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MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 17,458
3/7/14 5:09 P

You are right, Bunny Kicks, I really need to start checking these things.

3/7/14 4:51 P

No wonder the OP is so quiet. :)

I would somewhat disagree on the reliability of government guidelines. The government recommends that we not smoke cigarettes and that we exercise and wear seat belts too. Government recommendations are based on science, not just vague musings.

There's a great deal of study on the link between saturated fats and heart disease. I agree that the story isn't fully told. At no point does science say "Well, no point studying further." On the other hand, you don't toss out 50 years of evidence-based medicine easily.

Beware of splashy headlines like "Saturated Fats Are Good For You" that generate lots of internet ad revenue but review questionable research. Some of these studies are supported by the National Dairy Council, the National Cattelman's Beef Association, and Unilever, a manufacturer of margerine and mayonnaise products, and their methodology has been criticized. (see link)

It's true, we all choose our own authorities to believe. Personally I'll stick with the Mayo Clinic and the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute and the National Institutes of Health.

Edited by: CALLMECARRIE at: 3/7/2014 (16:54)
BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,433
3/7/14 3:56 P

Just to point out, the OP originally created this thread about 1 year ago - somehow, it's been revived back to page 1 recently, but, she may well not be following it anymore.

EXOTEC Posts: 3,327
3/7/14 2:25 P

A "link" is not equivalent to "causative".
Yellow fingers are "linked" to lung disease. Do artists have increased risk for lung cancer? probably not... unless they're smoking lots of tobacco, which would make their fingers yellow, too.

We all have to choose our resources.
So far, governmental recommendations haven't gotten us too far down the path of health.
If it works for you - joy!

3/7/14 1:46 P

MEGAPEEJ - That's spot on!

MEGAPEEJ Posts: 732
3/7/14 1:13 P

I think the bigger issue is that you consider Jell-O, whipped cream, and cupcakes to be "real food". Everything you mention except for full-fat dairy are things that should only be in your diet as special occasion stuff, and therefore a few extra calories once a month or so shouldn't be an issue.

You also don't mention the many situations where the "real" version is the nutritionally better choice - a 4 oz steak instead of a 4 oz bag of beef jerky, real artisan bread as opposed to wonder bread, a sweet potato instead of fries.

If your mindset is that "real food is punishment", you're going to have huge issues on this journey. Margarine, Cool Whip, and sugar free Jell-O being "better" choices? Those shouldn't be choices at all.

3/7/14 12:47 P

EXOTEC, this is a quote from the Centers for Disease Control:

"Diets high in saturated fat have been linked to chronic disease, specifically, coronary heart disease. The Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2010 recommend consuming less than 10% of daily calories as saturated fat."

"But other saturated fats can be more difficult to see in your diet. In general, saturated fat can be found in the following foods:"

•High-fat cheeses
•High-fat cuts of meat
•Whole-fat milk and cream
•Ice cream and ice cream products

"It's important to note that lower-fat versions of these foods usually will contain saturated fats, but typically in smaller quantities than the regular versions."

I stand by my comments.

Edited by: CALLMECARRIE at: 3/7/2014 (12:54)
ALGEBRAGIRL Posts: 1,925
3/7/14 11:45 A

The 'punishment' comes from realizing that there are more calories in the cupcake than in the low-sugar, low-fat version of the same cupcake. If I understand you correctly.

You can eat that cupcake and still stay within your calorie limits. For sure, this is true on the Weight Watchers plan (they are called 'bonus' points, basically a margin of points built in to your limit so that 'falling off the wagon' isn't going to doom your diet). It's true in non-WW life, too.

Calories are the key, and dieting is all about tradeoffs. There's another option, though: because it is all about calories, then you can look at portion size and just eat anything you want, keeping within your calorie range for the day, and watching your portion size so you eat smaller portions of those things (sometimes much smaller portions).

The example of the cupcake is a good one. You can actually bake your own cupcakes and make them the size that you like to fit into your daily calorie limit. I think it was here on spark people that I posted about a microwave brownie maker that I bought at Walmart that suddenly made brownies very easy for me to make. When I posted that, people posted that they were making cake/brownies/cupcakes in small portions in their microwave ovens. So cool!

I'm not a 'sweets' person, but it showed me that I could make something I felt was acceptable to my diet and my calorie limits in a very short time in 1 pan. (I tend to throw all kinds of other stuff in the cake to give it more fiber, protein, etc.)

There are all kinds of options in the cooking universe - the supermarket sells you everything to make your food items from scratch. My husband uses our non-stick panini press to make his own Cubans (Cuban sandwich) and I use it for grilling almost anything without added fat. It wouldn't be useful if the result didn't taste so good!

I don't think it has to be expensive, either. The panini press is really like the George Foreman grill and I got it in a thrift shop. The brownie pan was marked down for clearance at Walmart (which is why I tried it, it was so inexpensive). The people who posted they were making their own microwave 'cake' were using egg cups or ramekins or even coffee mugs.

We live in an age with a tremendous array of choices. You can have what you want within your calorie limits. You don't have to feel punished.

Sorry, Unident. I just read your post and realized you said exactly what I meant to say - and with fewer words! Thanks! Ditto to your post!

Edited by: ALGEBRAGIRL at: 3/7/2014 (11:52)
EELPIE Posts: 2,700
3/7/14 11:23 A

Clarissa - I'm the same way, aspartame gives me wicked headaches :(

When I see fat free - most times they are adding something back in, anyway - so why not just go for the regular fat?

Fat really isn't the enemy we were led to believe it was.

EXOTEC Posts: 3,327
3/7/14 11:18 A

One difficulty is in dissociating ourselves from the current thinking that fats are evil and calories are everything. Processed foods (low-, no-, reduced-fat) take out healthy nutrients and add back things to make the final product still be appealing (read: marketable). They do supplement, but they don't necessarily supplement properly: we don't know all the tiniest nutrients we may be removing, or altering, or in what ratio is healthy, when those foods are processed. Whole foods contain all those things we don't know about, and in their correct balance.

If you're totally focused on calories, which is what we've been herded toward, you will have some trouble sticking to some of the popular diets. Fats are satiating - you won't be hungry as is typical an hour or so after eating a low-cal, low-fat meal if you eat whole foods with their proper healthy fats. At first you may see little change in those hungers... but soon you will not have the hunger you've been accustomed to on previous plans. Reduced hunger = reduced food intake... = fewer calories.

As for the sugar-free foods... there's a toss-up there. I try not to eat any more added sugars than I can, so I do use sugar-free products.. gelatin, as you mentioned. I will make a note of those, however: READ THE INGREDIENT LIST! Some of those products are sweetened with aspartame, which is far worse IMO than real sugar. I have found a couple of companies which make theirs with sucralose (Splenda™), and I will buy those, since that's the only sweetener our endocrinologist will permit us on his prescription diet - and that includes "natural" sugars, too. But if I can't find sucralose-sweetened things, I just tough it out with the real sugar. The gelatins I use don't vary that much in nutritional values either way. Yes, a bit higher, but not so much that I feel I can't have them at all.

I won't go into detail about atherosclerosis, fats, and cholesterol... but, the previous comment about "what ... animal fats [do] over time to your veins and arteries" is *nothing*. There is and has never been any causative research regarding CVD and serum cholesterol, and eating fat doesn't raise it. Believe me, I've tried. I eat plenty of healthy animal fats and absolutely *cannot* get my TChol above 300 no matter what I do. This is a personal perspective, although based in my amateur researching... but still. The basis is there.

Don't feel punished for eating real foods. It's healthier for reasons we don't even know about yet. Nutritional science is new and still developing. It's pretty clear that our previous processed diet isn't healthy, though. No punishment in opting away from that!

Edited by: EXOTEC at: 3/7/2014 (11:48)
3/7/14 8:42 A

If you're "working on eating more full-fat dairy," then yes, you're going to take in a lot more calories. Personally, the calories wouldn't be my biggest concern. Before you assume you're being damaged by "chemicals" in low-fat dairy that you don't think are added to full-fat dairy, maybe ask a cardiologist what that extra quantity of animal fats does over time to your veins and arteries. I would personally be more worried about that than I would over chemicals in low-fat dairy.

Having said that, I do have 2% milk on my cereal, and I understand what you're trying to do by getting away from fakey "diet" foods. I think it's best to eat food that hasn't been tampered with too much, but don't take the idea to extremes. Life is a series of trade-offs.

3/7/14 4:02 A

I feel your pain. I get headaches from aspartame and I had just rather not bother with most fat free products. I am choosing not to feel like a victim though. I often have to make compromises such as adding a touch of butter to a bit of olive oil for flavor and healthy oil or only having low fat protein and veggies with full fat dairy or real bread. I also add an extra fruit or vegetable at most meals. As long as you view the full fat full calorie stuff as indulgence rather than a way of life you should be okay. There's no point making rules you're not going to follow.

MISSRUTH Posts: 4,267
3/7/14 3:42 A

The beauty of the whole deal is that we each get to decide what our healthy lifestyles are going to include. If WW does not fit for you-- because they seem to stress artificial sweeteners and fat free foods-- well then, don't do WW. Simple as that. The bonus is, if you're not paying for meetings.... you have extra money to spend on real food.

Like pp's have mentioned, it's really a matter of deciding how you're going to "spend" your calorie allotment, how you're going to choose to use up those carbs and fat and protein grams for the day. If cake made with sugar has a lot more calories and carbs than cake made with artificial sweetener... either eat a smaller piece of cake or if what you're after is a large volume of food, choose something else like the berries and yogurt. I can eat a bunch of berries or watermelon, before I've gotten as many carbs as are in a piece of cake. Without even talking about the difference in fat grams or the beneficial nutrients in fruit, over cake.

I prefer the taste of butter.... but I don't need a big 'ol glob of it on my baked potato. A little goes a long way. Same thing with full-fat cheese. I wouldn't touch fat-free cheese. Am I being "punished" because my full-fat cheese has more fat grams and calories? Of course not. If I want to stay in my calorie / fat gram range, I just need to be mindful of how much of that full-fat cheese I'm eating.

NMNEWWMN Posts: 120
3/7/14 3:24 A

I understand what you are saying about real food. I believe real butter and eggs are much better than the artificial stuff, just have to cut back on portions. It's a real eye opener to see how much fat is in real food, but I just can't imagine that artificial is better. I am also on WW online right now, but also tracking calories with Spark, and it seems a healthier way to go. I have not substituted butter and eggs, and have been drinking whole milk, but think I am going to cut the fat and try two percent, as I have been going a little over on the fat ratio provided here in Spark.

LULUBELLE65 SparkPoints: (37,106)
Fitness Minutes: (27,770)
Posts: 1,169
3/7/14 2:57 A

You punish yourself when you eat fake food. Try not eating anything that is highly processed for a month and then taste something made with fat free Cool Whip (or even regular Cool Whip) or FF Pudding, or any of the other boxes and tubs of chemicals that we have been let to believe are food. It's disgusting. I did this accidentally a year or so ago when I had been really focused on clean eating. I found a can of "frosting" in the back of my fridge and in a moment of weakness I took a spook before I threw it in the garbage can. It literally hurt my mouth because it tasted so chemically and foreign.

I love baked goods, both making them and eating them. So my solution is to only bake for company, or when I know I can take the leftovers to work the next day. I get my once in a while treat (which is what a treat should be--if you eat it every day, it is not a treat) but I am not forced to struggle with the leftovers. One perfect chocolate chip cookie with real butter is better than 10 of those 100 calorie packs of fake cookies.

It is certainly possible to bake real treats that are lower in calorie than the traditional versions. As one PP said, applesauce is a great substitute for oil in things like banana bread, and you can usually lower the amount of sugar in a recipe by a quarter without any side effects.

MANDIETERRIER1 Posts: 17,458
3/6/14 10:47 P

I know what you mean. It seems like Weight Watchers punishes you for using the full fat version. It has more points. And rewards you for using the fat free sugar free plastic version. With less points.

I found a happy medium. I use the lighter version of dairy, but only if it has nothing weird added.

I am on Weight Watchers too. And they keep trying to get me to do Simple Start. Which is all about chicken breast, fat free ground meat and skim milk. I knew that I would last two minutes on that. So I opted for points plus.

Edited by: MANDIETERRIER1 at: 3/6/2014 (22:48)
TJANDJESS Posts: 672
3/6/14 8:59 P

I recently stumbled upon:
I am intrigued and scared by the idea of only eating REAL food meaning:
full fat dairy,cheese, butter because it's actually healthier (in small doses) than hydrogenated crap in the "light butters"
No sugar, HFCS, OR artificial sweeteners. Honey or 100% maple syrup because they're the least process
Lots of vegetables and fruits, WHOLE grain (check ingredients)
She states grass fed beef and free range chicken (whatever that means)
I like some of her ideas about cutting out processed food, but I don't think I could follow all her rules. It's a good resource for eating cleaner though.

200POUNDQUEST SparkPoints: (2,468)
Fitness Minutes: (1,201)
Posts: 205
4/8/13 10:51 P

For things like butter, if I'm cooking something like scrambled eggs that I think taste better when cooked in butter, I'll mist the pan with olive oil to prevent sticking and then use about a tsp of butter to get the flavor. I tried cooking them with just the small amount of butter before, but they stuck to the pan something awful.

For baked goods, applesauce is a decent swap for fat in some recipes, though not as satisfying imo. I don't use artificial sweetners because I don't like the taste and I figure why bother consuming something with little nutritional value that I don't even enjoy eating.

For the most part when it comes to things like cakes, cookies, etc. I just eat them very occasionally and in small portions, which is fine, because they are not very filling for me for the amount of calories and often lead to stomach upset or just a general feeling of ick.

FTSOLK Posts: 1,395
4/4/13 9:09 A

I am trying to break some of the WW mindset. I do like how fruit and most veggies are 0 points now. However, I don't like how they scare you away from even healthy fats. 2 teaspoons of oil is not nearly enough for me. While I definitely like my carbs (and I am not one to nitpick over every carb- especially in produce), I find I do a lot better on a higher fat, higher protein diet. On most days, I would rather have the fattier dark meat over the white chicken breast.I cook my eggs in coconut oil instead of 0 calorie cooking spray, and they do satisfy me a whole lot more.

Ideally, I would love to eat only clean, whole, natural foods for a period of time without tracking calories to see where it gets me. However, that isn't very realistic for me at this time. I just wish there was a way to translate a more even macronutrient ratio (40-30-30) into the WW plan, so I can have more fat and protein than the plan would suggest.

4/4/13 8:37 A

I definitely don't feel punished for eating real food. It's so much better for me and my long term health!

I just found this podcast yesterday, but I have listened to Jonathan before. Some great stuff.

4/3/13 9:09 P

I agree with bunny. I used real butter, but in moderation, i.e. 1 teaspoon vs. 1 T. Also, I eat 2% plain yogurt and milk, so yummy! The key really is portion sizes, and if you think that you are not getting enough volume, add some yummy veggies. I have been known to make 2 veggie sides with dinner...nothing wrong with that!

I also used t do ww, and breaking that mindset I feel is very important. I got down to a very slim weight on ww, but I was also losing my hair! Eating real foods my skin is bright and my hair is growing too fast. Keep it up its worth it!

FTSOLK Posts: 1,395
4/3/13 1:44 P

How do I feel when I go running?

Like I am going to die.

SEAGIRL545 Posts: 88
4/3/13 12:45 P

How do you feel when you try to go running?
How do you feel when you visit the doctor and they say "ok, step on the scale"?
How do you feel when you open your closet and get dressed?

Maybe change the things that make you feel good. Replace the joy that comes from cake or butter with fitness accomplishments and health changes.

BUNNYVUNE Posts: 110
4/3/13 11:25 A

Oh, thank goodness! I was worried I had been a little blunt, but that's how I'm talking to myself nowadays, too. I used to be like, "Must have treats always," but now it's sunk in that I need more than treats to be awesomer.

FTSOLK Posts: 1,395
4/3/13 10:12 A

Bunny- I never thought of it that way. A bowl of fresh berries with a dollop of Greek yogurt seems so much more decadent than some yogurt garnished with a little berries.

BUNNYVUNE Posts: 110
4/2/13 5:34 P

What you're basically saying is that you have to eat lower volumes of foods that have more calories. You have to eat a smaller piece of cake. A smaller serving of yogurt.

One way to circumvent this problem is to use your higher calorie whole foods as garnishes instead of the bulk of the meal. Garnish your bowl of berries with yogurt instead of sprinkling your bowl of yogurt with a little fruit.

My dinner last night was a grilled zucchini, a baked potato with a sliver of butter, a dozen asparagus stalks, and only about 3oz of leftover ham. The nutrient dense, high volume, low calorie foods made up the bulk of my meal, and it was a ton of food. I was sated from 7pm until I went to bed at 12:30.

You punish your body by not fueling it. It's not punishment to eat vegetables instead of a cupcake. It's not punishment to eat a dollop of yogurt on top of fruit instead of a cup of sweetened yogurt. The sooner you accept this and put it into practice, the sooner that sliver of cake you have every now and again really satisfies you.

JADATRACK SparkPoints: (15,564)
Fitness Minutes: (23,073)
Posts: 763
4/2/13 5:10 P

"As for the full-fat dairy, there's nothing wrong or artificial about low or non-fat dairy."
It depends on the dairy. Sometimes manufacturers will add in chemicals and/or oils to try and bring back some taste (or sugar in the case of yogurt). Always check the label before purchasing.

ANARIE Posts: 13,184
4/2/13 4:52 P

The problem I see is that most of the "real" foods you're talking about aren't things that should be eaten frequently anyway. Except for the full-fat dairy, the primary contributor to the calorie difference is sugar. I don't really think refined sugar is any more "real" or virtuous than Splenda. Sugar has a lot of calories and no nutritional bonuses, so you're not being "punished" for eating "real" Jello. If there's any "punishment," it's for eating Jello, period.

As for the full-fat dairy, there's nothing wrong or artificial about low or non-fat dairy. Eating full-fat versus non-fat yogurt is a choice based on taste and the calories you have available. Full-fat is only healthier for infants and very small children who get a significant portion of calories from milk and need more fat for brain development. Once you're over the age of three, you don't really need whole milk/dairy, and it's probably less healthy than low-fat, especially if you get animal fat from any other source. If you constantly get too little fat even though you eat nuts and avocado and olive oil, THEN you might consider full-fat dairy, but that's not a problem for most of us.

CARADAWN Posts: 1,955
4/2/13 4:21 P

HONEY I know what you mean as I made the switch to Whole REAL foods a while ago. The first time I tracked my calories from real foods I was shocked - I didn't like what I saw! I started to think of ways to cut back on the real foods but then I was hungry. But, after eating mostly REAL food (70-80%) I find that I eat smaller portions and weight has not been a problem. I haven't drastically changed my exercise routine and yet I haven't gained any weight (I am in maintenance) after making the switch. I do find that when I eat processed foods I tend to eat more and never stay full as long. Because of this it is hard for me to eat out, which I do a couple times a week, so I try on those occasions where I don't control my food to make the best choices possible.

You have to live life and enjoy what you eat. I truly believe that eating REAL food is a ton more beneficial for your long term health than consuming tons of "natural" and artificial ingredients. If you have just made the switch, give it time. If you have been eating real food for a while then maybe try exchanging some more of your processed foods with real food and see if your portions get smaller.

Good luck :)

UNIDENT Posts: 33,498
4/2/13 3:02 P

No God is punishing you for this.

Take time. There's only 24 hours in a day.

Do you feel "punished" by doing your housework properly instead of whipping through it with a half-baked attempt and skipping parts of it? But it used more time to do that. That's time you can't spend doing other things.

It's the same thing.

If you don't want to gain weight then there's only so many calories per day that you can eat. If you chose to eat something relatively high in calories, then you won't have as many left for other things.

That's reality. It's not punishment. You could apply the concept to lots of other facets of life ...

If I spend more time on a project at work and do it well then I won't have as much time to spend on other projects.

If I drive the longer, scenic/safe way then I won't have as much gas to drive other places.

If I go to a movie with Friend X then I won't be able to spend time with Friend Y.

Life is full of trade-offs.

CLARK971 SparkPoints: (29,686)
Fitness Minutes: (23,835)
Posts: 827
4/2/13 3:02 P

i eat some low fat, sugar free things, but not a lot. usually, i don't like the way they taste. i drink 2% milk, eat bacon and lucky charms. i just track it and try to stay in my nutrient ranges and calorie ranges.

it isn't about being "punished". think of it has making choices for a healthier lifestyle.

like the previous poster said, to reduce calories, you have to remove something, replace something or eat less. sometimes i prefer a smaller portion of a real thing.

NAUSIKAA Posts: 4,848
4/2/13 2:33 P

But isn't that why it's a "light" or "Weight Watchers" recipe in the first place? Isn't the whole point to reduce the calories? There are only a few ways to reduce calories: reduce portion size; use lowfat or nonfat dairy; or use a sugar substitute. There are some other ways beyond that but those are the standard ways. I sometimes reduce calories by using extracts, for example the other day I made a recipe and used almond extract instead of almonds. But you have to either remove something or replace it with something else or just eat less. There is no other option really.....

FTSOLK Posts: 1,395
4/2/13 2:26 P

I'm a previous member of Weight Watchers. There have been times where I would go to meetings or see posts about a recipe online- like a dessert for only 3 or 4 points. However, after swapping out the Splenda for real sugar and the light butter for real butter, the 4 point dessert doubled to 8 points. Meaning, for 4 points, I could only have half as much. And when you know you can have a piece of cake that's twice as big for the same points or calories, it is a huge letdown.

4/2/13 2:15 P

Honestly the full-fat version is actually healthier than the reduced fat because the reduced fat carries more chemicals and have been processed more. Don't feel punished for your choices. Just do the best you can!

DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (61,313)
Fitness Minutes: (15,545)
Posts: 9,713
4/2/13 1:38 P

What exactly is punishing about it? higher calorie doesn't mean worse, and lower calorie doesn't mean better. Avocado, for example, is a relatively calorie dense food, but it's so packed with nutrients that a little goes a LONG way, and it's a worthy expenditure.

NAUSIKAA Posts: 4,848
4/2/13 1:38 P

Heh. It does seem that way sometimes. But sometimes the real food options are a lot more filling. Personally I like to go for high-volume foods so I usually do choose the low fat dairy (fat free is almost entirely unavailable where I live but I'd get it if I could) rather than the full fat because I'd rather have 200g lowfat Greek yogurt than 100g regular (or whatever the calorie equivalent would work out to). But some people will actually find that 100g of regular yogurt keeps them full longer than 200g of lowfat. I haven't found this to be the case for me with dairy, but I eat whole eggs rather than 2 or 3 times as many egg whites because I think the whole egg is more filling.

I try not to go to extremes on either end. I'm no more likely to put a tbsp of real butter on my food than I am likely to eat the Walden Farms "food-like substance" calorie-free chocolate sauce. I think the answer is in the middle -- balance between whole, natural foods in quantities that support weight loss and complete nutrition.

FTSOLK Posts: 1,395
4/2/13 1:29 P

Sometimes, it feels like, when counting calories or points, I get "punished" for eating real foods or avoiding certain chemicals.

Now, I KNOW Jell-O is not exactly the healthiest thing, but you get the sugar-free stuff that's sweetened with artificial sweetener and it's only about 10 calories a container. The full sugar stuff is 70. Granted, it's not a huge difference, but it IS a difference.

The change is even worse when looking at dairy. I do eat fat-free Greek yogurt, but in general, I prefer full-fat dairy. The difference between a cup of skim milk and a cup of full-fat in regards to calories is pretty significant.

Or let's look at another dessert. You can get the low-calorie, low-sugar cakes at the grocery store that have an ingredient list with half of the ingredients containing the letters "x" or "z". Or you can have the homemade cupcake made with real butter, sugar, and cream. The homemade cupcake is probably going to be higher in calories even for a similar serving size.

Even looking at light butters/margarine. They might be lower in fat and calories than the the regular butter, but they contain trans-fats. Based on ingredients, real butter is probably better, but it is a bigger chunk of your caloric intake of the day. And light Cool Whip often has hydrogenated oils AND artificial sweeteners, but it's lower in calories than the whipped cream made with real dairy cream and sugar.

I always had this problem with dieting because I avoid artificial sweeteners, and I am working on eating more full-fat dairy and less foods with trans-fats (hydrogenated oils). However, it seems like, at times, I'm being punished for trying to eat "real" foods.

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