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1/10/13 1:45 P

LOL, Eric Holder has ZERO power to do anything. I'm not worried and neither should any responsible gun owner or potential Rebel againt the U.S Gov't., it just ain't gonna happen. Ever.

Also, whoever IS brainwashed by Holder isn't relevent either.

2nd Amendement

OKIEGIRL561 Posts: 2,362
1/10/13 1:28 P

It's been Eric Holder's agenda for some time to "brainwash" people about the use of guns. Even though it is a Constitutional right (put there for a reason), the Progressives are determined to use any crisis to promote their agenda. Ultimately they want to strike the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. Holder thought he could drum up support by using Fast and Furious. That didn't work so well for him. The school tragedy is a way to drum up support from the public, using the usual, "Something's got to be done." has uncovered video from 1995 of then-U.S. Attorney Eric Holder announcing a public campaign to "really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way."
Holder was addressing the Woman's National Democratic Club. In his remarks, broadcast by CSPAN 2, he explained that he intended to use anti-smoking campaigns as his model to "change the hearts and minds of people in Washington, DC" about guns.
"What we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that's not cool, that it's not acceptable, it's not hip to carry a gun anymore, in the way in which we changed our attitudes about cigarettes."
Holder added that he had asked advertising agencies in the nation's capital to assist by making anti-gun ads rather than commercials "that make me buy things that I don't really need." He had also approached local newspapers and television stations, he said, asking them to devote prime space and time, respectively, to his anti-gun campaign.
Local political leaders and celebrities, Holder said, including Mayor Marion Barry and Jesse Jackson, had been asked to help. In addition, he reported, he had asked the local school board to make the anti-gun message a part of "every day, every school, and every level."

1/10/13 11:53 A

Yeah, sorry if I made it sound like I side stepped all the other issues involved, I was speaking about what these two guys said concerning their opinion.

This President won't get anything passed that has anything to do with altering or amending the 2nd Amendment, just look at his past record; no where on gun control since '08, increased military presence in the middle east, increased bordered patrol rather than cutting back,....if I were a conservative gun toting kinda dude I would NOT be worried in the least about this President doing anything "real" about gun control.

For me personally, I don't really like the idea of my fifth grade teacher, Mrs. McGullicutty, wielding a shotgun or any kind of gun for that matter, walking the halls of an elementary school, that doesn't seem like a solution, its an accident waiting to happen. Do I want "GUN CONTROL"? Eh, I suppose there are enough laws on the books now to solve the issue, do I think MENTAL HEALTH CARE ought to get a nugget of attention in today's society? HELL YES I do. This President hasn't made ONE STEP towards getting this under control. If it really IS "People Kill People" then why isn't mental health care in the forefront of the GOPs current issues?

I have resigned to the fact the nothing will be solved about this kind of tragedy.

1/10/13 11:28 A

KJFitnessDude, I don't think this issue has anything to do with how a person feels about the current president. The two men you mention are not the only ones who don't want our 2nd amendment rights intruded upon. The problem is not guns. Guns by themselves do absolutely nothing. The current laws and directives about weapons are sufficient. They just need to be followed and enforced.

BlueNose63, I agree that mental health issues have been shoved to the background and not properly addressed. Our tax dollars are not being put to use where we need them.

BLUENOSE63 SparkPoints: (108,021)
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1/10/13 7:48 A

I really believe that the mental health issues of people purchasing guns must be addressed. Now some may say it is a violation of person's rights to check into their mental health status but it begs to differ....will it potentially save lives.

Government in both the US and Canada have failed their citizens on the subject of the treatment for mental health.....when budgets were and are still tightened, the first thing was to close halfway homes, group homes and other agencies which provided close supervision on the medications being taken by residents.....

Also I have always believed that in order to effectively solve or work toward solving a situation you don't like.....get involved at the grassroots level and quit complaining.....

Just my thoughts in an open forum

1/10/13 6:40 A

I have a few aquaintences who are making the argument that it's not about shooting targets or hunting, they are saying that they should be allowed to own ANY kind of weapon to raise arms against this country to overthrow this current government. These two guys are classic "Good Old Boys" material and hate the current President.

AGITATOR1 SparkPoints: (3,885)
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1/9/13 8:05 P

The same 2nd amendment cheer leaders continue their charades for their rights to own weapons with little or no concerns about the rights of the innocent victims, Life, Liberty. and the Pursuit of Happiness. If someone needs to shoot hundreds of rounds per second to hit one target they shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.

1/9/13 2:51 P

Does anyone think "something" has already been to help prevent this from happening again?

School security in my district had been heightened and extremely visible.

LIBBYL1 Posts: 5,933
12/25/12 12:41 A

Reading the anger in this post made me want to cry. I am a South African. And today, though so far away, I am thinking so much of the families of those that lost children in the Newtown shooting. It also makes me so sad that people anguished by mental health issues are not supported/given help (both those directly affected and their families and friends). It makes me sad that here in South Africa we are regarded as a very violent society (based on violent crime), but we do not have mass shootings at schools/malls etc. We have secular education - and I love that my daughter has learnt about all the different religions - Christianity, Islam, traditional beliefs, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Paganism and atheism - at school and fundamentally about the common values shared. I love it that we know directly of the wonderful traditions of different religions through friends inviting us to Hannukah and Friday night supper, to Diwali, to Eid, to Kwanza.... And South Africa is a majority (96%) Christian country with a very active church going population. I see though that as cities grow and lifestyles change, we lose some humanity.... In smaller towns here people stop to talk to each other and greet each other and no parent/child would struggle alone with mental illness. Compassion goes and there is loneliness.

GYMMAN59 SparkPoints: (75,783)
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12/24/12 4:24 P

Kfit, great post I as well think we need to focus on the issues of Mental Health,In this County in the k-12,the psychologists are so overworked so many students get through the cracks,

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12/24/12 11:53 A

I have just a couple of thoughts then I am going to get off this thread as it is very emotional. If anyone wants to comment on my thoughts, consider taking it off line.

These killers are most likely mentally disturbed but they not stupid. In fact they are mostly of a hight intellect. So why do they attack in schools, theaters, etc? To me, if they are hellbent on doing this, go to a venue where many people are located and also where there is virtually no possibility of being stopped. Where would that be I ask. Simple. Any "GUN FREE ZONE" will do just fine and when they are finally confronted, they kill themselves. They are disturbed, intelligent and cowards through and through.

am not necessarily advocating arming the teachers only because guns in the hands of ANYONE who is not thoroughly trained is an accident looking for a place to happen.

But it makes pure sense to me to have armed professional protection whenever possible. Remember, having armed marshals aboard most commercial aircraft goes a very long way in preventing attempts by the bad guys.

I just read a report where a student's father, a battle trained Marine is standing guard at his child's school. Does anyone really think that a wacko would test him just to get in the school?

End of my rant and thanks for listening. Like I said earlier, feel free to send me email privately if you like.

12/24/12 11:41 A

Thank you, Jen. As a deist and a Pagan, who happens to live a 15-minute drive from the school in Newtown, I really prefer to keep the politics of religion out of it.

Here, we are all trying to get over the crazy unthinkable horror of it all. Each in our own ways, we are all together in sorrow, shock and wordlessness. This morning I went to one of the memorial sites and left a small token (I refuse to stop by the actual school where it happened -- that feels rather macabre to me).

The victims are all in my thoughts, yes, even the mother.

Edited by: ARTEMISTHEGREEK at: 12/24/2012 (11:44)
12/24/12 11:29 A

*Alert!* - I am stating my opinion on the general topic of school shootings as it relates to the recent tragedy in Conn.

While I agree that "knee-jerk" reactions are not always the best way to handle tragedies I do agree that a national conversation should begin with this primer: "Why does this kind of thing happen in the first place and WHAT are the things that accelerate/enable it?"

Mental Health issues was the bottomline here. Beyond that I don't know what actually happened that made the killer (in Connecticut) do it, heck, we may NEVER know the whole story. That said, I am NOT hearing mental health support in the forefront of the national conversation, I'm hearing band-aid solutions and none of them seem to be addressing more money towards mental health. IDK, maybe I'm way off on that point.

Secondly, what "enabled" the killer to make this happen? I keep hearing the "people kill people" defense so if that's true then how was he able to kill so many because by himself with no implements he may have been able to wrestle down a few staff members but enough of them would've been able to detain him and maybe with no loss of life. But he DID have an implement; he had guns. Not a knife, not a crow bar, not a bazooka, not a car for raming, this guy had guns. HIS guns!? IDK, but he had SOMEbody's guns.

As for reasons why this happened other than what I said above, we just don't really know. I DO know this and maybe this had not one thing to do with it but maybe bullying was somehow engrained into the beginning fibers of the killer's downfall, heck, it may have been years ago, it may have been when he was in primary school, who knows but other shootings have been investigated and bullying WAS the common denominator.

God is everywhere at all times. Starting at the local level politicians get voted in by us.

This has been my OPINION and I am NOT trying to pass it off as facts.

SPARK_COACH_JEN Posts: 65,555
12/24/12 9:05 A

Hi everyone

I understand this is a "hot button" issue with lots of strong opinions. I would just ask that you not make this a debate about religion (since we do not allow religious or political discussion on the Message Boards) and if you do have something to say about the issue, you do it in a respectful way.


Coach Jen

OKIEGIRL561 Posts: 2,362
12/22/12 4:32 P

God, Family, Country. It would help if we got our priorities straight.

LOLEMA SparkPoints: (105,894)
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12/22/12 10:13 A

we need to deal with bullying - end of story! although schools have anti bullying plan in effect, they don't enforce it or do anything else with it!

MAMISHELI53 Posts: 16,108
12/22/12 9:15 A

I tend to agree. I think emotions are just very charged.
I pray for PEACE. But it requires a change from within.

12/22/12 7:45 A

I just want to say I hate to see this here. As far as I know this has always been a supportive website.

Edited by: SAILSATSUNSET at: 12/22/2012 (07:47)
JENNILACEY SparkPoints: (81,972)
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12/22/12 7:28 A

I'm not American and I really can't understand the Wild West mentality in the USA. It's a nation who lives in a constant fear and are armed to the teeth in guns. It seems that when gun supporters hear "gun restrictions or regulations" they automatically draw the conjecture that it means a "gun ban". Most countries in the developed world have strict laws when it comes to who can and cannot own guns and what type of guns you can own. The more guns floating around in the population means it's easier for those guns to get into the wrong hands; children, the mentally ill, criminals who steal guns from licensed owners. The answer always seems to *add more guns to the population* to prevent shootings. How does that make any logical sense at all?

Now, here in Canada... we have nothing to brag about either. We have a high rate of guns per capita as well and have experienced a few school shootings. Still not as many homicides by guns per capita as the USA but we are a bit stricter than the US with our gun regulations. Hand guns for one, are very hard to get ahold of, you cannot carry and conseal and automatic rifles are banned. Most of the homicides in my city have occured with knives but the chance of surviving a knife attack is greater than surving a gun attack and you can't kill as many people with a knife as with a gun. We also see gun ownership in a different way, it's less about protecting ourselves and homes and more about hunting. The only gun homicides I've heard about in my border city to the US is when young Americans bring their guns over here, get drunk and get in fights with our young people that end in them pulling out their gun.

As far as blaming taking religion out of public schools. All countries in the developed world have secular public education. Yet, they do not have the same issues with shooting rampages as the USA. Japan for instance has never experienced anything like what goes in the USA and they are a largely atheist nation. Same as Northern European countries. I'll tell you what IS the difference... strict gun control laws, far less guns in the population. As an outsider, it appears to be typical American right-wing media attempting to deflect blame from guns. After all, Adam Lanza was from a Christian family with a mother who had an obsession with firearms. But point the finger elsewhere and blame secularists for taking morning Christian prayer out of schools. Forget that the two most Christian countries in the industrial world (Canada and the US) have the biggest issues with gun violence and the most guns per capita while other developed nations with more non-Christians have virtually none. It's comparable to a caucasion person commiting an attrocious crime on a school and then people blaming it on the abolishment of segregation.

Personally, I find it disrespectful how certain people in this post would be so bold as to suggest that non-Christian children be forced to pay tribute to something they don't believe in. Children/teachers etc. are still allowed to pray in schools. School officials cannot favour one religion over another and force children/staff to pay tribute to their particular god. Like I said, ALL developed nations have secular public schools but don't have school shootings and everyone armed to teeth with weapons. It is also insulting that you would blame atheists for this when we had nothing to do with it and question how we raise our children without rigid and primitive religious dogma that much of which is considered immoral by modern standards. Especially, considering 90% of the US prison population is composed of Christians and the family involved is Christian. Really now, how dare you pass the buck? Is it because there isn't enough non-Christians in NA to defend themselves so you use us as your scapegoat to push you religous agenda?

There is obviously more going on in the North America though. I will not just blanket the epidemic of school shootings to laxed gun ownership. There are more factors involved that are difficult to pinpoint. My personal opinion is the glorification and sensationalization of fame through the media, more often than not; negative fame is glorified. More so than any other country, America lives in a dream world of Hollywood celebrities, self-actualization through commercialism and sensationalized murder/violence. As well as the animosity toward and defunding of socialized programs like mental health.

Edited by: JENNILACEY at: 12/22/2012 (12:56)
TENNISJIM Posts: 11,750
12/22/12 6:48 A

It's a crazy world we are living in now. When did it happen? Oh I remember now...the T.........

REYNINGSUNSHINE SparkPoints: (20,387)
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12/22/12 6:42 A

PLINTHESS- What?! I haven't heard that! Good golly, that's just asinine!

12/22/12 5:15 A

Just want to say that from this side of the pond, the situation in US schools is a complete mystery. Heard on the radio this morning the suggestion that armed guards patrol all schools - what???? I love you guys but I'll never understand....

REYNINGSUNSHINE SparkPoints: (20,387)
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12/22/12 4:40 A

Regarding religion: I'm LDS, personally. What I hate most about my religion is the feeling I get when I go to Church that I'm being judged because my father isn't LDS. Nobody here knows what is "right." We have no direct, indisputable evidence. It isn't like we can send a rocket to heaven and ask God directly to come down and tell us what is real. We can't prove or disprove anything, so how anybody can be SO right that they harm other people is just asinine and against pretty much all religions I know of- from any denomination of Christian to Muslim to Buddhist to Taoism. (But what we know is that there are a set of rules that help majority of people be happy. Nobody I know will say that love makes them miserable- even the 12 year old teeny-boppers who are broken hearted because their love of 3 weeks broke up with them. What hurts us is lack of love.)

REYNINGSUNSHINE SparkPoints: (20,387)
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12/22/12 4:34 A

Most of my generation seems to be pretty liberal and democratic (Note: I'm 18). Me, though, I'm very libertarian, even in the wake of all of this.

I don't believe in banning any type of sales outright. First: we have a right, as stated right there in the second amendment, to defend ourselves. Look up the Clackamas Mall shooting. A man began what would have been a kill rampage. He killed two. A man with a concealed gun pulled his gun out, shot the killer, and saved potentially tens to hundreds of innocent lives.

If any teacher at Sandy Hook had a handgun and new how to use it, after that first shot was heard, the kid could've been taken out. You don't have to kill the kid to disarm him; just a few shoulder shots. Even if you aren't a great shot and you do miss the crucial areas and do hit a major artery- at least you have protected yourself and tons of little kids!

About banning semi-automatic weapons: Guns are not just for hunting or self-defense. I note self-defense needs above, and most people are fine with others hunting for food or sport, but I grew up in a responsible gun-owning home where shooting was a hobby. My dad loves semi-automatics because they ARE fun to shoot. He knows how to operate them safely. He isn't at risk for a mental break down. He isn't malicious. He's just a guy who likes the experience of shooting at targets at the range or backyard (note: rural area! We have acres of nothing surrounding us). He keeps all of his guns- and he has several- locked in a heavy gun safe. He stores them with blanks in and with safety on. He taught me how to handle guns, but even still- I don't have access to his gun safe.

Banning the selling of ANY gun would not stop violence. Law-abiding citizens wouldn't have access to the guns, but criminals? Do you not realize that there is a black market? Criminals see themselves outside of the law. If they want a gun, no matter what, they will get a gun. And guns are not the most deadly weapon. They can be stopped. They can be empty. They take some time; you have to shoot each person you want to kill. What about mustard gas? What about going into a school's supply closet (easy to break in to, even with the door locked), getting some bleach and ammonia product, and mixing it together? By the time a room of kids realizes there is anything wrong, it's too late. What about home-made bombs? What, are we going to start saying common household products need to be banned because you can use them for malicious deeds?

If somebody wants to break the law, they will break the law. If somebody wants to kill, they will kill. Solving the problem of violence in schools or just IN GENERAL isn't about taking away law-abiding citizen's privileges. It's about bolstering up the mental health care system and educating people on proper safety. I know Adam Lanza had stolen the guns he had from his Mom's gun safe. His mom might have been a good law-abiding citizen, but we all know the kid had mental problems. If she had paid attention to her son's condition- and paid attention to how her son individually had this condition- maybe she would have realized that having certain guns was not appropriate due to the ease of access of her son.

I know we all want to point the blame and something inanimate, because those impacted by this the most surely are not at fault. But sometimes, it's hard for us to admit that the fault is just in humans in general. People say it's no God (of any kind) allowed in school. I don't mind if you're atheist, but that's kind of true. It's because of evil in the world that this happens. Want to combat evil? Teach your children what is right. The Ten Commandments survive today not just because they are of "God." They survive because when you follow them, you end up happier. Don't lie. Don't steal. Don't kill. Be grateful for what you have. Work hard. Don't ask for more than you are willing to work your bum off for. Get rest. Respect that some people know more than you do. Love everybody. These are the things we need to teach our kids- that no matter what, each person has dignity, and we need to respect that. This applies to every.single.kid.ever.

Sometimes, people are hurting, they get dragged down no matter what. Adam Lanza- and ANY of the other perpetrators- obviously had something mis-structured in their minds. Maybe with Lanza, it wasn't overt evil Was he depressed in the moment because of something that happened in school and thought that life was pain, so he would save some children from experiencing it? I will say blame lies in him, but we need to look at this as a community. Sure, Lanza had aspberger's. He was an odd kid. He was different from his peers, and with Autism, he probably found it doubly hard to relate. Was he teased? Was he bullied? Did people put undue pressure on him?

We need to teach our kids to be good and kind to everybody, to give, to love. Not because of laws, but because that is how we treat people. That starts at home. Get kids out of abusive homes. Get them into loving homes. They don't need to be Christian. They don't need to be religious. They just need to be loving, kind, supportive, and moral.

JANIEWWJD SparkPoints: (564,374)
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12/22/12 2:32 A

God bless us one and all and God protect our Children!!!!

12/21/12 7:50 P

I'm afraid I can't agree with you there, Raptormelon. You know that pistol you see the police with on Law & Order? The one where they pull the trigger and the gun fires? That's a semi-automatic. The kind of weapon where you pull the trigger and many shots fire is a full-automatic. I don't know if you're old enough to remember the TV Westerns in the 60s. I loved The Rifleman! The rifle Lucas used, where he had to 'cock' the trigger each time he fired, that's the completely non-automatic kind. Hunted animals can hear it when you cock the trigger.

Whether you need a semi-automatic gun to kill animals or not, I don't want the government telling me what I can and can't own. As a responsible, law abiding person I expect to be treated as such. Owning weapons is a right, not a privilege. That right should only be taken away from persons who have proven that they are not responsible. I do not own firearms (yet) and I'm not a member of the NRA. I just think that the government should stay the F out of my life. As long as I'm not breaking any laws I have the right to make decisions for myself.

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 7:05 P

RE. Guns. I do agree that gun owners must be responsible for those weapons. I do think that the sale of semi-automatic weapons should be banned altogether. You don't need a semi-automatic gun to take down a deer, turkey, or other wild game. I don't think machines created specifically to kill at a fast rate should be available to anyone but military, and even that is debatable.

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 7:01 P

No. I am NOT saying that, actually. I'm not implying what you're saying that I'm implying, nor am I infering anything of the sort!!! HOW THE HELL does anyone get THAT from what I said????? *SCREAMS* NO child deserves to die!!! NO CHILD DESERVES TO DIE, especially in the way that these babies did!!! A better way to say that, and a smarter way, would be to say "It seems to me that you are implying....." I AM sorry it came OFF that way to you, but, I repeat, I in NO WAY, in any shape or form, on any spiritual, physical, molecular level-was implying anything of the kind.

As my mother said, it seems that the only religion that OFFENDS anyone is Christianity. I said, "God." I said that GOD was removed from the schools. I've also already apologized for the incorrect citation, and for goodness' sake, if you'd LOOK at my page-you would see, I am ALL about integration. My father's mother(grandmother only by blood) was pretty dang racist, and my father did well not to follow in her footsteps. My grandmother,as far as I know, definitely was not. She never associated skin color or religion or anything like that with some negative character flaw. My very good friend and her family, whom I love dearly, are Muslim. I don't tell people "You must be of this faith to be my friend." That's stupid-and I might add, totally unChristian. I've got friends from all walks of life, and faiths. I share my faith without trying to shove it down people's throats-cuz even cake that's forced on you when you don't want it is pretty disgusting.
I do NOT teach my kids that they are better than everyone because of their faith. Again, that's totally not Christian. I KNOW moral atheists. Okay??? I AM NOT SAYING THAT CHRISTIANS ARE BETTER! We Christians just happen to acknowledge that we SIN and need salvation!!! I am not of the mindset that what is right for me may not be right for you, what's right for you may not be right for me. Truth is truth. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Evil is just downright evil. I believe in absolutes. Just because I think people who do not believe in Jesus are mistaken, by NO MEANS implies or infers or says that I believe that I am BETTER than they are or that they or their children deserve to die any more than I do or than my own children do. As Paul said, "Christ came to die for sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF!" I am not a self-righteous, hypocritical, high and mighty "holier than thou" Christian. Actually, people like that make me want to punch them in the neck with an ice pick. Not that I would-but it makes me consider it. I will be the first to admit my own short-comings, imperfections, and I'm fairly quick to apologize when I've been wrong. I'm not very humble sometimes, and that is something I need to work on, and it takes a LOT for me to bite my tongue. I'm surprised I even still have one.

Is it moral to make MY kids and other kids listen to anti-God/anti-Christian rhetoric? Is it moral to make my kids feel bad because they believe in creationism rather than evolutionism, and is it moral to teach them evolutionism as proven fact rather than theory? No. But it is ACCEPTABLE in today's society. We went from ONE extreme to another. Let us tolerate one another UNLESS you're a Christian. Fine. Because blessed are the persecuted.

12/21/12 7:01 P

I am surprised that your comments seem to have been ignored, Jennifer_67. You seem to be so on-topic and concise.

I totally agree that mental health assistance is difficult to obtain for many people. I was very lucky when my son presented symptoms. He is a paranoid schizophrenic. I live in Houston. Both the city and the county have many ways to get help for little or no money.

After he was diagnosed I did research online and found that my son had been presenting more subtle symptoms for years. I had no idea! When you have a teenager who oversleeps, doesn't want to do homework, and fights about doing chores you really don't suspect a mental illness! As I recall my teen days, that is normal - or maybe all teenagers are a bit loony...hahaha. So having more guidance as to signs of mental illness would be beneficial, I think.

I do not agree, however, that guns are too prevalent or too easy to obtain. Who stopped the movie theater shooter? As I understand it, it was a woman with a gun in her purse. Right now all fire arms legally sold must be sold by a licensed vendor. That vendor must submit an application for the buyer to have a background check done. This is only waived if the buyer has a recent check in their state file. Mental illness disqualifies a person from obtaining a weapon legally. Underage people get guns from their friends/family members. Those gun owners are responsible for keeping their weapons under lock and key.

An individual must obtain a conceal carry permit to keep a weapon in a purse or pocket. The woman in the theater had a permit. If school employees were permitted and carried weapons on campus it is unlikely that someone could walk into a school and kill 26 people in a matter of minutes.

JOYCECAIN SparkPoints: (137,463)
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12/21/12 6:51 P

I am really surprisedd that it has come down to the violence in schools. Schools should be a safe haven for kids.

ANARIE Posts: 13,184
12/21/12 6:30 P

" I don't understand how having an opinion about the situation and some of the factors that may have been a part of it is in ANY way being insensitive."

You may not understand, but it is EXTREMELY offensive. You're saying that this happened because the public schools don't teach YOUR religion. You're implying that people who don't believe in an anthropomorphic single supreme being are violent, or else that their children deserve to die. You're saying that people who don't believe in God the same way you do (or who do, but want their children to learn religion from church and home, not from public schools) are less moral than you are. That's about as insensitive as it gets.

It's ironic that you confused Brown v. Board with the Supreme Court rulings about prayer in schools (Engel v. Vitale or Santa Fe ISD v. Doe), because there is a similarity. Brown v. Board ended the majority's right to use the schools to teach white children to think they're better than black or brown children. Engel v. Vitale ended the majority's right to use the public schools to teach Judeo-Christian children that they're better than non-Judeo-Christian children.

If you're opposed to secular schools today, you probably would have been right there with the people opposed to integrated schools in 1954. An awful lot of people said that letting little black children into the schools was immoral, against the Bible, and would lead to terrible violence and a decline of the national morality, too. The segregationists were utterly and sincerely convinced that they were doing what God wanted, just like you are. They truly, genuinely believed that keeping the races apart was good and moral, just like you believe that making all children listen to religious speech is good and moral.

Just remember, if public schools can teach about Jesus, they also have to teach about Mohammad, Buddha, Shiva, Cthulhu, the Turtle Spirit, Quetzalcoatl, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and they have to teach that they're all equally good. I for one don't want my tax dollars going to teach the Koran, and that means they're not going to teach the Bible, either. Nobody is keeping your kids from praying; they just can't use public facilities to do it, or suggest that your way of praying is better than someone else's.

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 6:20 P

For anyone interested in reading an article regarding the ban of prayer in public schools, bible reading, and a few other historical things...Here's a link for you.

Once again, this is by no means a way for me to discount what happened at Sandy Hook. My heart BREAKS for the families, and I can't watch news about it without getting choked up and wanting to snuggle my kids, especially my six and a half year old son.

FITGLAMGIRL Posts: 2,045
12/21/12 6:20 P

I don't think it's just schools. I have been a bit paranoid shopping these days wondering when the next crazed person is going to walk in and start shooting everyone. I know that these are random shootings, but it seems that is all we hear about anymore.

I am also a bit scared sending my kids off to school everyday. Things seem really out of control now. We got a recorded vmail from our kids school last week saying they were stepping up security measures. Something good needs to happen in a big way.

I do agree on some points here, especially a father in the home and parents parenting not just not giving a crap about their kids. I mean really being an involved caring parent.

In the past month I have had two incidents of bullying on the bus of my daughter. I spoke up both times and talked with transportation and the school principal. Next step, if I have to get on that bus and say something to these boys I WILL! Trust me, these boys better be scared if they deal with ME! Ha Ha!

All of this needs to stop!

Edited by: FITGLAMGIRL at: 12/21/2012 (18:21)
GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 6:13 P

*high fives Neptune*

NEPTUNE1939 Posts: 16,990
12/21/12 6:07 P

What do people expect? There is no God in public schools, public morals are sorely missing in schools and in too many communities, and I could go on and on. It would do well to start arming the teachers.

MAMISHELI53 Posts: 16,108
12/21/12 5:58 P

I WORK in a public school.
I am an evangelical Christian - a self-proclaimed "Jesus Freak", strong in my beliefs, and I have to use great discretion. I can not "preach" my beliefs...but if asked, I can share on an individual basis. It often depends on the atmosphere in the individual school. But, as Raptor says, one has to be very careful because of all the stinking litigation brought about by those . who consider 'separation of church and state" to mean that one can NOT express ones faith - UNLESS it is NOT Judeo-Christian.
And I agree with Raptor. Granted, God is omnipresent. And He manages to maintain faithful remnants in even the most "God-forsaken" places. But why would Jesus instruct us to pray "Your will be done" if God's will was automatically accomplished? He wants all to be saved - but we know that not all are. The amazing thing is that He redeems our stupidity and sin.
Sometimes we need to be hit on the head with a two-by-four for Him to get our attention that we need Him.
And sometimes even His kids need to learn to play together nice.

ANARIE Posts: 13,184
12/21/12 5:51 P

Children are thousands of times more likely to be killed at home than at school. It may not seem like it, but schools are far safer than they were in past, and FAR safer than homes. Nowadays we hear about every death in a school, anywhere in the country. We don't hear about the hundred or so who die at home from abuse or accidents every day. Before the advent of cable TV, we didn't hear about the ones who died in fights or accidents at school.

By the way, do you know what was the worst school massacre in American history? No, not Sandy Hook. Not Columbine. It was Bath Township, Michigan.

In 1927.

That's right; almost 100 years ago.

The world is not a scary, evil place. Your children are safer than you were, and you were far safer than your grandparents. Just look at how many siblings you had and how many survived, compared to how many your grandparents or great-grandparents had. If you have two or three children today, you assume that all of them are going to live to grow up. It would be bizarre and tragic if one didn't. If your great-grandparents had two or three children, they pretty much expected to lose at least one of them. (My paternal grandmother lost one of two brothers, my paternal grandfather lost one of five, my maternal grandmother lost two of three sisters, and my maternal grandfather was never sure how many children were born in his family. He was the youngest, and they didn't talk about the siblings who died before he was born.)

As for the Maya calendar thing, that's just silliness. The Maya never said the world would end. This is just the end of the 13th katun. A katun is a period of about 5000 years, and at the end of it they start the numbers and names of the years/months over again. It's like the odometer of your car turning over; the car doesn't stop running just because you have to re-use the cycle and start at 000000001 again. If you're going to worry about the Mayan calendar "ending," you should also worry every time a particular date falls on the same day of the week. That's the same thing; it's just that the Maya had more names for months and days, so they could make a lot more combinations before "Wednesday, May 5" or "Saturday, October 17" would come around again. And we should have been totally freaked out nine days ago. Do you realize that "12/12/12" is the last repeating date any of us will live to see?

You shouldn't worry about the fact that the Maya didn't pay the calendar guys to make a 14th Katun calendar (that we know of) any more than you should worry that Hallmark hasn't printed a calendar to tell you what day of the week January 1st of 2101 will be. (The next repeating date, 01/01/01.) Just because the general public doesn't know whether 01/01/2101 is going to be a Monday or a Thursday, that doesn't mean the world is going to end on 12/31/2100. It's certainly not worth scaring your kids over.

In fact, why not celebrate? Make cocoa with real cocoa powder-- or better yet, whole cacao beans if you can find them! That was what the Maya used for money!-- and have a cocoa toast at midnight to ring in the new katun! We all need an excuse to celebrate after this week; the Mayan quintmillenium is a great one!

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 5:33 P

And in true Christian form, too. I'm impressed.(heavy on the sarcasm) Still refusing to apologize for wrongfully judging me, for insulting me, being self-righteous...I could go on and on about how wrong you are being right now, Luan. Your kind of attitude is what makes people bitter against Christians. Merry Christmas. I'm done with you, too.

*says through gritted teeth*

I am WELL aware that are MANY factors at work here with this tragedy and others. You(people) still can't deny that the secularization of schools might *possibly* have SOMETHING to do with this and other such tragedies. LIKE I said in my original post-Mankind is capable of ALL KINDS of evil. (One of them being unwilling to back down from self-righteousness and making snap judgments about people in general.)
I HAVE a six and a half year old first grader as well as a fifth grader who obviously was a first grader at one point, so I can ONLY imagine the pain that the parents, friends, and loved ones are going through. I don't understand how having an opinion about the situation and some of the factors that may have been a part of it is in ANY way being insensitive.

Edited by: GLITTERFAIRY77 at: 12/21/2012 (17:38)
LUANN_IN_PA Posts: 25,981
12/21/12 4:54 P

"We need to stop the posts about prayer and God not being allowed in schools in connection with the Connecticut tragedy. It portrays such a terrible and incorrect view of the character of God, and must come across as incredibly insensitive and harsh to anyone who is personally impacted by this tragedy. Also, it makes us Christians seem more concerned with pushing an agenda than we are concerned about caring for and supporting suffering people. Not to mention the fact that it oversimplifies all of the factors involved in this tragedy."

And that's all I'll say about that.
Rant on alone... I'm done here.

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 4:23 P

WRONG citation. My bad. Like I told you. I'm not perfect. I was wrong. However, it is STILL frowned upon to make mention of Jesus in MANY instances, in many schools, and people get still get offended and all up-in-arms when God is mentioned. You succeeded in making me feel stupid, so congratufreakinglations.

YOU are completely overlooking my point, though. You STILL jumped to a conclusion about me, and my character, based on what I wrote and ASSumed that I'm not a Christian because of it, which was completely wrong, insulting, and judgmental. So, good job with that.

LUANN_IN_PA Posts: 25,981
12/21/12 4:08 P

". However, Brown v. the Board of education clearly states that He isn't allowed there."

"Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U.S. 483 (1954), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court declared state laws establishing separate public schools for black and white students unconstitutional. " is the opening of the wiki article on B v BOE.

And it is not illegal to pray in schools. My kids did all the time. Kids still do...

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 3:32 P

I take umbrage to that, actually, if you would PAY ATTENTION to my signature.
Did I say that He isn't there? No. I did not. However, Brown v. the Board of education clearly states that He isn't allowed there.
And this is what happens.

Watch it.

God WAS essentially removed from schools. Yes, HE IS everywhere-even the darkest of dark places. We KNOW that. HOWEVER, making it illegal to pray in schools, being all politically correct with the curriculum, removing Creationism and Intelligent Design from the science class and teaching/preaching the theory of evolution as the ONLY fact, not giving children some sort of hope, telling them that this is all there is and all there ever will be...Need I go on? That is what I mean.
Next time, instead of jumping to conclusions about people, maybe you should either ASK them what they mean, or read it again...If you HAD, I would not be checking you for that comment.

Edited by: GLITTERFAIRY77 at: 12/21/2012 (15:38)
LUANN_IN_PA Posts: 25,981
12/21/12 2:45 P

"And this is what happens:
A) When you tell God he isn't allowed in the public schools"

Only a non-Christian would say something like that!
God is omnipotent and ever-present. There is no way He "isn't allowed" anywhere.

JENNIFER_67 SparkPoints: (0)
Fitness Minutes: (9,440)
Posts: 2,732
12/21/12 1:53 P

I am sure this will not be a popular response, but I need to say it. I think there are two main issues contributing to these events:

1) The difficulty in getting meaningful, long-term help for people with mental illnesses. I suspect that in most, if not all, of these cases the parents (whether they work or are stay-at-home parents) know that their child has serious problems. But getting them the help they need is very difficult.

2) The prevalence of guns. It is far too easy for mentally ill individuals (or even anyone with an anger issue) to get their hands on a gun. Yes, there are other ways to injure or kill people without a gun. But it is pretty difficult to walk into a school and kill 26 people in just a few minutes without one.

Edited by: JENNIFER_67 at: 12/21/2012 (14:56)
RONNIEHUEY Posts: 12,033
12/21/12 1:37 P

I spent 26 years working with troubled teens and "gang bangers"They crave the recognition and feel the glory of having their friends cry about losing them at their funerals.My daughter was a troubled young teen due to a sexual assault at school.I gave love and spent thousands of dollars on mental health counseling plus in hospital care.What helped ;one of her close friends OD'd and died. After the funeral everybody forgot the girl. Apparently there wasn't any glory in dying after all.My child's suicide attempts ceased.When she turned 18 she went to school to become an EMT.She had to work in the ER and in mental hospitals as part of her training. After one midnight shift she called me and thanked me for sticking with her in spite of my 16 hour shifts 6 days a week(thats how I paid for her care).Now that child is 22 and in the army.She came back from Afghanistan in October.I'm so proud of this child.I would do the long hours and heartache all over again to save her or any child.Kind of off the subject but had to write it anyway.

GLITTERFAIRY77 Posts: 8,023
12/21/12 1:23 P

And this is what happens:
A) When you tell God he isn't allowed in the public schools
B)When you tell parents that it is illegal to discipline their kids at all because it is too hard to define the line between abuse and discipline (No. It really isn't.)
C) When it is acceptable to promote violent shows and video games and books to children
D) When parents try to be their kids' friends rather than their parents
E) Parents could give to spits about their kids altogether.

It's sad, and it is scary-but stuff happens. Mankind is capable of all types of evil.

FENWAYGIRL18 Posts: 5,868
12/21/12 1:01 P

I didn't send my son to school today as he was telling me kids were talking about something going on today and then I got a call from the school saying how people were talking about something going on today and said it would be safe.... If the school was trying to make me feel better it didn't and if I was going to send them to school regardless of the calendar after that call it made it much easier to call him out for today!
I wasn't taking any chances so he's home with us and to be honest I have said for a few years I want him and my hubby home on this day just in case that Myan calendar stuff just happened to be true...

Edited by: FENWAYGIRL18 at: 12/21/2012 (13:02)
12/21/12 11:41 A

Yes, there are definitely issues at school that I didn't have to deal with when I was young. When we moved to Houston we were in a pretty bad school district. Luckily my daughter had a great education before we moved, because she didn't learn anything academic at the high school she had to attend! She did learn some important things, however - like how to not be shot and how to not be raped in the girls bathroom.

I think there are quite a few things that contribute to the problem. For one thing, most mothers have to work nowadays. They are not home providing guidance to their children. This is not a 'dis' on mothers. There is generally no choice but to work! The majority of homes have no father in them. In the homes where there is a father, most families can't make ends meet with only one paycheck. So the children do not have the loving guidance and protection that most children had when I was growing up.

There is also this feeling that children should never fail at anything. Failure is important! You can't appreciate your achievements if we don't experience failure. Children also need to learn how to productively deal with disappointment and challenge. The current trend of giving every player on every team a trophy does not give children the opportunity to learn how to grow from defeat. When they face something uncomfortable they don't know how to deal with it.

There are also far too many violent movies and games available to children. They learn that the way to reply to a challenge is with violence. You take a child with little or positive direction, feed him with violent influences, and he (or she) will respond violently to a negative situation.

Unfortunately, there are also many people in this world with genuine mental health issues. I don't know if the percentage of the population has increased, or it's just that the population is so much larger than it used to be, so the number of unhealthy people has increased. When it comes to young people with mental health issues, if the parents were able to spend more time with them they would see the signs. Since most parents don't have this opportunity, children slip through the cracks.

I wish I had an answer to all this; a solution. It is frustrating and terrifying.

TIG123GER SparkPoints: (77,547)
Fitness Minutes: (17,448)
Posts: 2,116
12/21/12 11:29 A

I know what you mean...I teach at a university and we had a major shooting in 2008 and I have to say that I'm scared to go back to work after the holidays. Sad...

I_HEART_MY_FAM Posts: 1,809
12/21/12 10:51 A

Two bad incidents at schools nearby me yesterday. One was my old school I graduated from and where my girls attended. My youngest is still in school but transferred to the east campus this year, the problem was on the west campus. A kid took a loaded gun to school and showed some friends in gym, somehow he was found out and got arrested in his next class. A mother called in after her child told her that the kid with gun said he took it to shoot the boy who he argued with the day before. Another school, different school district, a boy was found with three pipe bombs with minus one chemical of exploding. They are seeing if he will be linked to two other incidents with pipe bombs being found on campus earlier in the year. Schools seem like the worse place to send your kids these days. I feel lucky my oldest daughter will graduate this year, and I have high hopes in thinking my daughter and SIN will home school my grandson. Seems like bars are safer then schools these days!

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