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Devil in the Milk



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HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/13/13 3:17 P

I'll make it as close to that as I can, LOL. I won't know how the cows test until afterwards and neither will the owner. I will find someone else to read my heart rate monitor and try to keep all the other factors that could affect my heart rate the same.
Birgit



WOUBBIE
SparkPoints: (68,960)
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Posts: 5,117
3/13/13 3:09 P

Interesting. You're an n=1 double-blind study? emoticon



HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/13/13 1:34 P

I have been experimenting with this for over a week now. All dairy I eat that I know to be A2 I can tolerate without problems. All dairy that I know to contain at least some A1 (grocery store) is increasing my pulse by 15-20 beats.
I will do further testing with the milk of a local jersey dairy this week. Their cows have not been tested yet. I will sample milk from 3 different cows and see how my body reacts over several days. After that the cows will be tested for the A1/A2 genes. It will be interesting to see if there is a correlation and if my body can indeed tell the difference. Right now I think so. If this is indeed the case then I will do everything possible to spread the word to encourage research in this area, starting with individuals experimenting with how they tolerate A2 vs. A1 milk. spark blog for anyone who is interested. emoticon

In the meantime here is a link to Sean Croxton from underground wellness exploring the issue:

undergroundwellness.com/devil-in-the-milk-
part-1/


Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 3/13/2013 (13:35)


WOUBBIE
SparkPoints: (68,960)
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Posts: 5,117
3/11/13 1:52 P

One thing folks might also want to consider: the best Irish and French butters and cheeses come from predominantly A2 herds. Guernseys, in particular, have the highest percentage of A2 milk of all breeds. Could be just a coincidence?



HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/11/13 12:44 P

I found the webpage of UC Davis that offers genetic testing for the A1 and A2 variants. At the bottom of this page there is a list of references that give much more information for anyone who would like to learn more. In particular the first article explains some of the known facts and also what is not known yet.
The fact that a well-respected vet school in the US is offering testing makes me think that the hypothesis about A1 and A2 milk is given serious consideration and that more research is in the works.

www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/A2Genotyping.
php


My personal experience has shown me that my body can easily detect A1 from A2 and only responds negatively to A1.

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 3/11/2013 (12:46)


HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/10/13 8:05 P

Becky,
the book "Devil in the Milk" has a fairly extensive Bibliography of research papers on the issue. I will take a closer look and be happy to link some of the ones here that are accessible to the general public.
In addition I want to state that I am not saying that everything in this book (or any other book on nutrition) should be considered proven or applicable to every person.
My intent was not to bring about recommendations for the general public but primarily to inform about the existence of A1 and A2 milk, encourage discussion of the topic of consuming A1 vs. A2 dairy, to share my personal experience in the hope that others will benefit and to hear about personal experiences that relate to this.
It is not easy to deal with the side effects of dairy sensitivity and I was hoping to share some information that might make it easier for a lot of people to eat a healthy diet while possibly not having to give up dairy entirely.
Please let me know if there is anything further you would like me to do or change about what is covered in this thread so far. emoticon

Birgit




WOUBBIE
SparkPoints: (68,960)
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3/10/13 8:05 P

Sorry, here's the PubMed link to the abstract I posted below:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16403684

Here, also, is a "Lay Summary" about the issues, published by New Zealand government on their website:

www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibrary/beta-casei
n-A1-A2-in-milk.htm


Obviously, the research into this subject is still in its infancy, so, no, there are no black and white pronouncements here. But I would think that informed consumers should, at the very least be INTERESTED in learning more about the subject.

Some excerpts from the summary:

"Changing dairy herds to more A2 producing cows may significantly improve public health, if the A1/A2 hypothesis is proved correct, and it is highly unlikely to do harm."

This is NOT an endorsement, just a simple statement of the obvious. The key here is "highly unlikely to do harm"; so even if, over time, it does not develop that A2 milk has substantial public health benefits, it is, at least, probably harmless.

"As a matter of individual choice, people may wish to reduce or remove A1 β-casein from their diet (or their children's diet) as a precautionary measure. This may be particularly relevant for those individuals who have or are at risk of the diseases mentioned (type 1 diabetes, coronary heart disease, autism and schizophrenia). However, they should do so knowing that there is substantial uncertainty about the benefits of such an approach."

So what are they saying here? Simple. They're not endorsing A2 over A1, but, again, see no harm in people removing A1 milk from their diet.

Even this 2004 report:

www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibrary/industry/B
eta_Casein-Report_Reviews.pdf


concludes with “The hypothesis that a high intake of milk containing A1 β-casein promotes conditions as heterogeneous as DM-1 [type 1 diabetes], IHD [Ischaemic heart disease], schizophrenia and autism is intriguing and potentially important. There is some very suggestive evidence from ecological studies for DM-1 and IHD, and there is certainly a possibility that the A1/A2 composition of milk is a factor in the etiology of these conditions. However, this hypothesis has yet to be backed by good human trials. The evidence in relation to autism comes mainly from poorly controlled clinical trials of gluten-free, casein-free diets where some improvement is noted in the autism characteristics and behaviours. The evidence in relation to schizophrenia is very minimal.”

Conclusion? Yes, solid testing needs to occur to confirm whether A2 milk has real health benefits. That could take decades, which I don't have, and neither does my son. Since there is no harm in trying it, then why not? If the milk costs a few cents more then so be it.



DIETITIANBECKY
Posts: 26,529
3/10/13 3:14 P

A reminder of our Sparkpeople Guidelines:

This Sparkpeople site uses scientific evidence for its food, nutrition and weight loss recommendations. And we ask that our members use evidence as well. Evidence comes from well designed, peer-reviewed, published research studies. When enough studies are showing the same conclusions---that is when there is enough evidence to bring about recommendations for the general public.

The book in reference is not based on research evidence. I do respect your right as an adult to select the foods to eat as you feel appropriate. However, we at Sparkpeople do not allow information to be shared (or encouraged) that is not based on scientific research. It could be dangerous to our 15 million members. Promoting the contents of this book, is an example of the type of information that is not based on research.

Feel free to link to an acutal published (in a medical journal), peer-reviewed research study. Such studies can be found at :


www.pubmed.gov

Thank you
SP Registered Dietitian Becky



DRAGONCHILDE
SparkPoints: (56,424)
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Posts: 9,587
3/10/13 2:50 P

Using all caps on the internet is in fact the equivalent of shouting. It's generally going to be read aggressively. When I want to emphasize something without yelling, here's what I do.


"You would not *believe* what I just read!"

The asterisks are actually an editing tool to indicate bold in a manuscript. It gets the point across without yelling!

We can't read tone here, so no matter what you're doing in real life (giggling or crying) we can only go by the words you write here, and there was nothing in what I read that indicated amusement.



HISTORYRUNNER
SparkPoints: (2,821)
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Posts: 400
3/10/13 2:07 P

Ailebellia,
You may have been giggling, but I can read CAPS too and it seems you were yelling as well. It seems to me that you're focusing on one point you feel emotional about and not looking at the bigger picture Houndlover raised. It looks like some studies are suggesting that drinking A2 milk might contribute toward improving a number of conditions, including autism, which would, I think, make you glad that there might be some dietary ways to alleviate (not necessarily cure) this problem.



HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/10/13 2:05 P

Ailebbelia,
You must have missed the word "possibly" in there. emoticon

I am not sure what you are so angry about that you launch attacks on the message boards, but since you don't know me nor do you know what background I have, I will assume that you have your own issues and that the message boards are just a convenient place for you to vent. In any case, I'm looking forward to hearing experiences from others who have been experimenting with different types of dairy, since anecdotal evidence from real people who are motivated to improve their own health is very valuable to me and to others.
I can also highly recommend the book "Devil in the Milk" as a starting point for research.

Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 3/10/2013 (14:06)


AILEBBELIA
SparkPoints: (13,410)
Fitness Minutes: (4,362)
Posts: 3,171
3/10/13 1:54 P

This message board doesn't allow us to highlight or bold so caps lock is interpreted as shouting.

I was actually giggling when I wrote that.


I work with kids with autism, aspergers, and adhd (on and off meds)... so to me, it's totally not cool when someone with no background suggests that parents try something without reading credible research or talking to their doctors.



However, she didn't just put forward "some ..potential linkages." She said dairy causes autism..



HISTORYRUNNER
SparkPoints: (2,821)
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Posts: 400
3/10/13 1:47 P

It seems some people here are getting pretty angry and emotional. I don't believe this is helpful. Houndlover has done us all a favor by introducing a topic of potentially large implications for diet and nutrition, which I believe is what everyone on SP is interested in improving. She never claimed that she has all the answers, but put forward some challenging potential linkages between A1 milk and its effects in contributing toward serious health issues. The A1 & A2 milk issue is probably a topic which merits further thoughtful study, discussion, and evaluation by scientists and the informed public (that's us) alike. Personally, I choose to seek out A2 milk in the belief that it can't hurt and may well help. Given all the dietary and environmental issues we have to collectively battle through to achieve health and fitness, I am appreciative of Houndlover having put this out there for us. While A2 milk is not going to be the "magic bullet" that fixes everything, is is possibly, even probably, one more factor that will tip the cumulative balance positively.

Could we all take a deep breath and actually talk with each other instead of shouting? emoticon



REDSHOES2011
SparkPoints: (35,936)
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Posts: 7,159
3/10/13 1:42 P

I have never had to calm my ADHD autism kids down from drinking milk lol.. If people have issues with milk products then it is worth getting tested.. I shy away from sites that confuse the general public and put terror into peoples minds avoiding products if used in healthy amounts are fine..

Edited by: REDSHOES2011 at: 3/10/2013 (13:42)


AILEBBELIA
SparkPoints: (13,410)
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Posts: 3,171
3/10/13 1:15 P

"There is one thing that everyone can do: do a N=1 experiment to see how different types of dairy affect them."



Let me get this straight.....You are actually suggesting that people with schizophrenia and parents with children with AUTISM do a N=1.



From the autismspeaks.org website:


"The researchers expressed additional concern about alternative diets. Many parents report that their children’s autism symptoms and related medical issues improve when they remove casein (milk protein) and gluten (wheat protein) from their diets. However, casein/gluten-free diets can increase the challenge of ensuring adequate nutrition."


From your post below:


"While I don't know for certain what diseases A1 milk will cause I do know that it causes very significant inflammation in my body and many diseases, including heart disease, diabetes and brain abonormalities are caused or affected by inflammation."



That's right!

You DON'T KNOW---so stop spamming this message board with Dr. Quack Mercola's possible and maybe statements.



EDIT:

I accidently hit the POST MESSAGE button after giggling because you said that
a1 caused you to have brain abnormalities.

Edited by: AILEBBELIA at: 3/10/2013 (13:20)


HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/10/13 12:56 P

There are, without doubt, many opinions on the A1, A2 controversy. Some of them are based on interpretation of science, others are based on interests in the dairy industry which would have to invest a lot of money to change to all A2 herds. It is true that epidemiological studies are of limited usefulness to come to final conclusions on the subject but they are enough to form a hypothesis. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence around as well.
There is one thing that everyone can do: do a N=1 experiment to see how different types of dairy affect them.
I'm sitting here having a bowl of yogurt that I know to be A2, from goat milk.
Goats are known to be all A2. My pulse stayed in the normal range, around 78-82 while sitting and eating. I don't feel bloated 2 hours later.
When I consume milk that is likely to mostly from A1 cows, Holsteins, my pulse goes up to about 95-100 for the same activity.
We are getting our milk from a local dairy producer who has Jersey cows that have not been tested yet (hopefully will be soon).
Until recently I assumed them to be all A2 which is what the owner also believed. I found that one week I had no pulse response to the milk we got, the next week my pulse went up. It turned out the milk was from a different cow. (This small dair keeps milk from different cows separate). I will know for certain when the test results for these cows are known.
In the meantime I know that I can consume straight goat dairy. The only thing to watch out for is that some cheese producers label cheese as goat cheese and if you look closely at the fine print you can see that they may mix in cow milk. This happened to me the other day and my body could tell.
By the way, I know I am not lactose intolerant because the milk I drink is raw, making the lactose issue irrelevant (raw milk has lactase in it).
I suggest that people who think they have negative symptoms with milk check out how their body responds to A2 milk.
While I don't know for certain what diseases A1 milk will cause I do know that it causes very significant inflammation in my body and many diseases, including heart disease, diabetes and brain abonormalities are caused or affected by inflammation.
If I were a dairy producer I would immediately switch to breeding cows only to A2 bulls or risk losing my business in the long run. As people will learn more about this they will want more answers.

Birgit

Edited by: HOUNDLOVER1 at: 3/10/2013 (12:59)


AILEBBELIA
SparkPoints: (13,410)
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Posts: 3,171
3/10/13 11:03 A

OP:


eating dairy does not cause autism.....


from your blog:



"......or whether eating dairy CAUSES many health problems, possibly including type 1 diabetes, heart disease, autism and more"


From the abstract:

"Furthermore, consumption of milk with the A2 variant may be associated with less severe symptoms of autism and schizophrenia."




Please get the wording right....





Edited by: AILEBBELIA at: 3/10/2013 (11:52)


WOUBBIE
SparkPoints: (68,960)
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Posts: 5,117
3/10/13 9:52 A

Health implications of milk containing beta-casein with the A2 genetic variant.
Bell SJ, Grochoski GT, Clarke AJ.
Source
Research and Development, Ideasphere, Inc., 56 Amherst Road, Belmont, MA, 02478, USA. SBell@ISIBrands.com
Abstract
Milk from dairy cows has long provided a high quality source of protein and selected micronutrients such as calcium to most populations. Recently, a relationship between disease risk and consumption of a specific bovine ss-casein fraction either A1 or A2 genetic variants has been identified. Populations, which consume milk containing high levels of ss-casein A2 variant, have a lower incidence of cardiovascular disease and type 1 diabetes. Furthermore, consumption of milk with the A2 variant may be associated with less severe symptoms of autism and schizophrenia. The mechanism of action focuses on ss-casein A1 and related forms preferentially that are able to produce a bioactive opioid peptide, ss-casomorphin-7 (ss-CM-7) during digestion. Infants may absorb ss-CM-7 due to an immature gastrointestinal tract. Adults, on the other hand, appear to reap the biological activity locally on the intestinal brush boarder. ss-CM-7 can potentially affect numerous opioid receptors in the nervous, endocrine, and immune systems. Whether there is a definite health benefit to milk containing the A2 genetic variant is unknown and requires further investigation.



SPKRAUSE
Posts: 543
3/10/13 9:15 A

The A1 & A2 stuff is pseudoscientific nonsense peddled by quacks like Dr. Mercola and the Weston Price Foundation.

Yes, there are these two types of beta-casein. But there is no compelling evidence linking the 'A1' form to type 1 diabetes, heart disease, autism, or schizophrenia. And the whole 'A2 milk' thing, especially in Australia, is more about taking advantage for marketing and money reasons.

See, for example:
[1] www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v59/n5/abs/160
2104a.html
: "This review concludes, however, that there is no convincing or even probable evidence that the A1 beta-casein of cow milk has any adverse effect in humans."

[2] scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/06/04/merc
ola-and-raw-milk-faddism-invade-huff/<
/a>



SUSANBEAMON
Posts: 2,954
3/10/13 1:47 A

our intolerence to milk is genetic. you can either digest the sugars in milk or you can't. cows are not the only animals that produce milk. there are goats, horses, sheep. over the generations, humans have done better with them than with cows.



SLIMMERKIWI
SparkPoints: (125,059)
Fitness Minutes: (32,590)
Posts: 21,250
3/10/13 1:45 A

NZ was at the forefront of these studies. There have been studies done in NZ since (which is one of the world's leading milk producers) and from what I recall a year or so ago, there are some indications that what was touted as being the ultimate, may not be as wonderful as originally thought, but that is not to say that it OR the other isn't a good source of nutrients.

Below is a link to Food Standards Australia New Zealand
www.foodstandards.gov.au/scienceandeducati
on/factsheets/a1anda2milkfebruary24196
.cfm


I have Dairy Food Intolerance, which for me and probably most other "Dairy Food Intolerant people" is more "MILK" intolerance - because I can consume a fair bit of cheese and yoghurt without problems. The only way I was diagnosed is because I had a lengthy trial. It involved writing down when I consumed it and the reactions - i.e. waist measurements, bloating, gas and abdo pain, and when I did NOT consume it. I would start with the very first cup of tea in the a.m. - nothing else. I would measure immediately prior to drinking it, and about 1/4 hr after. There would be a HUGE difference in my waist measurement.

Kris

Edited by: SLIMMERKIWI at: 3/10/2013 (05:43)


HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/9/13 11:27 P

Woubbie,
just so nobody gets confused, the A2 is what hopefully everyone will breed exclusively soon. emoticon

Birgit



WOUBBIE
SparkPoints: (68,960)
Fitness Minutes: (17,212)
Posts: 5,117
3/9/13 11:06 P

I've been reading a bit about this as well, and, for all the people who have dairy intolerances this could be a wonderful help!

And it seems that it's really economically very attractive for dairy people to try to breed exclusively A2 animals. Considering how many people are currently avoiding dairy products, anything that would enable them to eat cheese and milk again would be really welcome. Thanks for bringing this to light, it's excellent info!

EDIT: Sorry! It was getting late when I posted this, and I referenced the wrong type in my comment above. Thanks for the correction, HOUNDLOVER!

Edited by: WOUBBIE at: 3/10/2013 (09:43)


HOUNDLOVER1
Posts: 8,082
3/9/13 1:10 P

I am reading this book currently after finding out that I seem to be sensitive to dairy, but only one type.
www.amazon.com/Devil-Milk-Illness-Health-P
olitics/dp/1603581022


I also want to link two of my recent blogs on the issue as I believe that the American public (and Europe) need to be educated about this issue.

www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_journal_
individual.asp?blog_id=5271852


www.sparkpeople.com/mypage_public_journal_
individual.asp?blog_id=5279599


I would love to hear about experiences people have made with A1 and A2 milk either here or feel free to comment on my sparkpage or send me a spark mail. emoticon

Birgit



 
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