maintain around 152ish to leave me in easy cutting range. Also trying to relax and eat more like a normal person now, balancing enjoying life and staying healthy.


 current weight: 23.4  over
 
25
12.5
0
-12.5
-25


ZORBS13
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7/24/13 7:18 P

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I find I don't feel ST DOMS at all when I'm running..but it does manifest itself in the form of fatigue.

So I schedule easy paced runs after ST days..I know this is unusual, I can deadlift 155 (keep in mind I'm a 5'2", 120ish pound girl) and curse when I stand up from a chair, but running won't be a problem.

edited to add: I don't do splits, I do full body 2x/week. When I decided to prioritize running over ST, I gave up the 3rd ST day.



Edited by: ZORBS13 at: 7/24/2013 (19:19)
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R383CC48
Posts: 1,022
7/24/13 6:23 P

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I run sore because I know the soreness of DOMS is just DOMS and not an actual injury, if that makes any sense.

DOMS is just my muscles building themselves back up because lifting makes little, tiny tears in them.

Sometimes for me the running actually makes the pain from DOMS go away more quickly too. But I usually stack my workout too and do weights then running on the same day.

That being said, if I think I am sore because of an injury then I don't run.

I don't know if this is helpful to you at all, but it is what I do.

4ft.11
Going for a healthy BMI.


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-CORAL-
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7/24/13 5:43 P

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I am constantly in a dilemma with leg strength days and running. I am sore for two days after I do leg strength so if I waited to run until I wasn't sore anymore, I would have 3 days between runs, for instance if I ran on Monday, did leg work on Tuesday, was super sore Wednesday and Thursday, then I could run on Friday again. That just doesn't sit well with me. So I myself tend to skimp on strength training because I've come on here and asked about it and the advice was "don't run if your legs are sore" which puts me in the dilemma I've described.

Coral in Portland, OR


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KYLAR_STERN
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7/24/13 4:55 P

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Yeah. I definitely lift to fatigue. I know that the 9-10 hours isn't enough for them to recover, heck 18 hours isn't since they're sore right now. But they are much less sore and tight the afternoon of the day I lift than they are the day after so I was wondering about that.

I'm only looking to run 2-3 miles on the short days, and maybe 5 on the longer days. Really want to get some cardio in to stay in shape this way. Haven't much of an opportunity for my sport recently

I'm 5'8" stinks being shorter
Summer 2011- 215 lbs. Peak weight
Christmas 2011- 200 lbs
Start of summer 2012- 170 lbs
September 2012- Made my goal of competing at feather weight for Bjj (under 149 with a little water cut)

Now I'm just trying to maintain around 152ish to leave me in easy cutting range. Also trying to relax and eat more like a normal person now, balancing enjoying life and staying healthy.


 current weight: 23.4  over
 
25
12.5
0
-12.5
-25


ARCHIMEDESII
ARCHIMEDESII's Photo SparkPoints: (131,176)
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7/24/13 4:30 P



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Kylar,

I'm guessing you lift to fatigue. If you lift to fatigue, your legs should be so tired you don't have energy to run 9-10 hours later. Do you feel that 9-10 hours is enough time for your legs to suffiicently recover from your strength training sessions ? That doesn't seem like a lot of time to me.

I recently decided to start training for a half marathon. One thing I discussed with a running coach is the necesity of recovery time. As we age, our bodies do need more time to recover between workouts. For me, the coach let me know, I'm not a kid anymore. So, I need to factor in more recovery time. If you're strength training 4 times a week, you really aren't giving your body a whole lot of recovery time if you want to add in some runs too.

Running is very hard on a person's body. that's why all the running programs encourage people to take rest days allowing their muscle fibers time to repair.

You can try running at night if you want, but don't be surprized if you end up fatigued really quickly. Keep in mind that you're not really resting during that 9-10 hours. You're at work plugging away. that's really not enough recovery time. Two workouts in one day strikes me as a bit too much even for someone who's active.


Edited by: ARCHIMEDESII at: 7/24/2013 (16:36)


KYLAR_STERN
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7/24/13 4:16 P

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So I recently switched my workout from a full body, 3x a week to 5/3/1 which is 4 days a week, two days of upper and two days of lower.

M- overhead press 5/3/1, chest assistance
T- Squat 5/3/1 dead assist
R- Bench 5/3/1, shoulder assistance
F- Deadlift 5/3/1, squat assistance

With that set up, I was planning on a short run Mondays, longer one Wednesday, and one day a weekend if I'm around. But man, my legs are so sore from hitting them heavy with the squats, and then the volume with the assistance work they're all sorts of tight today still (Wednesday) They didn't feel at all like this Tuesday after lifting. I lift in the morning before work

Would it be beneficial or matter at all to run after work, like 9-10 hours after lifting, on my leg days since the soreness always hits me the following day?

I'm 5'8" stinks being shorter
Summer 2011- 215 lbs. Peak weight
Christmas 2011- 200 lbs
Start of summer 2012- 170 lbs
September 2012- Made my goal of competing at feather weight for Bjj (under 149 with a little water cut)

Now I'm just trying to maintain around 152ish to leave me in easy cutting range. Also trying to relax and eat more like a normal person now, balancing enjoying life and staying healthy.


 current weight: 23.4  over
 
25
12.5
0
-12.5
-25


 
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