Fitness Minutes: (0)
1 8/17/13 6:18 P
I use creatine. Show me a website or study telling me its bad for my liver and I'll show you two more showing that its not.
In any case I use it. I work out several times a week and drink lots of water. Forget everything youve heard about creatine boosting ATP action. What it really does is cause you to retain water in your muscles. It cushions the muscle fibers and makes post workout recovery much more bearable. Its the difference between being sore and not being sore. I must admit that I sweat like a pig when I take creatine and work out because I have to water in my system to sweat out.
If it was not your intention to mislead, I apologize. Reading your original post, and the paragraph that part came from, I felt that the additional parts regarding "underlying liver disease" means that use by otherwise healthy individuals was, as far as the research currently shows, safe. I found it especially odd to use such a paragraph to dispute Bill's citation backed claims, as the paragraph as a whole does not go nearly as far.
I did not include the part about little testing for two reasons. 1. You had already stated it. I did not believe it needed to be restated, 2. it was in a different paragraph than the kidney disease parts.
You keep stating that there is clinical evidence that supports the theory that the price a person pays [for using Creatine] is real and potentially damaging. But the clinical citations which have been repeatedly provided dispute your claim, and your citations have been generalized statements from websites not citing clinical studies. Please support your claims further
Finally, as to your last two paragraphs, I will refer you to Bill's citation regarding ad hominem attacks.
"I got a chance to go to the place in the hospital where they treat the people whose livers are really in trouble and it made me want to pay more attention to maintaining a healthy liver."
So, other than not becoming an alcoholic, and not getting fat and eating poorly so as to avoid metabolic syndrome and the resulting fatty liver disease, and not taking creatine (in your opinion).... how does one go about maintaining a healthy liver?
I'm not sure what made my paraphrasing misleading but leaving out the kidney disease part of the quote certainly has no connection to the liver issue. 'Liver function may be altered' and the quote you left out about little testing having been done seemed meaningful to me. Maybe you see the 'underlying liver disease' part as somehow meaning that altered liver function is okay for the rest of us. I don't see it that way. I didn't intend to mislead.
Creatine is a chemical compound that almost assuredly alters liver function in an effort to allow a person to lift more or workout harder than the body might be inclined to do. The combination of increased cellular muscular damage and increased creatine load in the body taxes the liver. If that is okay with someone it's no crime to use it. Still, it is a mistake to think that there is no price to pay for using chemicals to trick the body especially when there is both anecdotal and clinical evidence to support the theory that the price a person pays is real and potentially damaging to something as vital as a person's liver.
So, I suppose if a person is inclined to use performance enhancing chemicals, he's going to find comfort in Dawley rats and internet links and person like me who is skeptical and less comfortable with it will find reassurance in anecdotes and different internet links.
If you're not sure you could always just work a little harder with the weights because you want to.
PRC- The part that Bill quoted came directly from my examine.org link. It was not uncited and directly addresses the concerns being raised.
The Mayo Clinic site which you point to, in the paragraph I believe you are referring to states in full: "There is less concern today than there used to be about possible kidney damage from creatine, although there are reports of kidney damage, such as interstitial nephritis. Patients with kidney disease should avoid use of this supplement. Similarly, liver function may be altered, and caution is advised in those with underlying liver disease."
So, while I will take the advice you received from your doc regarding liver health under advisement, I would ask you to refrain from posting incomplete and misleading quotations with the goal of reinforcing your point.
Bill- thanks for the pubmed link, that is helpful as well.
Gracefullife- It took a while to get to the classic "my liver, my liver" joke, but it was totally worth it.
I don't have any 'heavy' uncited source material on rats to cut and paste for you but I do have a doctor at the Cleveland Clinic who indicated that Creatine and heavy workouts (muscle repair) can overtax the liver. He also said that it is expensive and doesn't really help much. My guess is that if a person checks with his/her doctor (as brewmasterbill suggests we should) it is unlikely the doctor is going to say, "A supplement that is relatively untested that messes with body chemistry so you can work harder when you lift weights - sounds like a good idea!"
A quick google search also leads to a quote from the Mayo Clinic website that indicates that, "There is limited systematic study of the safety, pharmacology, or toxicology of creatine." but that liver function may be altered.
Still, if you really want to take creatine monohydrate, go for it and if your liver enzymes shoot way up -as they frequently do - just tell your doctor about the Dawley rats and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis that Brewmasterbill told you about and he will think you're really smart.
Fitness Minutes: (12,713)
4,110 7/17/13 9:25 A
Right, while I don't recommend taking anything without consulting a doctor first, particularly if you have health issues, I'm going to weigh this:
"Minor liver lesions (grade I, no grade II or III; pathology not indicative of toxicity) have been noted in SOD1 G93A transgenic mice (a research model for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, but used in this study to assess a state of chronic pro-oxidative stress) for 159 days with 2% of feed intake and in CD-1 rats (seen as normal) over 56 days with 0.025-0.5mg/kg in CD-1 mice, although in Sprague-Dawley rats (also seen as normal) there were no significant differences noted even after 2% of feed intake for 365 days. These observations were reported to be species-specific in rats, and despite no renal pathology noted in any of these three tested strains a previous report in hypertensive Han:SPRD rats noted renal pathology. The doses used in this study were within human consumption rages (8g of creatine per 2000kcal mixed diet assuming a 70kg person) but currently no reports exist of hepatoxicity in humans."
A HELL of a lot heavier than I'll weigh some unsubstantiated, unsourced "I heard it's bad for your liver" claim on a forum. That's just me though.
Ooh, the liver thing certainly gives me some thought. I guess I would have to check that I am drinking enough water to minimize the risk before I would take that step.
Fitness Minutes: (12,713)
4,110 7/17/13 8:17 A
Been using it for quite some time. I haven't noticed any "wow, damn, this sh1t is great!" type response, but a shot of it about an hour before a workout seems to be helpful (even though timing is supposedly irrelevant). Admittedly, I eat a ton of meat so it may not have the same positives on me that it would on someone who doesn't eat a lot of meat.
I thought about it but apparently it is really hard on your liver. It works but you pay a price for it. I got a chance to go to the place in the hospital where they treat the people whose livers are really in trouble and it made me want to pay more attention to maintaining a healthy liver.
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