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DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/14/13 7:23 P

I have been slain by KJ's use of l33t speak!

*is ded*

w00t indeed!

KJFITNESSDUDE Posts: 15,787
6/14/13 4:57 P

Honestly, folks, this is the most grammatically correct thread EVER here at SP!

w00t!


OBIESMOM2 SparkPoints: (212,705)
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6/14/13 4:48 P

LIKE used as DragonChilde described is also very prevalent with young people. If I spend too much time with them, or listen to too many radio morning shows targeted to that demographic...it's contagious.
Like, totally. OMG!

DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/14/13 2:56 P

Oh my god, ANARIE, you just hit on one of my major annoyances. Verbal tics!

I work for a company based on the west coast; I live on the east coast. When we do video meetings, sometimes I get tickled to death because of their excessive verbal tics! "Like" and "you know" happens in literally every sentence. One person is so bad that we often joke that if we had a drinking game where you had to drink when this person says "like", you'd die of alcohol poisoning in 30 minutes or less! That's not quite what you were talking about; your point is actually quite sensible! I've heard it used that way before, and it doesn't bother me at all.

I've heard it's a common Californian tic; I don't have enough experience to say, but it certainly seems that way.

My own verbal tics drive me even more nuts, because I'm aware of them and I can't stop it! When I'm nervous, for example in an interview, I tend to end every sentence with "and things like that." I hear myself say it, and groan internally, but I can't STOP!

ANARIE Posts: 13,120
6/14/13 1:33 P

Clark971,

I think "first annual" originally was a humorous way of saying that we intend to make this new program an annual event, but the irony/humor was lost pretty quickly and it entered the language seriously.

For issues like this, especially in journalism, I think the best guideline is to ask yourself whether there's another equally efficient way to convey the same idea. In the case of "first annual," I can't think of one. If someone is announcing an event and wants people to know that they plan to make it a yearly, repeating thing, "first annual" is pretty much the only way to do it.

By the way, that's why I have no objection to hearing people say, "He was like, 'What are you going to do about it?'" In that context, 'was like' is different from 'said'. In two words, the speaker is actually saying, "I'm going to paraphrase him, not use his exact words, and in fact my tone and expressions are going to be more important than the words themselves, so focus on my delivery." A thirty-two-word idea compressed into one! Any "verbal crutch" that makes language that much more efficient is okay in my book! (Well, actually, not in my book, because it's a speech effect that doesn't work in print, but you know what I mean...)

DIDS70 Posts: 5,368
6/14/13 1:22 P

Love this thread. As an English Major, grammar is important to me. I inwardly cringe at some of the lack of grammar on posts, but I choose not to ignore it for the most part.

I can't remember if it was DRAGONCHILDE or some other poster who said that the thread made them laugh and couldn't find any negativity. I didn't find any negativity either in the original post and I also laughed my head off. Laughter is one of the best things for weight loss. Also this site is relationship building. This thread enforced the idea of relationships as posters shared opinions and belly laughs.

I have been following DRAGONCHILDE and several others on this site for some time. I love their threads.

ANARIE Posts: 13,120
6/14/13 1:19 P

You know, I've always wondered why homonyms and other spelling issues are easy for some people and hard for others. Some people never have any trouble with "there," "their," and "they're," for example. They tell us the difference in second or third grade and it makes perfect sense, so we write those things from then on. Other people struggle with it for a lifetime. It's not a matter of intelligence; I've known incredibly brilliant people who write "They said their to busy too correct they're paradigm this weak but there going to put it first on there agenda for Monday."

And it does matter. If you're a fast reader, a sentence like the one above takes twice as long to read because you have to sound it out. Even though "to" and "too" sound alike, in speed reading they're very different-- you just skip over "to" without really processing it except as a connector, but "too" has a similar effect to boldface-- it tells you that the following word deserves extra attention. Put "too" where you mean "to," and I spend a second or maybe more looking for the adjective or adverb. It's subconscious, but a message with a lot of errors is going to make a fast reader (or a weak reader) angry or tired. Honestly, I do skip messages with lots of these types of errors, because they're difficult to read. Either they take too much time, or they make me subtly cranky. If I were the supervisor or coworker of someone who constantly sent me written communication that took extra time and effort to read, would I be justified in being frustrated and irritable with them?

In fact, that would be an interesting study. When people don't get along in the workplace, could spelling and grammar be a factor?

MATTHEW0498 SparkPoints: (32,853)
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6/14/13 11:39 A

I take online classes and you would scream if you saw some of the horrendous posts I've seen. emoticon

FIRECOM SparkPoints: (0)
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6/14/13 11:12 A

I spent a lot of my professional life as a proof reader so I am really sensitive to this topic. I don't understand why some don't follow the rules of grammar. For example. One rule is that if there are two consonants side by side, both are pronounced. Take for example, Caribbean. That should be Ca rib be an. Many pronounce that as Car rib e an. Grrr.

Another is Sheriff. According to the rules, that should be pronounced Sher rif.

I am of the opinion, texting is ruining proper use of words and their spelling.

DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/14/13 11:02 A

A lot of my peevishness comes from being a writer, but too, the fact that among teens, SAT reading/writing scores are *lower* than they have been since the 70s, and you can't tell me that online communication is not at least partially to blame for that! College professors lament the horrible standards of communication their students turn in... COLLEGE level work, not high school.

When there is no standard, it does hurt people. I will never apologize for being bothered by this sort of thing, because it's important to me. :) Some people get passionate about political causes, religious beliefs, or sometimes fitness and health. ;) This is my passion.

And I have to say, I've been surprised at how little negative feedback, so it stands to reason I'm not alone!

And for those who talk about making mistakes... it's not about errors or speed, or being perfect. I make mistakes, too. In fact, some people may notice that I almost always have an "edited" tag on my posts here. That's because after I quickly click "post", I usually find errors that I have to go back and fix.

When casually communicating, of course you're going to slip into the vernacular, and use sentence fragments, and sometimes even text speak. I'm not talking about that. (Although I deliberately bought a phone with a qwerty keyboard because I don't like to use abbreviations in texts) I'm talking about the very basics of usage, of simple concepts that my first grader learned last year in school. *1st grade vocabulary* - I don't think it's unreasonable to be sad or even annoyed when adults, people who have ostensibly been to school and have professional lives now, are unable to differentiate between homonyms.

When I see it used in professional settings, such as signs, professional communications, or even business emails? It's a good sign that these people aren't people I want to do business with.

Edited by: DRAGONCHILDE at: 6/14/2013 (11:05)
MYUTMOST4HIM Posts: 11,453
6/14/13 9:37 A

I don't think this falls into the grammer category but this expression is often miss "quoted:
I could care less" when the correct expression is "I COULDN'T care less"

other than that - my DH always says tooken for taken - UGH

SHERYLDS Posts: 17,132
6/14/13 9:33 A

Since language is constantly evolving, I would expect that some of the more common texting abbreviations will become perfectly acceptable as part of our language in the same way that we accept DVD instead of insisting on digital video disc.

JGIRL5799 Posts: 561
6/14/13 8:23 A

I agree totally on that one totally Pacarolsue.

My co-workers still use those in their business emails all the time and I wonder why the businesses are not cracking down on that because of how unprofessional that really is.



Edited by: JGIRL5799 at: 6/14/2013 (08:24)
PACAROLSUE SparkPoints: (4,521)
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6/14/13 8:04 A

JGIRL - The text abbreviations used to really bother me until I started to text, now I understand the time it saves. But when I still worked, the woman next to me used those in her business emails, and I felt that that was really wrong and wondered what the person receiving the email must have thought.

CLARK971 SparkPoints: (29,686)
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6/14/13 7:59 A

When I was in college, I learned (in my journalism class) that 1st annual was incorrect. An event couldn't be called annual until the 2nd one. It could be called 1st ever that 1st year.

That one always bugged me when I saw it. Is 1st annual now ok?





JGIRL5799 Posts: 561
6/14/13 7:08 A

LOL this thread has been very entertaining to me to say the least, However, I know for a fact I am the least grammar, political correct person you will ever meet. I had to put my two cents in because I am on the other spectrum end of not being so grammar correct, and I know I drive those that are nuts... and I will admit, grammar is my biggest downfall. It's not because of lack of education, it is just one of those things on how I talk, and I tend to type exactly how I talk.

I have a huge issue and habit of doing ................. usually when I stop to think or pause, but that is because of role playing and I find myself doing that a lot in my blogs or posts.

I know what I want to say and I will, Just may not come out as how grammar correctness Goddesses people may like.

But It's really hard for me to have grammar pet peeves when I know for a fact I do it myself all the time... the texting thing drives me nuts with the short cuts and I have a friend or two that will actually SAY LOL, O M G as they talk... now, I think that is the worst thing that will happen and I will ram them for that, but most of friends have a rule with me that if they have to send more than 2 texts on whats going on they better be calling me..

As for the grammar thing on the forums, violation, I could be a millionaire for all the mistakes I know for a fact I make. I did not find this thread to be negative at all nor as a personal attack.. It was just a great reminder on how things can be done better and it brings out the attention that yes, we do have to pay attention just a bit closer. Yes, I do love to learn things and to take things in a bit. Remembering? Well, that is another story LOL.

Mind you, its not out of wrath or wishing to tick off the most grammar correct people.. I think for myself my brain works faster than my fingers LOL, I do try to correct a lot of my stuff, it's why you see almost in all my posts they are always edited LOL

It's all in fun on the forums here for me for sure, but I know for a fact, being on a grammar win list to most will never happen and I do not expect it, but when I do post, I "try" to take into consideration some grammar rules.. but when time is short here and there, grammar or being politically correct is the least of my concerns. I just want to say something and go.

I am just very, very thankful for the red lines to correct my spelling errors :-))

Edited by: JGIRL5799 at: 6/14/2013 (08:01)
SHERYLDS Posts: 17,132
6/14/13 6:49 A

I guess some of us are hot wired to be more focused on the ideas being exchanged rather than the rules of grammar being violated. I am so much more interested in the substance that I barely see the technical errors as I read thru blogs and comments. For me, brevity is more of an issue than grammar. When someone takes forever to get a point across, I get bored half way thru and go to the next one.

ANGHARAD3 Posts: 966
6/14/13 6:37 A

It is really annoying to hear someone say "This is her". I also hate it when "ly" is not added to an adverb. I don't think I am being picky. There are rules in math so why not in English? Too many people choose to use poor grammar and then are surprised when their children perform poorly in school or on standardized tests.

OBIESMOM2 SparkPoints: (212,705)
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6/14/13 6:11 A

@KENDILYNN - that one gets me too. It's like nails on a chalkboard

BITTERQUILL Posts: 1,639
6/14/13 12:02 A

I am in 100% agreement, DRAGONCHILDE.

It's a "pet peeve" (one that I happen to share), not a personal attack, and there's no need for anyone to take it personally. Yes, this is a health and wellness website. Yes, communication matters regardless of the site's focus; it is an inherent element of any textual medium.

Edited by: BITTERQUILL at: 6/14/2013 (00:03)
AGITATOR1 SparkPoints: (3,782)
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6/13/13 11:47 P

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EMMYERS76 SparkPoints: (10,444)
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6/13/13 10:42 P

I love your rant; it made me chuckle. My biggest pet peeves are: there, their, and they're and your and you're.

ANARIE Posts: 13,120
6/13/13 10:22 P

There's a big difference between criticizing someone's grammar and writing a separate, completely non-individualized post that warns right in the title line that it's not going to be positive and might not even be particularly rational. How can someone be offended by the content of a thread that declares itself as a "peeve?"

Now, if people criticized this thread for "preaching to the choir," I might agree. I don't think anyone who has serious issues with grammar is likely to choose this thread to read-- although if they did, it might be a gentle way to have some basic issues pointed out. In my second language, I learned more and was hurt less by comments like, "Did you ever notice how English-speaking people always say this?" than by having my errors ignored until I made a fool of myself in an important moment. I mean, really, if you were a person who didn't know the difference between "you're" and "your" and you read it here, would you think, "OMG, I can't believe how negative this post was?" Or would you think, "Gosh, I never realized that, but I'm going to try to pay more attention. I'm not sure whether I do it right or not"? The people who are offended are people who don't have the problem to begin with.





1STATEOFDENIAL Posts: 4,529
6/13/13 10:18 P

Heather, I saw your status and wanted to find the post to see what was going on. When I read your post here, I thought to myself that you said much of what I frequently think but rarely am willing to say. There are some people who I completely avoid because my cognitive decline from my medical conditions actually makes it painful to attempt to figure out what they're trying to say. If it's someone I know well I might mention something in person or in a private setting, though I rarely find it worth my effort. Unfortunately, I grew up in a small town where half of my class left high school before graduating and many of my classmates had such a tenuous hold on the English language that even their speech was below average. I've dated plenty of guys who couldn't compose a proper sentence to save a life. Over time I became used to ignoring the errors because no amount of correction stuck long enough to make a real difference. These guys found physical jobs (like working in a factory) that gave them success while requiring little to no written communication, so power to them. That being said, the number of business executives and managers I've worked with who are incapable of using proper grammar and spelling often makes me wonder what's the real future of America's businesses.

With the introduction of electronic communication, spell check, grammar check, and especially platforms such as texting and tweeting that have a character limit, there's been a continual 'dumbing down' of society. There are published books being released that lack review by proper editor, yet rake in money like fall leaves. Looking at the words being added to the dictionary in the last few years makes me wonder when it became okay to shower mediocrity with attention and praise. In everyday language use, the unspoken rules for what is acceptable have fallen dramatically; following close behind was the idea that anyone could be a writer with little or no effort. Anyone can self-publish a book that makes writers, those who have nurtured their craft, cringe in disbelief. Gone are the days when the likes of Dickens, Tolstoy, the Bronte sisters, and hundreds of other incredible writers would put in incredible effort to make the best work possible then be revered for doing so. We can mourn the loss to society, while also understanding that society has never been fair or equal when it came to education, intelligence, or experience. Those of us who have chosen to put in the time and effort to understand the complexities of our language did so because it is important to us, but for many others just getting their point across is their only goal. It may grate on our nerves now and again, but we also have the choice to just ignore it and move on. Our energies are often better used elsewhere. (That's not to say I disagree with you starting this thread. I'm just trying to open up the landscape beyond your point.)

There are several grammar errors that bother me, in addition to what you posted. I might accept when someone doesn't understand the difference, except these are two totally different words. When you shorten the word "until", there is only one L remaining which is not enough to go till a field. To and too are two different words, and only one of those can be replaced with "also". The English language is a minefield of rules and exceptions, mistaken meanings, words near impossible to spell, etc. It doesn't help that society is continuing to evolve the language as time passes. There are many other grammatical and spelling errors that make me do a *facepalm* (see what I did there?) for the person who made the error.

At the same time, when it comes to informal communication, many people use different tactics to convey tone and meaning. For me, I use " " to quote a word or phrase as is. I use ' ' to convey "I don't exactly mean the exact definition of this word, but I'm being snarky and don't want to play verbal gymnastics to fully explain my point." When I first started talking online in the mid 90s, * * was used to convey an action (see the end of the previous paragraph). Thus, when I'd enter a chat room and wanted to make it know that I was there and ready to talk, I'd frequently type: *Enters the room, runs up the wall, and sits on the ceiling.* It was a way to get people's attention in a unique way. If I were to write a novel and include such punctuation use I'd be ridiculed. For emphasis, I either find a way to verbally set off a word or I capitalize ONLY that word. It puts a hard emphasis that makes it difficult to miss that I want the reader to notice that word above others. Then there's the use of the - key, which for some people they prefer to use - or -- instead of commas, but I use - sparingly only as a way to emphasize a portion of text in a more subtle way without turning it into a side note by using ( ). Is my use of these punctuations proper? Perhaps yes, perhaps no; but, it is my style and it makes my writing more personalized. (Personalization of writing style is one way that writers get attention and reminds their readers of the author they're reading. For instance, it's doubtful that someone would mistake Anne Rice for Stephen King when reading their novels because their styles are different.)

Now, I also turn the mirror upon myself for review. I make plenty of errors, and far more often now than I ever did before my medical conditions started hijacking my brain. Now I find myself writing incomplete thoughts, run on sentences, forgetting words, and making spelling and grammatical errors I wouldn't have made 10 or 15 years ago. I used to be able to make myself quite clear with a single draft and rarely ever had to go back and edit myself. Now I can edit a post five times and still find errors that make me wonder if my brain short circuited. Sometimes I'll end up almost totally rewriting something that took 3 hours to type, because I took a tangent out into left field, hopped the fence, and ended up in Antarctica with a penguin taking a dump on my keyboard. Does that mean I haven't put significant effort into my writing? Nope. I just made some stupid errors because my brain isn't able to work as efficiently as it once did. Then there are the times that I'm highly medicated due to my conditions, but want to try to express something before I lose the courage to release it to the world. Then my writing is not only difficult to understand and near impossible to follow, but it is laced with raging emotions. Of course, I sometimes greatly regret those posts even though they may have helped me in the moment. Of course, then there's the fact that no matter what I do I have never been able to figure out the who/whom rule, to the point where it actually bothers me and makes me rewrite entire paragraphs to avoid it.

As usual, I just wrote an incredibly long message in an attempt to get across a simple point: I agree that there are many people in the world who do not use proper spelling and grammar rules for their language and dialect; however, it is up to the reader to choose to forgive the errors, point them out (at risk of offending), or ignore the writing completely. Though, if we keep in mind there might be a real reason for the writing issues and post a generalized statement instead of singling out specific people (just as you did here), perhaps those who were never taught or forgot the rules might actually be open to the indirect corrections. Besides, you're allowed to have your opinions and feelings (pet peeves are based upon feelings, after all) just like everyone else may react strongly to the message for whatever reason and take it in a way that was not intended. Communication always has and always will be a two-way street, even if online it becomes a huge traffic jam of confused messages.

Edited by: 1STATEOFDENIAL at: 6/13/2013 (22:24)
MAGGIEMAGGIE5 Posts: 131
6/13/13 10:14 P

I have so thoroughly enjoyed this thread, mostly because I also appreciate good grammar.

I'm still laughing to myself over the tee shirt: let's eat, grandpa... let's eat grandpa!!!

I personally know two people with poor grammar and spelling, and whatever they write lacks accuracy and clarity. They are much better with the spoken word. I figure grammar is not their strong suit... just as many people are weak in math. I just let it go.

Thanks, DRAGONCHILDE and all who posted for a great read.
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UMBILICAL Posts: 12,786
6/13/13 9:31 P

I's ain'ts gots nones nohows

KENDILYNN SparkPoints: (22,680)
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6/13/13 9:24 P

I have a friend who says "seen" instead of "saw." As in, "I seen this thing the other day." It's seriously cringe-worthy! She also says "supposably" rather than "supposedly." I've thought about correcting her, because I honestly believe she is smarter than her language suggests, but I haven't figured out a way to approach her about it tactfully.

JULIA1154 Posts: 1,783
6/13/13 8:11 P

I would like to thank both Heather and Icedemeter for saving me the trouble of writing out what I have thought so often reading posts both here and elsewhere.

I certainly did not take the original post as negative.

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DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/13/13 6:27 P

BLUENOSE63, see, that's not incorrect! And personally, I would NEVER call someone out for mistakes in a post publicly. If I feel that it's important enough, I might (and I emphasize *might*) send them a note privately, a friendly suggestion, but no more. But honestly, I will never get people that feel compelled to comment on it without any need. I mean, in a discussion like this, I would fully expect someone to call me out for incorrect usage (because honestly, it would be hilarious, and on topic) but there is no value in derailing another conversation for it.

The only time I ever say something to someone is when it's appropriate... my other website is a writing site, and I've been known to send gentle notes to new members who use incomprehensible l33tspeak that if they would like the community to engage with them more, they should probably attempt to speak English. LOL. Or, if someone's talking about a conversation on how to spell something, I'll obviously correct someone who has answered incorrectly. Because you know.

But you're not misspelling anything! That's just regional differences. Heck, if you wanted to, you could correct all of OUR misspellings, because your version is the original!

BLUENOSE63 SparkPoints: (108,021)
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6/13/13 6:15 P

A bit off topic but I hate when people point out spelling mistakes in my posts. Yes it is true we Canadians use a different dictionary than a lot of other countries. Why? Well my country used to be part of the British Commonwealth until they set us free, so to speak! Canadians and Britans, along with a few other countries that used to be under British rule, follow the "King's English". A few examples for everyone: favour, centre, millimetre and neighbour. All of which have extra vowels or letters in different places than their American counterparts.



ICEDEMETER Posts: 1,332
6/13/13 6:03 P

Asterisks? Asterisks! Well, phooey - that never occurred to me!

Thanks, Dragonchilde, for not only answering me, but also demonstrating how well they work. Of course, now that the obvious has been pointed out, I'm seeing all sorts of posts where folks use asterisks and I'd just read the intonation without noticing the tool (precisely as it should be). Hey, I may be slow, but eventually I can be edumacated!

(Now I just need to learn how to put together a sentence without having to go back and edit out my usual bursts of profanity...)

I find it really interesting that I took your rant as a light-hearted opening to what could be a fun conversation. I actually went back to re-read it to see where I had missed the negativity - still can't find it. emoticon

That link on the quotation marks is way fun, by the way --- I'll be wasting some serious time there... emoticon

SINGERA9 SparkPoints: (4,307)
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6/13/13 5:58 P

Dragonchilde,

"I haven't pointed out anyone's errors... I'm simply making general statements about things I've noticed. Whether or not people need or want others to make judgments, they do! It's simply human nature. I often *don't* read poorly punctuated walls of text. And it makes me sad when I have to, because often the people in question have something of value to say, but because they didn't take the time to communicate effectively, their contribution is lost on me."

Yes, people make judgments all the time. That doesn't mean that you're right or that you have to share them.

"Not everything here has to be motivating, or welcoming to newbies. ;) My rant was just like any other thread here in the cafe... random, off topic, and something on my mind. Sometimes, my goal isn't to inspire or motivate, but simply to converse! And this post has done exactly what I intended to it. I'm not in a bad mood at all... by "twitchy" I meant just that. I'm feeling restless and want to talk! "

1. I'm not a newbie to this site or to this kind of community in general. I don't post very often.
2. How does one converse about this topic without being negative?

"Honestly now, that was uncalled for. I haven't been negative at all! I'm simply talking about an unrelated peeve, as many people here often do. Not everything here has to be about weight loss, or even positive. And certainly not "welcoming". I would NEVER say anything about someone's "minor victory" because as those here who know me know, I celebrate even the tiniest of accomplishments, because I've had them too. One does not follow logically to the other."

I apologize. As another poster commented, it's very hard to get tone in a written message. Again, just my opinion. I don't see anything positive about your remarks, and it seems to me a very slippery slope. If you're willing to criticize other posters about their grammar, where do you stop? The socially acceptable answer is that you won't say something that "crosses the line".

Without the benefit of knowing you as the other poster did, I still stand by my original opinion.

"The Cafe is all about general topics. That is what this is. :) My suggestion to you would be to assume the best... not the worst. It's advice that I follow, and it has served me well! "

Thank you.

"The beauty of Sparkpeople is that people of all shapes and sizes, temperaments and compositions, can come together and talk. I knew that people would take offense to some of these statements, no matter how inoffensively I framed them. Fortunately, I've got thick skin, and can handle it. ;)"

I couldn't agree more with your evaluation of SparkPeople. And, I'm not offended, though I suspect others might be. I know that you post frequently, and in fact, I have enjoyed reading your comments many times. However, if I, who understands grammar and writes well, am wary of posting in a topic where I see your comments, what's a person whose skills are out of practice going to feel? I'm concerned because what you have said may stop someone who really needs help from reaching out. Not everyone is brave. But every person on this site joined for a reason.

I'm highly motivated to get my life in order, including my health. SparkPeople has been an incredibly useful tool to me, and based on what I've read from other posters, it has for them, too. I felt motivated to speak up about a topic that seemed hurtful to the overall community. It's just my opinion. You know what people say about those...

I'm glad you've had a good day. Thanks for reading.


Edited by: SINGERA9 at: 6/13/2013 (17:59)
KJFITNESSDUDE Posts: 15,787
6/13/13 5:30 P

peeve? no, bad grammar can KILL!!!!

Example #1
"Let's eat, Grandpa."

Example #2
"Let's eat Grandpa"
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DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/13/13 5:22 P

SINGERA9, I'll respond point-by-point here, just because I enjoy doing so and it makes things easier for me to parse. :

"I humbly suggest that if you don't want to read something with the words all smashed together, with no capitalization, punctuation or correct spelling, then don't. People don't need or want a perfect stranger pointing out their errors and making unkind statements about their intelligence. "

I haven't pointed out anyone's errors... I'm simply making general statements about things I've noticed. Whether or not people need or want others to make judgments, they do! It's simply human nature. I often *don't* read poorly punctuated walls of text. And it makes me sad when I have to, because often the people in question have something of value to say, but because they didn't take the time to communicate effectively, their contribution is lost on me.

The content of the thread is in the title; one shouldn't be surprised that I list pet peeves. A pet peeve is defined as:

"A pet peeve is a minor annoyance that an individual identifies as particularly annoying to them, to a greater degree than others may find it. A key aspect of a pet peeve is that it may well seem acceptable to others."

"Let me ask you this. What does your rant solve? You say in your post that you're "twitchy". Does that mean that you're having a bad day, and those of in SparkLand get to enjoy your negative mood? What content in your rant is going to SPARK anyone to be motivated to get healthy? What did you write in your rant that was in any way welcoming to any newbies out there? What did you post that gave anyone new ideas or insight or hope?"

Not everything here has to be motivating, or welcoming to newbies. ;) My rant was just like any other thread here in the cafe... random, off topic, and something on my mind. Sometimes, my goal isn't to inspire or motivate, but simply to converse! And this post has done exactly what I intended to it. I'm not in a bad mood at all... by "twitchy" I meant just that. I'm feeling restless and want to talk!

At the end of the day, I don't *care* if others pay attention to my post. I honestly don't! If they want to continue using quotes as emphasis, they're welcome to. But why am I not allowed to talk about it, if others here are allowed to talk about not wanting kids, or being laid off? That isn't motivational or welcoming, either. It's just a conversation. Like this. :) The cafe is all about unique conversations that aren't related to nutrition, exercise, or the like. It's about fun. I find this discussion fun. Others do, too, as evidenced by their responses. If you don't... well, don't read it. :)

"Normally, I would take my own advice and just move on, but I feel that your message is negative, judgmental and exclusive, and needs to be addressed. What you have written goes against the grain of SparkPeople, which is supposed to be positive, welcoming and inclusive. If you're saying all these harsh things about how people write, what's next? Nasty remarks about people's very personal struggle to finally conquer their weight issues? Snarky comments about what seems to you a minor victory?"

Honestly now, that was uncalled for. I haven't been negative at all! I'm simply talking about an unrelated peeve, as many people here often do. Not everything here has to be about weight loss, or even positive. And certainly not "welcoming". I would NEVER say anything about someone's "minor victory" because as those here who know me know, I celebrate even the tiniest of accomplishments, because I've had them too. One does not follow logically to the other.

The Cafe is all about general topics. That is what this is. :) My suggestion to you would be to assume the best... not the worst. It's advice that I follow, and it has served me well!

The beauty of Sparkpeople is that people of all shapes and sizes, temperaments and compositions, can come together and talk. I knew that people would take offense to some of these statements, no matter how inoffensively I framed them. Fortunately, I've got thick skin, and can handle it. ;)

Have no fear though, my day has been spectacular today... just busy and restless!

Edited by: DRAGONCHILDE at: 6/13/2013 (17:28)
DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/13/13 5:15 P

ICEDEMETER, here I use asterisks for emphasis, like *this*, or sparingly used caps (as I did in the original post!) You have to be careful with caps though, because people often interpret that more aggressively than the asterisks.

OBIESMOM2 SparkPoints: (212,705)
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6/13/13 5:04 P

it's all in how you read it. When you can't hear a tone, you tend to apply one.

I don't take the OP as angry or unwelcoming. Partly because I totally understand. It's one of those things that aggravates me, too. Partly because I've read enough of Heather's posts to have a decent idea of her...well, personality (for lack of a better term). She also said it was just a rant. To me that means, "I gotta get this off my chest!"
And I also had the extreme pleasure of meeting Heather in person a while back. Even before that, I wouldn't have seen her as an angry red head. (Had I thought that I wouldn't have asked Heather if she wanted to meet!)

the text speak stuff does bug me, yet I'm guilty of using 'thru' a lot. Oh, and 'alot' bugs me too. It's either two words (a lot) or a different meaning (allot).

I'm also guilty of using message board abbreviations (DH, KWIM, LOL, IMHO, etc) which probably annoys folks.




Edited by: OBIESMOM2 at: 6/13/2013 (17:25)
ASHLEYGILLE SparkPoints: (12,744)
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6/13/13 4:45 P

I second what SingerA9 had to say. While it is good to share opinions and thoughts here, SP is supposed to be fun and focused on health. I have a masters degree, but could care less about grammar when reading threads, blogs, etc. SP is supposed to be supportive and accepting... Why so angry and negative? Hmm... Something to think about!

CAMEOSUN SparkPoints: (86,609)
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6/13/13 4:40 P

Yep. Ran this thread about a year ago. The biggest on here is (as said by others):

Lose - Did you lose your keys?

Loose - My pants are finally loose.

Too many times you see (on SP)..."I want to loose weight." Answer: "Well, then just let it go and it will be loose." emoticon

~OR~

Advice - Do you have any good advice to pass on.

Advise - Can you advise me on where to invest?


This is a positive, "educational" thread. The 'Cafe' is for all / any topics.

Edited by: CAMEOSUN at: 6/13/2013 (18:28)
DMJAKES Posts: 1,634
6/13/13 4:12 P

LOL @ Icedemeter and the loose vs lose usage.....now I'm going to picture that every time I see it!

As a proofreader in a former life, I sometimes spend more time analyzing grammar, usage and style than I do reading for content---I know, that's bad. I try not to, but I just can't help myself.

SINGERA9 SparkPoints: (4,307)
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6/13/13 4:10 P

I humbly suggest that if you don't want to read something with the words all smashed together, with no capitalization, punctuation or correct spelling, then don't. People don't need or want a perfect stranger pointing out their errors and making unkind statements about their intelligence.

Let me ask you this. What does your rant solve? You say in your post that you're "twitchy". Does that mean that you're having a bad day, and those of in SparkLand get to enjoy your negative mood? What content in your rant is going to SPARK anyone to be motivated to get healthy? What did you write in your rant that was in any way welcoming to any newbies out there? What did you post that gave anyone new ideas or insight or hope?

Normally, I would take my own advice and just move on, but I feel that your message is negative, judgmental and exclusive, and needs to be addressed. What you have written goes against the grain of SparkPeople, which is supposed to be positive, welcoming and inclusive. If you're saying all these harsh things about how people write, what's next? Nasty remarks about people's very personal struggle to finally conquer their weight issues? Snarky comments about what seems to you a minor victory?

I do hope that if you're having a bad day, it gets better.

Fellow grammar geek with sum skoolin' 2 prove it

ASHLEYGILLE SparkPoints: (12,744)
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6/13/13 4:06 P

Wow...

SMANISMELL SparkPoints: (76,799)
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6/13/13 3:39 P

What really gets to me are those who use texting spelling to write a message. For instance ur instead of your. Also, I do not know what all those texting acronyms mean and I wish that people would not use them!

LOVE4KITTIES Posts: 4,689
6/13/13 3:38 P

I share your pet peeves.

I completely understand that everyone makes mistakes on occasion. I completely understand that some people have learning disabilities. But, when I see someone make the sort of mistakes you listed, I start wondering as to the reason. I wonder if it is due to lack of effort, lack of education, lack of effort to be educated, a learning disorder or something else. It really does leave a bad impression and I wouldn't hire someone who made those sort of mistakes on a resume (and I would cease to employ someone who made them on a consistent basis and who wasn't making a real effort to improve) unless I knew that this was a person who had a learning disorder. I would have absolutely no problem overlooking grammatical errors due to a learning disorder.

OBIESMOM2 SparkPoints: (212,705)
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6/13/13 3:38 P

reminds me of a tee shirt:

let's eat grandpa
let's eat, grandpa
PUNCTUATION SAVES LIVES!!!

BUNNYKICKS Posts: 2,433
6/13/13 3:36 P

I have exceptional grammar - I'm the go-to writer/proofreader/editor at home and at work.

But I let my standards relax a little when communicating in a casual online forum. i have a tendency not to bother with capitalization. I may use acronyms, lol. I may spell phonetically in a way to create a certain tone or accent, ya know what i'm sayin'? And I might use punctuation or symbol to *emphasize* on a board that doesn't offer us the ability to write in *bold* or ~italics~ and I'll toss in a few lame emoticons just to cheer the place up :P ;) ^_^

That said, I do go wild when I see misused homonyms. But I don't comment on them. People come from a variety of backgrounds; some are not native English speakers (and wow I'd hate to have *my* grammar critiqued if I were trying to participate on a Spanish board, yowza!), some have more or less formal education/levels of literacy/knack for grammar etc. So long as I can understand the message being conveyed, I'm not going to comment and I'm not going to judge. People are not replacing "your" with "you're" because they are purposely trying to be annoying or lazy or 1337 ("leet" lol), they are doing the best they can to write the best they can, and likely don't realize their error.

If I were writing a blog or creating a website or presenting a report or preparing a business letter or authoring a novel (and I wanted to be taken seriously doing any of these things) I would pay much attention to grammar and presentation (or hire an editor to help me if it wasn't my forte), and would recommend anyone else embarking on a "professional" communications piece do the same. But, for a place like SP forums, i give a pass (oops there's that missing capital again, lol, whaddya know, YMMV, *The End* /speech :D

JEFFGIRL Posts: 10,587
6/13/13 3:35 P

Dragonchilde, I don't get why your post is so long. Am I missing something?

JEFFGIRL Posts: 10,587
6/13/13 3:33 P

I don't know if this a grammatical faux paux but someone I know when speaking says "you know what I mean" repeatedly. Otherwise a lovely person.

ICEDEMETER Posts: 1,332
6/13/13 3:29 P

emoticon

A truly lovely rant - I enjoyed it immensely!

One you missed is using "loose" for "lose". Whenever I see someone saying that they are going to "loose" weight, I get a mental image of them opening a cage full of fat and wondering why it doesn't fly off... "Come on, I've set you loose. Be free, darn it..."

A question for you, though: on a site like this where you don't have italics or underscore or bold to use for emphasis, just what do you use? I find that intonation is so important in communications, and a lack of ability to indicate emphasis makes it difficult to put this across in writing. Even though it is grammatically terrible, I find using quotation marks for emphasis is at least an attempt at adding intonation.

GYMMAN59 SparkPoints: (75,623)
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6/13/13 3:20 P

For me , a non- issue, to each his own

DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (60,906)
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6/13/13 2:59 P

I'm twitchy today, so I'm about to present my throat to be torn out by the masses. :)

I'm a grammar geek; I am touchy about it online, and firmly believe that in order to communicate effectively, proper grammar is important. I don't mean MLA perfect or anything, but at the very least, you need to get your homonyms right, and stop abusing apostrophes and quotations marks. Just because you're not being graded doesn't mean that it's not worth actually taking the time to practice correct grammar. Now, when it does count, I don't have to think about making errors most of the time, because I ALWAYS practice. It's second-nature!

Apostrophes DO NOT denote plurals. Just don't.

"This" is not a way to emphasis something. When you see this in a sentence, you usually mean that whatever the word is in quotes doesn't mean what it says it does.

www.dailywritingtips.com/punctuation-error
s-quotation-marks-for-emphasis/


This site "emphasizes" why this is so grievously incorrect, and makes me giggle every time I read it:

www.unnecessaryquotes.com/

AS for homonyms, PLEASE please please... your and you're are not interchangeable. "Your invited" always makes me want to say "My what is invited?"

Your = possessive, belonging to you.
You're = contraction of YOU ARE.

There = a location. "It's over there!"
Their = possessive, belonging to them.
they're = contraction of THEY ARE.

Using correct caps (not using all caps, which is internet shouting, or no caps at all, which drives me nuts) makes your text easier to parse. When you read an uncapitalized, poorly punctuated wall of text on a computer screen, it's nearly impossible to get through without stopping and rubbing your eyes. Human eyes need differentiation!

Check out these two stories, and tell me which is easier to read:

==============

once upon a time, there was a queen. queen cynthia lived in her castle in a faraway land called shangutopia. shangutopia was located in lufecaep valley near a large river which was called the hula hula river. this river provided the people with fresh water, lots of fish, and large amounts of vegetables. one day, as the people celebrated an annual festival of hope, a rainstorm came and flooded the river. hula hula overflowed and many homes were destroyed. as a result, many of the citizens of shangutopia died from the cold weather and lack of food. when the water receded, the queen called for her royal horses so she could take a look at the damage. she began in the north and inspected her entire country. she asked, “why are the people hungry?” her royal advisor answered, “they don’t have any food.” the queen was upset and confused because she had always lived in her secure castle. she responded, “then just give them food.” queen cynthia asked, “why are the people so thirsty?” her royal advisor again responded, “because there is no clean water to drink.” the queen ignorantly snapped back, “well! then give them water!” while she was traveling, another great storm developed, and a tornado destroyed her castle. when the queen returned to her home, she queried the crying servants, “what happened?” they explained that nothing remained; everything was in complete ruins. queen cynthia looked perplexed. she commanded, “well! then make me some dinner. i'm so hungry." the servants said, "your highness, there is no food." the queen yelled, "then get some food. i have been traveling for days. it takes a lot of energy to go around and understand how the citizens are doing. they are so lucky to have such an understanding queen."

==============

Once upon a time, there was a queen. Queen Cynthia lived in her castle in a faraway land called Shangutopia. Shangutopia was located in Lufecaep Valley near a large river which was called the Hula Hula River. This river provided the people with fresh water, lots of fish, and large amounts of vegetables.

One day, as the people celebrated an annual festival of hope, a rainstorm came and flooded the river. Hula Hula overflowed and many homes were destroyed. As a result, many of the citizens of Shangutopia died from the cold weather and lack of food. When the water receded, the queen called for her royal horses so she could take a look at the damage. She began in the North and inspected her entire country. She asked, “Why are the people hungry?” Her royal advisor answered, “They don’t have any food.” The queen was upset and confused because she had always lived in her secure castle. She responded, “Then just give them food.”

Queen Cynthia asked, “Why are the people so thirsty?” Her royal advisor again responded, “Because there is no clean water to drink.” The queen ignorantly snapped back, "Well! Then give them water!”

While she was traveling, another great storm developed, and a tornado destroyed her castle. When the queen returned to her home, she queried the crying servants, “What happened?” They explained that nothing remained; everything was in complete ruins.

Queen Cynthia looked perplexed. She commanded, “Well! Then make me some dinner. I'm so hungry." The servants said, "Your Highness, there is no food." The queen yelled, "Then get some food. I have been traveling for days. It takes a lot of energy to go around and understand how the citizens are doing. They are so lucky to have such an understanding queen."

==============

This is literally second grade stuff, and not knowing them, even if you are the smartest person in the world, with the greatest stuff to say, is going to reduce people's opinion of what you have to say. It shows you don't care enough to take the time to communicate effectively.

Someone always gets all butthurt and says "well, I don't care what other people think" but that's irrelevant; it still affects how they react to you. If you want to communicate what you mean, you have to use the right words to do so! If you want people to take the time to read and respond to what you have to say, you have to take the time and have respect enough to make yourself understood.

That doesn't mean mistakes never happen... anyone who knows me knows that even I, the great and perfect Heather, make mistakes (ssshhhh, don't tell anyone!) But when someone consistently makes errors, it develops a poor picture over time.

Edited by: DRAGONCHILDE at: 6/13/2013 (15:01)
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