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GDBEAR65 SparkPoints: (0)
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6/11/13 12:58 P

I think the article overstates the catabolic effects of sleep. Your body has to renew and regenerate - there is always going to be some degree of catabolic activity occuring as you sleep. Whey protein digests quickly and will help start your day but I don't think you need to buy 2 seperate proteins - I suggest buying some Milk Protein Isolate, which has exactly the same ratio of casein to whey as milk (80/20) and it is micellar casein as opposed to casseinate, which is what is usually offered as Casein protein. Micellar casein's cell structure remains intact so it is highly anabolic and has better health benefits than caseinate. sells MPI for around $8 / pound - good company and excellent customer service. You can also make your own custom mix of proteins and supplements.

ERICWS SparkPoints: (8,307)
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6/10/13 8:19 P

Thanks Anarie. That's why I stopped by here to ask. If whey and casein are part of whole foods naturally, and separated artificially, that is what I was curious about. I am interested in natural foods, as opposed to eating contrived stuff. But if casein is available naturally apart from whey in certain foods, maybe I'd eat those foods at certain times.

As for the article, like I said it was in an e-mail newsletter. I cited the author/source, but couldn't find a link.

I appreciate your insight. And not being snarky about it.

ANARIE Posts: 13,179
6/10/13 7:37 P

I don't think Simone meant to be nasty. A lot of people don't understand that studies that seem trivial are usually part of a much larger picture. I guessed even before reading the study abstract that it was probably part of a starvation or wasting disease study-- but people who haven't been forced to study research methodology aren't going to get it. Anyway, I'd suggest taking Simone's comment as an expression of surprise, not malice. There wasn't anything personal in it.

One little note, though: Copying an entire article is against the site terms of use. Would you mind editing it down for fair use? Put in a clickable link, then include no more than one or two paragraphs of the article, or summarize it in your own words. That'll protect SparkPeople against any copyright kerfuffles.

That said, I think the author put 2 + 2 together and got 7. The fact that casein and the proteins in whey work slightly differently does NOT mean you need to take them separately and in isolation. If you drink a glass of milk or have a little cheese before bed, you're getting your casein. The fact that you're also getting other proteins doesn't hurt anything. Same thing with having milk or yogurt for breakfast-- yes, there's casein, but there's also plenty of the other proteins; you don't have to have plain whey.

Even in the abstract, the researchers made a point of saying that it's "a concept to be applied to wasting situations." In other words, when you have someone who's starving or ill and every molecule of protein counts, you want to make sure they get both kinds. So this study really would be most meaningful for, say, famine relief emergency foods. It's typical to send casein powder supplements, but according to this study, whole-protein supplements like dry milk would be better than casein or whey alone.

If the research really said what the author interprets it to say (and it doesn't; the study used both proteins together) and if you were planning to get your protein from supplements only, it might make sense to take your casein at night and your whey in the morning, but if you're already eating dairy, there's no reason to separate it out. Whole is still better than the separate parts.

ERICWS SparkPoints: (8,307)
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6/10/13 1:20 P

No need to be nasty about it, Simone. Very uncool of you.

I got this from an e-mail newsletter from a web site called "runnersconnect". The premise of the author's e-mail was that runners can learn how to better benefit from protein intake from how bodybuilders use proteins. I'll copy the whole letter here.

As a runner, I bet you never thought there might be something you could learn from your hulking, gym rat brethren.

But, if there is one thing I learned from being around some of the best coaches in the world, it's that there are always opportunities to learn from the science and practice of sports outside our focus.

While I believe that a majority of a runner's training needs to be running-specific to maximize potential, examining the techniques and training practices used by athletes outside the running world can open our eyes to revolutionary training and nutrition insights.
Take running and bodybuilding as an example. At first glance, it might seem fruitless to look for training secrets across these two diametrically opposed disciplines: one sport celebrates the phrase "gaunt is beautiful" while the other strives to chisel muscle like a sculptor.
However, I believe runners can learn something from the training and nutrition plans espoused by bodybuilders. Specifically, how to use protein isolates (different types of protein) to maximize recovery. Bodybuilders are masters at supplementing their training with protein at just the right time to fuel their muscles and spark recovery - something all runners could benefit from.
To understand how runners can capitalize on this lesson from bodybuilders, we must first examine how protein works to help muscles recover and prevent muscle break down. Using this knowledge, we can then understand how supplementing with specific protein types at precise times of day can help take your recovery to the next level.
Anabolic and catabolic energy pathways
To maximize recovery, runners need to keep their bodies in a muscle building state (or more scientifically an anabolic state). As you may already know, running causes the muscles to break down and form micro tears, which need to be repaired in order to get stronger and faster. Anabolism is the metabolic pathway that repairs these muscle fibers and stimulates muscle growth.
The body needs energy for the anabolic process to occur. With an adequate supply of energy and nutrients, the body can quickly rebuild muscle and allow you to recover faster. However, when your body doesn't have adequate fuel to sustain the anabolic process, it begins to break down muscle to supply the body with the energy it needs. This break down of muscle tissue is called catabolism.
It's pretty obvious to bodybuilders why you wouldn't want to break down muscle tissue - muscles are the reason they spend hours in the gym. That's why they consume protein shakes like runners do ice cream.
Unfortunately, most runners fear that building muscle will "get them big", so they avoid muscle building nutrients like protein. This causes many runners to be in a perpetual state of catabolism, which hampers recovery and doesn't maximize fitness gains.
The truth is, using protein intelligently and at the right times won't make you bigger at all. In fact, it may get you leaner - not to mention recovered faster. So, here are the two main types of protein supplements you should be using as a runner and when you should be implementing them into your diet to maximize recovery.
Casein protein: Delaying the catabolic process
Your body undergoes the catabolic process every night while you're asleep. While you're sleeping, your body is literally eating its own muscle because you've been fasting all night long. When you're trying to recovery from a hard workout or prepare your body for an upcoming track session, this is far from optimal.
To delay and lessen the catabolic process at night, you need to supplement your diet with a protein that is slow to digest and that provides your body with muscle building nutrients all night long. Luckily, bodybuilders have done the heavy lifting for us (pun intended) and found the perfect slow-digesting form of protein - casein.
Casein is a protein derived from milk that releases a steady stream of amino acids over a 3 to 4 hour period. Therefore, it is the perfect protein and ideal supplement to consume before bedtime. In one study, consuming casein protein before bedtime resulted in a 34% reduction in protein breakdown. In essence, consuming casein protein before bedtime could speed up your rate of recovery by 34 percent.
Whey protein: Restarting the anabolic process
Even if you're taking casein protein before bed, you'll still have some muscle breakdown when you wake up - one serving of casein protein can't halt muscle breakdown for 7-9 hours on it's own. Therefore, you need to halt the catabolic process as soon as possible, which means consuming a quick-digesting protein.
Again, thanks to the help from our bodybuilder brethren, we know that whey is the fastest digesting form of protein. Like casein, whey is also a protein derived from milk and is the ideal way to release a quick dose of amino acids and proteins to starving muscles.
Drinking whey protein causes an increase in blood amino acids levels in under an hour, with peak levels at just under 90 minutes. So, in the mornings you should consume a serving of whey protein to stop the catabolic process and keep your body on its muscle building trajectory. Likewise, whey is also the form of protein commonly used in recovery drinks because of it is absorbed by the body so quickly.
Putting it together in a nutrition plan
The final step is combining what we've learned from our bodybuilder friends and applying it specifically to running.
If you really want to boost the recovery after your hardest workout days, you should consider supplementing your nutrition with a protein shake.
Of course, many runners hear the words "protein shake" and immediately think of bulking up or gaining weight. However, there is a big difference between weight gainer or meal replacement shakes and pure protein shakes. Pure protein shakes contain about as many calories (130) as a tablespoon of peanut butter. So, consuming a protein shake or two is not going to cause you to gain weight; there simply isn't enough calories.
In the evening, you should have one serving of casein protein powder with a glass of milk. Personally, I find casein shakes blended with milk to taste pretty good (peanut butter is my favorite) and it's a great substitute for empty-calorie desserts. As noted before, casein will reduce muscle breakdown while you sleep - giving a huge step up over Oreo cookies.
In the morning, you should consume one serving of whey protein powder with a glass of water. This will halt the nighttime catabolism and spark muscle recovery. If you're training hard, especially if you're running twice per day, this will jump start the anabolic process like no other supplement combination. Plus, drinking the whey protein with the water will rehydrate you, something all runners could use help with.
Final recommendations
When shopping for protein powders, look for the first ingredient to be whey protein isolate for your whey protein and miceller casein for your casein powders. With whey, at least 80% of the supplement should be protein (divide the grams of protein by the grams per serving). For casein, this number should be over 65%.
...If you're looking for a way to boost your recovery rate and fine-tune your diet, adding casein and whey protein shakes to your routine could be just the ticket.

SIMONEKP Posts: 2,696
6/10/13 12:07 P

Haven't heard that there's a study for everything.

ANARIE Posts: 13,179
6/10/13 11:39 A

From what I can tell, the research showing a difference is extremely preliminary, and it really only would apply to cutting-edge body-building types (or people with muscle disorders) anyway. I don't think it's worth buying special products at this point. As far as natural products, whey isolate has whey, cheese (of any sort) is high in casein, and milk has both. You can reduce the whey and create a higher concentration of casein in any dairy product by straining-- Greek style yogurt has less whey than regular, for example. If you do it yourself-- make homemade yogurt and strain it-- you get both the high-casein yogurt and the whey, which you can use in place of buttermilk in recipes, or use in smoothies.

DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (61,271)
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6/10/13 10:35 A

Do you have a link to the article? Did it cite sources?

ERICWS SparkPoints: (8,307)
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6/10/13 10:17 A

I read an article that says it is a good idea to have whey protein in the morning, and casein proteins in the evening, as whey jumpstarts things and casein works best in an overnight setting- obviously I'm skipping the science behind this!

Just curious- sound true?

If yes, are there specific natural foods out there that are better than another for why and casein? Thank you.

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