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RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
11/20/13 3:57 P

I have admitted that I did not know of the speakers problems several times now Love, and you know that. I thought, since she was a doctor, she might be more credible. I even admit that her work needs to be validated by others. This video is not meant to suggest low carb is a good diet. That does not need to be proven.

This video was posted because I was amazed that someone got the same results as I have gotten. Let me explain that. Most low carb dieters aren't chosen from sick people. They do studies on the healthy, for obvious reasons. This doctor, along with, Dr, Atkins, treated thousands of patients, who had similar issues as I have.. congestive heart failure, diabetes, high cholesterol. The reason I posted this video was about the improvements she noted in those patients, not to " promote " low carb.

These improvements would mean little to healthy low carbers. You can't use low carb to improve ejection fraction on a healthy person. So this video was presented to say " Look, someone else had similar results as I did ", because 99% of the videos, or studies done on low carb dieters, wouldn't have those improvements, due to the simple reason, that they wouldn't be that sick at the start of the diet.

If I did make that claim, what would you think? If I said " Love 4 Kitties.. if you start Atkins today, in a few years I can make it so you reverse the low ejection fraction of your heart! ". Your response would be, I don't have that problem.

So you are accusing me of using this video to promote low carb to a bunch of healthy people.. to cure their diseases? Lmao.

I admit I support low carb, and why shouldn't I? It has saved my life. I did use the word promote once in a post, which you latched on to, ignoring any part of the debate, as you tend to do. What if I was to reciprocate? If I saw a misspelling of some word, and extrapolated that you were a moron from that, and accused you of being a moron every time you posted, instead of actually addressing what you have said?

Anyone can see that her patients aren't representative of the average population, or low carbers even, so the results would only apply to me here. I thought that was obvious, and explained it after finding it was not. Even clarified why I posted the video. I shouldn't have to even have a reason, but I did explain it. This was so this thread didn't devolve into a low carb/ low fat war. We do that all the time, on plenty of other threads.

On those threads, you don't seem to actually want to debate, while they would all love to, but instead, you haven't written one word about the topic. I could say that the same is true here, but why debate the healing property of low carb on very sick patients. Are any of you that sick? I think the number of people who would want to even have that debate wouldn't be more than a few.

I think you have convinced everyone that they shouldn't go develop a heart problem, so they can improve it with low carb.. congratulations, you have saved everyone from me! You foiled my evil plan! emoticon

If you actually want to debate low carb, then why don't you head back over to the thread about saturated fats being good for you. That is a major holdup for support of low carb. I have broken down the video into small segments for you. I am sure someone like you should be able to tear the ideas this " quack " said in the video to pieces, since it is obvious that saturated fats are bad. I welcome that.

Funny you should mention evangelism though. Religion is the only other thing on Earth where debate is frowned upon. That and low fat. First, questioning low fat is a sin. Second, when you try to debate, you find out that not only do they not want to, they don't have the ability to do so. They have their dogma, and when asked a direct question, they refuse to answer.. " God says it is so ! ".. in the case of low carb, God is replaced by " studies ", or " doctors " You believe in low fat so much, that the mere mention of the words low carb make you come running to slay the heretics. Yet, you can't even explain why low fat is good, or why low carb is deadly. That is faith. Religion. Evangelism.

Accusing other people of the very thing you are doing, is a very smart move. It puts them on the defensive, which is what you are trying to do, so that no one speaks about the topic, but is busy defending themselves. Very shrewd move.

What people should ask themselves, is.. Does Love4Kitties think I am so stupid, that a video would make me switch my diet, without me actually thinking about it, and doing research?

That is the only reason you would think it necessary to save them from a simple video.

I am sure that you talk about your success, and share what you have done to get there Love, and it isn't " promoting " your diet. It is why SP is here. They have message boards and teams, so we can discuss things, and talk to others on the same diet, or with the same dietary issue. I should be able to do so, without you harassing me, even if the lady in the video is a complete quack, and spouting B.S. I am not telling anyone that they should do low carb, and that is the only diet that is good. This video was about how it related to me, and nothing else. In truth, I thought it would be gone by now.

I stopped responding to you on the other thread, to bring the tension down, and am trying to stick to the topic, and only respond to you if you actually want to debate what is being discussed. I have no wish to discuss personal squabbles, or ideas that you have about me.



JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 1,431
11/20/13 3:04 P

I really don't understand the need to crap all over Russell's success. Does it give you joy being so negative and hurtful. We get it LOVE you are not a fan of low carb diets, despite the fact that they work. If they didn't work Dietician Becky would be here telling us they don't and they are unhealthy, but she's not. Why? Because low carb diets are a healthy and viable alternative for people who have not seen success with other ways of eating.

I'd hardy call opening up discussions evangelical. You don't have to read the posts if they bother you.

LOVE4KITTIES Posts: 1,929
11/20/13 2:40 P

Russell,

I think another poster called what you and some other high fat/low carb folks are doing, in general, on Spark People dietary evangelism. I completely agree with that assessment.

So far as what's going on in this thread:
You implied that this doctor (Vernon) was credible in your first post. The next poster (who also favors high fat/low carb) said she was respected and believable.

I pointed out that she is not credible, believable or respectable. Sorry you don't like that...

I kind of doubt that this is some random video made by some random doctor that you found and wanted to share just because what Vernon says she found was what you have experienced. This doctor, Vernon, co-authored a book with Atkins (Atkins Diabetes Revolution). I'm just going to hazard a guess (and please accept my apologies if I am incorrect) that you are familiar with the book. You have admitted that you promote low carb/high fat (e.g. Atkins) on this website and you apparently spend a significant amount of time doing so. So, again, I think you were probably familiar with her published work and her association with Atkins.

What I think you might not have realized was what a huge conflict of interest Vernon has. For two years, this doctor (Vernon) provided consulting services to Atkins Nutritionals Inc. (ANI), a business founded by Atkins that specialized in weight loss programs and products. She earned close to $600,000 for her services. After Atkinsí death, she was hired to promote his nutritional theories and earned almost $200,000 doing so between 2005 and 2008.

I also think you may not have been aware that Vernon has been to found lacking in ethics (disciplined and fined by her state medical board, hospital privileges revoked) or that she has been been investigated by the IRS, had a lot of money seized for not paying taxes and has now been criminally indicted for tax evasion (and lying on a loan application).

Yet, after all this has been exposed here, you still refuse to admit that anything she says about anything (including her patients' results on low carb diets) should be highly suspect and you state that we need to prove that what she's saying isn't true. This, to me, is just blindly following someone because you want to believe what she says. You then argue that no proof is needed, anyway. But, then you hold yourself up as proof (testimonials are not scientifically valid, BTW). How can this be called anything but dietary evangelism?

Overall, there is no logic or reasoning to your arguments, IMO. Your arguments are also not scientifically sound and neither are most of the arguments made by your fellow high fat/low carb friends (for lack of a better word) here on Spark People.

You state:
"I am not attempting to use this video to prove low carb. I don't need to do so. Millions of people already know it works.......low carb stabilizes blood sugars, and cholesterol levels, and lowers BP, and causes incredible amounts of weight loss, with little effort, and zero hunger."

Really? You are basically just making stuff up here (among other things, I'd love to see a study on whether or not high fat/low carb "causes incredible amounts of weight loss with little effort and zero hunger"). Your claims have not been scientifically proven. Dietary evangelism again.

BTW, you seem to be calling the standard, recommended, diet "low fat," but it is considered by registered dietitians to be moderate in fat. Is calling the standard recommendations "low fat" like a slur or something...an attempt to discredit the recommended diet? Anyway... No one is recommending a low fat diet, including our government or Spark People.

With all that said, I am going to be finished with this thread now. I feel like I've spent too much of my life on this nonsense already and there are other things I need and want to do before I have to go back to work tomorrow.

I do wish you all the best and hope that you continue to be successful in your efforts to lose weight and improve your health.

Edited by: LOVE4KITTIES at: 11/20/2013 (15:11)
RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
11/20/13 12:19 P

This only calls into question her personal attributes. It does nothing to disprove her research, which could be authenticated by a third source.

Secondly, I was only putting this video out there because the description of what happened, is identical to everything that has happened to me. I see a lot of low carb dieters who have improvements, but not identical to me, since I am a heart patient.

I talk about my experience a lot on here, and understandably, am excited for myself.. I love me emoticon

I am not attempting to use this video to prove low carb.. I don't need to do so. Millions of people already know it works. We have moved on to explaining why it is vastly superior to low fat. It isn't good enough to know that low carb stabilizes blood sugars, and cholesterol levels, and lowers BP, and causes incredible amounts of weight loss, with little effort, and zero hunger. We want to understand why.

The same thing with low fat. Why is it such a dismal failure? I could just point at 60 % overweight, and go " na na na na na na.. you're all failures! ", but pointing out the failure isn't good enough. We need to delve deeper into why low fat is an abysmal failure.

It's called curiosity. When you have that, you try to find out the reason for things, and pay attention to results. What is actually working, and why?

This video was merely something that I watched and thought " Wow, that is eerily similar to what happened to me ", and felt like I should share. It isn't part of an argument...lol. It is more of a summation of my experience, described better than I can do.

The idea that low carbers can't just share a video, and say " this is what happened to me " is sad. You have discredited the doctor, but we have no idea of whether her research is valid or not. The thing is, no one was saying it was, just that it mirrored my personal results. I wasn't presenting it as proof of low carb.

You think there is a debate on whether low carb or low fat is better, but that fight is over, and this thread isn't about that , or explaining why low carb works better for many people. Not part of any debate at all.

I merely meant to share it with other low carbers, because a lot of us share these same improvements, and would appreciate it. I shared it in this forum, because there are enough SP member who eat low carb, that I thought, some of them might read it here.

In the video, she says she has been under 20 g of carbs for 13-14 years.. are you so deathly afraid that a huge percentage of the people are going to hear that, and start following that? Lmao.. that isn't going to happen.. relax. People aren't using videos to convince others to start low carb. They are using themselves. Friends, and family, and co-workers in their daily lives. The only reason for videos like this, are to share among ourselves, or create debate on aspects of low carb, to further explore, why it works so well.

I am a little bit offended that anyone thinks my argument for low carb is this video. My argument, if one was needed, would be ME. This video is just something low carbers might appreciate.

If you love low fat, great! I hope you are healthy.

P.S. It might mean I am more credible than the doctor though..lol, so I did get that wrong. I hope a 3rd party authenticates her work.


Edited by: RUSSELL_40 at: 11/20/2013 (12:24)
JUSTEATREALFOOD Posts: 1,431
11/20/13 6:58 A

The silly thing is there is no proof required. Low carb diets work, ask any nutritionist. The reason low carb diets "fail" is for the same reason most diets fail, non compliance.

SUSAN_FOSTER Posts: 1,228
11/19/13 4:36 P

Russell - If I was making a claim, it's my job to have documented evidence to back it up. The point of science is not to make others do my job.

RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
11/19/13 2:48 P

Both ways of looking at it, would require someone to verify her results.

Personally, I don't need that, because I know them to be true, but that is useless to others. It also doesn't mean that she found those results herself. She could just be repeating the results she observed when working with Atkins. Still, what she describes, is exactly what happens on Atkins, so she has to at least have seen some evidence, and while we don't know if she has records, or treated thousands of patients, we don't know the opposite is true either.

You seem to not understand what the word proof means. You can't say she didn't turn in records at one hospital, so therefore, she couldn't possibly have treated thousands of patients, and seen results. You can only call it into question.

If money makes one unreliable due to their vested interest in supporting a diet, then the same can be said about low fat doctors. They get paid to support the diet the government came up with in the Senate. The government actually controls funding for the doctors producing the studies. If you get the wrong conclusion, then you don't get money to run your studies. In this scenario, we have to throw out all the studies.

I guess at that point, we can only trust poor doctors..lol

If she isn't trustworthy, then why would we ask her to prove her work. Someone more trustworthy should follow up, right?

The difference between us, is that while we agree that this may cause us to question things, I plan to wait to see if something further comes out about the topic, instead of dismissing everything she has done, without any proof of wrongdoing on this topic. What happens if they go pick sample patients, and visit them, and find out that yes, she did treat them, and those were the results she got?

Can we look at the results then, and use them? lol.

LOVE4KITTIES Posts: 1,929
11/19/13 2:06 P

'Do we have any proof that she didn't treat them with low carb, or see the results she claims?"

The question you should be asking is if SHE has any proof of her claims. She has been found to have been behaving unethically by her state medical board. Amongst her ethical violations is the fact are that she evidently has quite the habit of not writing her patient records (detailing treatment recommendations and outcomes) and you should know that, if they found that many unwritten records, there are undoubtedly thousands more just like that. I could speculate and say that, perhaps, she didn't write them because the outcomes weren't what she wanted. Or, maybe she was just too lazy. Whatever the case, she was definitely not acting as an ethical or responsible doctor or fulfilling her obligations to her patients.

Something that I feel certain of is that, for her to say she's "still writing" records years after she's seen those patients...well, she definitely doesn't have a memory of all of her patients. No one would remember hundreds of patients, their individual visits, what was recommended, whether or not there was patient compliance and the outcomes that these patients had. So, "still writing" means making them up, meaning fraudulent records. Know also that medical board investigations never turn up the full extent of violations such as she has committed.

She has made and continues to make a lot of money promoting low carb, so she obviously has a vested interest in saying it works. It seems she is also too dishonest to pay her taxes and that she is a known to have lied to get a loan. So...the burden of proof is on her to prove what she says and not on everyone else.

To me, it appears that she is a very dishonest and unethical person, in general. Everything she says should be regarded with the utmost suspicion.

Edited by: LOVE4KITTIES at: 11/19/2013 (14:09)
RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
11/19/13 1:45 P

There are thousands of her patients that shes says she treated with low carb. Do we have any proof that she didn't treat them with low carb, or see the results she claims.

The reason I ask, is that I have had identical results. It is possible that she did treat these patients, and made thousands of them healthy, while at the same time, being a tax evader, and not giving notes to the hospital that let her go.

These things do not necessarily mean that she is lying in the video, just that she has problems, in other areas of her life.

Thanks for the links though LOVE. I wonder if anyone has records of her patients, and has attempted to verify them, since this bring that into question.

I will admit that I posted this video solely because the results were identical to what has happened to me, while following the diet, she supports. I think she is being truthful, because I have that personal experience, but it is sad, that even if she is right, allowing herself to be seen as less than respectable, would make all of that hard work useless, since to be convincing when talking about the effects of low carb, you have to be believable.

So even though she may be right, finding out these other things may keep people from listening to advice that might save their lives.

LOVE4KITTIES Posts: 1,929
11/19/13 12:53 P

The doctor in the video, Mary Vernon, has a history of being censured, fined and ordered to complete continuing education courses in ethics and medical record keeping by her state medical board for violations of the Healing Arts Act. Her hospital privileges at Lawrence Memorial Hospital were also revoked (or "not renewed" which is a fancy way of them saying they didn't want her there and weren't going to allow her in their hospital anymore).

To add to this: She has been charged with five counts of tax evasion and one count of making a false statement to a bank in order to obtain a loan. The IRS also investigated her, in years prior to this, and they seized/levied close to $2 million from her to cover taxes, interest and penalties that she seems to have failed to pay between 1991 and 2005.

I wouldn't call her respectable, believable or credible.


www.fbi.gov/kansascity/press-releases/2012
/lawrence-physician-author-indicted-on
-tax-evasion-charges

www.ksbha.org/boardactions/Documents/verno
n_09.pdf

worldonline.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com
/news/documents/2012/12/20/maryvernon.
pdf


Edited by: LOVE4KITTIES at: 11/19/2013 (13:25)
EXOTEC Posts: 3,327
11/19/13 1:17 A

This is a great interview! She's wholly believable. Her knowledge comes not only from research, but her own experience and that of her patients. She's also well respected in a variety of circles. Please spend the time to watch this! It's worth it.

RUSSELL_40 Posts: 16,826
11/18/13 1:13 P

This video is amazing, and is about a doctor who has practiced low carb for years on her patients. The RESULTS she discusses are almost identical to what has happened to me.



www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaquSijXJkQ


Also, I like the idea she puts forth that low carbers need a doctor to help them follow the diet, and address other health concerns. I think there are people who eat low carb, and do not get the most benefit, due to lack of knowledge.

This is to show that what has occurred in my own experience is not unique, and has been replicated by many other, with a doctor witnessing it, who may be more credible than I am..lol

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