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SPARKETTE-CJ Posts: 1,503
8/12/13 9:33 A

Very well said JWOOLMAN. Your Jane Goodall analogy is an excellent alternative action to the common self hatred one typically resorts to,which in turn creates the vicious cycle of emotional eating. I wish I had read your post last night as I once again did resort to the emotional eating due to severe depression, and had I thought about it your way, I may have taken that step back to jump out of my body to just observe my reactions to my own emotional state looking at them as knowledge rather than defeat. Lucky enough, I didn't overdo it as I normally or should I say abnormally do! So I know I am improving after years of eating without thinking! I can't believe this late in my life I am finally starting to think and not just do LOL! It's a struggle to alter one's behavior often times, but it's an interesting challenge as well. I'm not using the excuse I have so often in the past of throwing in the towel...I did this my whole was nothing but a mere excuse to indulge in all the bad habits I found comfortable my entire life. I used the excuse "oh well I blew it now so might as well enjoy and eat whatever, however, and whenever I want" no no, cop out. NOW when I see the scale fluctuate a few lbs here and there, I know it's normal and not a reason to give up. I am taking the Jane Goodall approach and never really realized so much again emoticon

JWOOLMAN SparkPoints: (2,406)
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8/12/13 2:11 A

Sparkette- I personally consider it a victory if I eat less in a splurge than I used to do... :) Just keep on doing whatever you've been doing that seems to work, and consider any deviations from your plan as simply a useful observation about what causes the deviations and how you might handle them differently in future, and what you might change to lessen the need for undesirable deviations. You're Jane Goodall, observing yourself in the wild. So your behavior even when off-plan is interesting and enlightening, not a cause for disappointment. You don't have to be perfect. You're trying to adjust your eating habits, and it's okay to go slow with the changes. It will take as long as it takes... Good luck!

SPARKETTE-CJ Posts: 1,503
8/11/13 11:09 P

JWOOLMAN...thank you for your input to my response. I'm sure you're right about not all vegans being thin...but just from my own experience, the people I know of that are vegans are also thin...yet healthy. BUT I am sure you are right, and even though I have cut back dramatically on the meat and dairy intake, I still don't think I could completely give it up...but I am trying. I've always struggled with being strict, and prefer to try to be sensible about my food intake altogether. It's a huge struggle for me when I am depressed, bored, or anxious. And tonight was no exception..though I still haven't "pigged" out as much as I used to during those emotions, so I do see an improvement somewhat...the question is, how long will this last..and is just a fluke? I feel MORE determined than ever...except when my mood is down. I appreciate your response to my comments, as I value all opinions. THANK you!!!

JWOOLMAN SparkPoints: (2,406)
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8/11/13 9:29 P

Sparkette -I can guarantee from personal experience over several decades that vegetarians are NOT always thin... :) If you eat more than your body needs, you gain weight even on a vegan eating plan. And an amazing amount of junk food is vegan! Or nearly so, for those who hang looser about gelatin and honey. But this guy's approach is unlikely to make you fat or keep you fat. It's pretty well designed to get your appetite in line with nutritional needs, so many people report cravings for junk seem to vanish. Definitely his books are worth a read for ideas about how to adjust your current diet, even if you don't follow his program lock-step. He includes huge lists of references from legitimate sources, so he's been careful to back up his claims in addition to his personal experience with patients.

JWOOLMAN SparkPoints: (2,406)
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8/11/13 9:09 P

I think the most restrictive part of his plan is just for six weeks, but it really does have plenty of protein and won't hurt you if you pay attention to his advice to adjust the amounts according to your own needs. If you do it right, you shouldn't be hungry. The initial six weeks is really for people with a great need to drop some weight fast for medical reasons. You can get good results by just incorporating some of his ideas as well - just pushing on non-starchy veggies and fruit is likely to make a huge difference in how you feel, and then your body will do better in normalizing your weight without fuss. Those micronutrients in fruits and veggies make the difference, along with their fiber. Getting good fats from nuts and seeds (including flaxseed) is likely to help a lot also.

8/7/13 10:56 A


also 3 steps to incredible health

8/7/13 10:26 A

I don't really have the time to do the research for you.... off to work.... but I am also trying to increase the raw amounts daily and therefore my enzyme supply

8/7/13 10:22 A

I am a great fan of Dr. Furhman and I don't think he ever has sufficient time on Dr. Oz to explain things well. I have watched the two PBS specials each about an hour and a half or 2 hours long. I try to follow what he says every day.. right now I am not able to do so well since working long hours with no days off for nearly 8 weeks now. What he says GBOMBS in his first program... is greens berries onions mushrooms, beans and seeds... do some research... he makes more sense than anyone...and it fits well with the SP program it is a lifestyle. I have only lost 30 pounds in a year but I don't weigh a huge amount and at the moment I am maintaining until work calms down a bit.

SPARKETTE-CJ Posts: 1,503
8/7/13 8:19 A

p.s. I do NOT like to cook and have not used any of ETL's recipes. I mostly have been eating huge salads with a veggies, nuts, fruit and I do add croutons. Also, I've been grilling veggie kabobs, marinated..awesome..veggie wraps in wheat tortillas, meatless pastas, soups, and salads with a little grilled chicken I guess I am not ENTIRELY following ETL...modified version basically. I also have started drinking more water, the new sparkling flavored ones as I NEVER cared to drink water...anyway..I am not strictly doing the ETL I suppose, but close and it is WORKING for me so far!!! Good luck to all :)

SPARKETTE-CJ Posts: 1,503
8/7/13 8:09 A

I am so excited about this...I've never been able to lose weight and keep it off and this is the first time for both. I am down about 14lbs in a little more than a month! I read half the book so far but haven't had meat for a month. I was a huge meat eater and NEVER cared for fruits & veggies...but am eating more of both now...I still have had some dairy and some eggs but not half as much as I used to. I NEVER believed in a weigh loss program before this...I NOW know without a doubt I CAN lose weight.I have a long way to go yet and praying it's not a fluke or I don't plateau. BUT I am highly motivated because I weigh myself daily, and keep seeing the number go down...It is THRILLING for me!!! This is why VEGANS/VEGETARIANS are always thin...that I know of anyway. I will probably have some meat once in a while, I grew up a big meat eater. BUT will keep trying NOT to. OH AND my HUSBAND, a HUGE meat eater is doing it tooooooo!!!! Well he is having some health issues so his reasons were more important than mine..but he TOO is DOWN in his weight...LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!

PINK_NEVAEH22 Posts: 2,276
6/20/13 11:39 A

I could never follow this diet strictly because my husband would not ever do without meat. I already eat wheat, gluten and dairy free, but cutting out meat too??? It seems pretty rough lol I am definitely curious about it, and in all honesty we never ate that much meat back in the day, because we hunted it, not bought the over abundances of it in the grocery store. Not to mention that it's full of antibiotics, hormones, and steroids. There is just too much crap in our food these days, it's unfair that we have to go out of our way to be healthy, and eat healthy, it should be opposite, where we have to go out of our way to eat unhealthy.

ZOIKES29 SparkPoints: (83)
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6/18/13 2:00 A

I have been following Dr. Fuhrman's ETL plan for around 6 months. The transition for me was not too hard since I was coming from Dr. Graham's 80/10/10 raw vegan diet. Raw was too restricting too me, so I felt a freedom coming to the ETL diet. However, when I first transitioned to whole foods vegan a year ago the transition was tough. One thing I have learned in my time as a meat lover and as a veg lover, is that meat/animal product (especially cheese, it's the worst) is heavy and almost like a drug, it made me lethargic, lazy, (seriously it is a drug), and spacy. Veggies do not give me that chemical fix that animal products do. I had to relearn what true hunger really was. I found that most of the times when I was "hungry" it was from boredom or from the lack of heaviness. It took me a while to distinguish emotional need from actual need for food. Anywhoo, I love my the ETL plan and can't imagine eating any other way now. Perseverance is really key. Just take it in small baby steps and before you know it you will be a whole foods vegan.

In fact, I'm prepping for pregnancy now and intending to follow the ETL diet all the way through, plus I got my blood work results back & they are better than ever before, so my doctor and myself are very confident and comfortable with my current diet.

I emoticon Kale! :D

Edited by: ZOIKES29 at: 6/18/2013 (02:06)
CSINICOLE18 SparkPoints: (0)
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6/14/13 10:40 A

Those of you who are trying ETL, how are you doing?!

I've read the book...and I've tried it. I made it to day 3. I was so hungry and so unsatisfied. Did I learn something from the book? Absolutely. But I also learned that the ETL plan is incredibly difficult for me to maintain and stay motivated with. I'm also not much of a cook, so many of the recipes were a bit too cumbersome for me. I know people say if you can push through that first week, you'll be fine...but I seriously hated life for those 3 days. I like salad, but not that much.

2/17/13 11:00 A


Edited by: MAKINGACHANGE11 at: 2/17/2013 (11:02)
SEAWORLD4 SparkPoints: (1,042)
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1/27/13 11:30 A

I and two other girls are going to give the diet a try for a week. Seems like nothing else is really working us and this might give us a jump start. We all love beans and greens. It does take a little time to put everything together. I will try to make little bags of greens that I can just pull out and eat....Wish us luck and I will let you know what happens...We will start on Monday...January 28, 2013.

ETHELMERZ Posts: 19,218
1/19/13 9:11 P

Of course, "Dr. Furman" makes no money from books or other "plans", right? His info is no different than any other info that has been out for years, there are new suckers born every season. If people were able to eat these ways and STAY eating that way, it would be nice, but it's not realistic, you don't stay satisfied, so you quit................yet these dudes make money hand over fist. Snake oil salesmen.

ALORTA SparkPoints: (7,363)
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1/19/13 8:54 P

from the original post (as no, I've not read the book...) I'd be worried about the low protein content... that with the bar on exercise sounds like you're losing muscle mass vs actual fat.

ILAH17 Posts: 12
1/19/13 8:23 P

I am reading Eat to Live right now. I hate that it seems like common sense, and yet I'm not sure I can actually commit to it :( I am going to finish the book and then decide. Regardless, I plan to start eating a lot more fruits and vegetables.

SZTUTO SparkPoints: (20)
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12/2/12 4:27 A

I also started Dr. Fuhrman's diet, not to lose weight though, but to have a healthier life. I have to admit that the beginning was difficult, had some of the symptoms that he relates to food addiction... Now I feel much better and sports have also become important in my life. I am trying to be as active as possible.

For those who read his books or are interested in a healthier lifestyle, I highly recommend an online course that he produced this year (specially if you are not much into reading). It is 5 sessions of approximately 30 minutes each and you can post questions that he, his team or other users can answer directly. Hope it is useful!

CTUPTON Posts: 15,050
10/7/12 4:05 P

I am liking Dr. Fuhrman's Eat for Health Plan. I am kind of stuck and can't seem to get to the final stage , which is very strict. But I have lost 15 lbs. Nothing else has worked for me in many years. I am loving putting the focus on vegetables. It took me weeks to get the correct foods into the house. Now I have the nuts, seeds, tofu, produce, greens, etc. here. I found a store selling only flavored vinegars and flavored olive oils. Having that variety has helped perk up my meals. Learning to roast vegetables has been a godsend. And now that it is fall, I am making vegetable based soups, many of which are very hearty. I love green smoothies and those help me get in at least 3 cups of greens a day. I was literally hooked on cheese and I just bought veggie based cheeses to wean myself off dairy. I already switched to almond milk.

In the beginning i had a great deal of gas and gastric problems. It went on for weeks. Eventually I found out it was the statin drug I took for lowering cholesterol! I also had tremendous leg pain. The problems went away when I stopped simvistatin! I did not stop the eating plan because it took away my cravings! All my life I had felt the desire to eat. this went on all day, every day. Eating all the vegetables did something. I do not crave the breads, cookies, etc. like before. Now if I get hungry, I eat something, and then I feel satisfied. For me this is a miracle. Even though I was sick for a month , I kept eating the vegetables! I did not want the cravings to come back! Chris

BERRY4 SparkPoints: (261,165)
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8/8/12 11:26 P

"ditto" to several of the positive responses!

No, I don't follow it perfectly, but it has made a difference! I am within 5 #'s of goal weight and the whole nutritarian approach makes overall good sense. -- As I explained it to dh, it isn't that I'm forcing the family off meat and dairy, but rather would like us to move towards significantly MORE fruits & veggies for the health benefits.

Also, "Eat to Live" has made a significant improvement in my hormone variations. Instead of the week from %$#&, TOM shows up and I hardly know it. It has been a wonderful change!

ALOHAJUNE SparkPoints: (3,249)
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8/8/12 12:13 P

I have continued with this approach to eating and my weight is staying about the same. With the Dr. F. eating plan, I was able to shed the final 10-15 lbs that were just hanging on for dear life. I feel so much better these days and my cravings for sugars and anything "white" have subsided. Also, I am learning to really taste what I am putting into my mouth, rather than just eating as fast as I did and not really enjoying the tastes.

I am at my goal weight, and now am shooting for 115. Not sure if that is possible as my weight has stabilized and seems to pretty much stay at, or around 121.

Initially the plan was difficult to follow and may not be for everyone. I have the advantage of being single and with that, not needing to prepare for others who may have different food preferences.

I am a believer in Dr. F. and have found success after 2 months on the plan.

Aloha everyone!

June emoticon

CUSH1932 SparkPoints: (81,720)
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8/8/12 5:28 A

I lost about 20 lbs following the eat to live for about a month. I did not follow it to the T. I had some slip ups but after reading the book and getting this kind of a a result I am convinced it is the way to go. I have never been a heavy meat person and i feel soooooo much better. My goal is to be medicine free....

ALOHAJUNE SparkPoints: (3,249)
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7/13/12 8:47 P

I have also read those books and agree it is a slower approach to this eating plan, and probably much easier. I jumped right into the 6 week plan and it's worked for me. I am thrilled with my reduced craving for refined carbs. I had lunch with friends today and had a great salad with my homemade dressing. The green papaya salad at the restaurant was calling my name, and I did order it. Just drained the sauce which has sugar and added it to my green salad and it filled me up and was satisfying. I enjoy Thai and Vietnamese food and the salad combo filled the bill.

7/13/12 4:25 P

If anyone finds his 6 week Eat To Live plan to be too extreme they might prefer his newer 2 book set titled Eat For Health. It's more of a "stepped" approach. Babystepping your way to a healthier lifestyle...and you can stop at whatever level you find suits your needs/goals.

ALOHAJUNE SparkPoints: (3,249)
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7/13/12 1:41 P

Aloha Everyone:

I too saw the Dr. Oz show and the '7 day healthy crash diet'. Of course, THAT is what got my attention and I got the book and began the 6 week diet as outlined in the book. Initially it was difficult, but as time went by, I realized that my cravings for refined carbs decreased significantly. I am totally addicted to these types of carbs and eliminating them from my eating plan was the most significant step I've taken. I have followed Weight Watchers for years, and have lost and regained (not a fault WW eating plan, but 100% my fault for going off and on it). I use this site to track my food, nutrition and to keep in my mind the need to keep proper balance, adequate calories and all that good stuff. I had been stuck at a weight for such a long time, and now in my 5th week of the Dr. Furman plan, I am below my original goal weight. That last 10 lbs just would not come off and now it has. I am shooting to lose a bit more before I switch to the Dr. Furman maintenance plan, but one thing - since I've gotten the bad carbs out of my system and those cravings are not as intense, I do not plan on reintroducing them back to my diet. I have been sugar free, dessert free and what I refer to as "no white" for close to 6 weeks now - and that seemed to be the turning point for me.

The Dr. Furman plan is not for everyone, but it did help me stop my carb habits, I feel great and believe I am developing a healthy plan of eating and exercise.

The book is worth checking out at least and even beginning at the maintenance stage may help those who don't feel they can make some of the more drastic changes to their food plans.

Just some thoughts.

emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon

AKBRATT94 SparkPoints: (0)
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7/13/12 9:01 A

Eat To Live is a wonderful plan and I love the book. His website also has many researched and well documented scientific studies. He is a M.D. and does not call himeself a Vegan but a Nutritarian. He lives for health not for calories.
I have lost weight and feel wonderful because of his research and work.
Please don't knock him until you have read his book and seen what he does.

6/14/12 3:45 P

I've found the "no snacking" thing to not be as difficult in practice as it seems in theory. My meals are so darn filling that I don't usually have a reason to snack between meals. I just don't normally get hungry between meals.

That said, if I do find myself hungry, truly hungry, I have a snack. And I am human. If I'm cutting fruit to make a fruit salad and it's not meal time I still tend to nibble. :) I just don't make a habit of including planned snacks in my day. I plan to not have a need for them but if I do need one I have one.

LOVEMYLIFE1 Posts: 100
6/14/12 12:25 P

First, I have not tried it but have been researching it for after my vacation (an active one in which I will eat what I want (not a big sweet person)). Second, he has some good videos on youtube if you are going to do his plan. The crash diet segment is to get you revved up about losing weight and the lifestyle of eating healty. He also has a maintanence part in his book. He says he doesn't encourage exercise the first week because a diet is a big change and once you see pounds coming off you will "want" to exercise not because you "have" to exercise. I think he has some very good points and I also am planning on trying tofu (tasted it at my local chinese buffet and it wasn't too bad) and especially like the add legumes to a salad ideal. I don't like that he encourages no snacking. I plan on making greek yogurt dip and hummus and eat it with raw veggies as I know if I crave something to snack on and "can't" have it, I will fall off the plan. I think this is a good introduction to a healthy way of eating.

6/13/12 1:48 P

I followed the Eat to Live plan pretty closely for 3 days and lost 5 pounds.
I had gotten out of my exercise routine for a few weeks, but on Day 4 I was lacing up my running shoes!
The Eat to Live Plan says:
• dairy products
• animal products
• between meal snacks
• fruit juice, dried fruits
• salt, sugar

I eliminated animal products and bread, but will admit to a glass of wine.

The recipes were great, it was fun experimenting with vegetables again, and my dh didn't realize that I eliminated animal products from our meals until I told him on Day 4.

Overall it gave me a kick start that I needed and I am inspired to go back to mostly-veggie meals.

GRANDMABABA SparkPoints: (304,636)
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6/13/12 12:22 P

I so appreciate all the comments here. I think the crash diet label was to get attention. A week to sort of jump start is a good idea. I've nearly finished that and have so enjoyed it. I've not been perfect, but pretty close to recommendations. My body seems to finally be working better in the digestion department. I haven't stopped exercising during this week. But, I've not been so concerned about the amount. With more energy I have actually gotten as much or even more exercise than before. My biggest struggle is with eating with others and keeping my dh happy. I save my meats and fats for our dinner and enjoy it with him. Dr. Fuhrman makes a lot of sense and his recommendations fit well with the sp plan. I'll be interested to see what the scale says. Since I'd already been eating pretty clean I know there won't be much, if any, water weight to lose. Have a great day everyone!

6/13/12 12:17 P

OP - Don't forget to check out some other ways of preparing your food. Head to the library and get some vegetarian and vegan cookbooks, for new meal ideas.

Also, if you have Netflixs, watch the movie "forks over knives" as well as "engine 2 diet".
They are good movies on how eating a plant based whole foods diet can do amazing things for your health.

I don't follow this eating plan myself, I like my cheese, butter and olive oil too much and I still eat meat/eggs 2-3 times a week, but getting more whole food meals into my diet is also something I think everyone can ascribe too.


6/13/12 12:07 P

I don't have any experience with Dr Fuhrman directly, but he's not the first one to say "eat mainly whole foods".
That he called his eating plan a "crash diet" on Dr Oz, really doesn't have anything to do with his actual eating plan. And I assume that for most that watch Dr Oz, changing to this eating plan would be a crash diet for them, but it would be the healthiest "crash diet" ever to undertake.

From his book:
Fuhrman's "secret" to optimum health and permanent weight control is giving the body only what it needs. An aggressive six-week vegetarian plan segues into a regimen that includes a limited amount of animal products, like lean fish or egg whites once a week. Lose 20 pounds or more in six weeks.

Also, he's not that removed from the below eating plans:
Plates over forks/ engine 2 diet / whole food eating - no oils, meat or dairy and limited processed foods (pasta, etc) (more extreme than going vegan)

Vegan - would allow some oils, but not meat or dairy - would also allow "fake" (soy or oil based) cheeses, and more processed foods like frozen processed soy products, etc.

Vegetarian - no meat - but can eat anything else

I doubt the claims of 10 pounds in a week, unless the person had a seriously bad diet previously, but there isn't anything dangerous about eating 90% whole foods.


Edited by: RCKYMTNWMN at: 6/13/2012 (12:21)
6/12/12 4:31 P

Please don't judge this based on soundbites and buzzwords. Take a moment to look at what is being recommended before discounting it as silly or even dangerous.

Yes, depending on what you currently weigh if you go from eating the standard American diet to a diet of fruit/vegetables/whole grains/legumes/nuts/seeds you can absolutely experience a good amount of weight loss. It's no different than if you're following the SP plan. People do generally have an impressive first week when they stop eating junk. I lost 13lbs after my first week of following a healthier way of eating.

They wanted people to try it for a give whole foods a try for seven days. And then perhaps they might be inspired to pick up one of Dr. Fuhrman's books and continue for life.

It IS healthy. It IS supported by peer reviewed scientific studies.

Edited by: DANNIELLEMARIE at: 6/12/2012 (16:34)
DRAGONCHILDE SparkPoints: (61,258)
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6/12/12 4:15 P

If it's something Dr. Oz is hawking as his weight-loss trick of the day, skip it. It's probably not healthy, and isn't guaranteed to be supported by any kind of real evidence. He has not proven to be a trustworthy source of weight loss advice.

LOVE4KITTIES Posts: 4,690
6/12/12 3:47 P

"He says you can lose up to 10 lbs in a week." Sounds like a crash diet to me.

6/12/12 3:40 P

I hear ya. It really bothered me that they put that spin on things to get the attention of people looking for a quick fix. But as for SP's view of not supporting "crash diets" I really don't think this applies. That was my point. It's really not necessary to scare people away from eating a whole food, plant based diet just because the Dr's said "if you're looking for a crash diet we'd like you to try this".

AILEBBELIA SparkPoints: (13,418)
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6/12/12 3:22 P

I did not place a label on Dr. Furman's plan.

Dr. Furman stood right next to Dr. Oz and allowed him to call it a crash diet.

6/12/12 2:57 P

Ailebbelia, it's NOT a crash diet. Dr. Oz called it that to appeal to people looking for a crash diet...he wanted to show that it is possible to lose weight at a decent rate in a healthy way (healthier than a real crash diet).

6/12/12 2:55 P

Yes, though the 'crash diet' spin they put on this way of life on the Dr Oz show infuriates me. It's not a crash diet at all. They merely called it that to get the attention of those looking for a crash diet to get them to try eating real food.

I highly suggest reading some of Dr Fuhrman's books.

Eat To Live
Eat For Health
Super Immunity

They're life changing. :)

Since adopting this lifestyle I no longer have to track my food or count calories (I stopped when I lost weight beyond my goal weight, an extra 20lbs!, without any extra effort) and haven't since this past November. I've been able to maintain my weight loss easily.

RIET69 SparkPoints: (47,087)
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6/12/12 1:40 P

No I have not and most likely will not. I don't even consider myself "on a diet" because I am in the process of changing my eating and drinking to a more mindful and healthy way of living.

AILEBBELIA SparkPoints: (13,418)
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6/12/12 12:41 P

It's a Dr Oz approved 7 day crash diet that discourages exercise for the week. That's why there have been several posts on the subject these past couple of days.

MBSHAZZER Posts: 18,605
6/12/12 12:12 P

That doesn't sound like a crash diet unless you are eating significantly fewer calories than recommended.

SOLOVUS Posts: 139
6/12/12 12:01 P

Since when is a diet based around mostly fruits and veggies considered a crash diet?

You probably won't lose 10 pounds in a week on ANY diet unless you have a lot of excess water weight or you have a few hundred pounds to lose. When your diet focuses on optimum nutrition (as Fuhrman's does) the weight loss should be a natural side effect.

MLAN613 Posts: 18,432
6/12/12 11:36 A

No, I haven't and I doubt I will. I believe in lifestyles with a balanced nutrition approach. I didn't gain my weight overnight and won't lose it that way, either.

AILEBBELIA SparkPoints: (13,418)
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6/12/12 11:00 A

This goal of this site is to help people make lifestyle changes so you probably won't get too much support on how to better succeed doing a crash diet.

GRANDMABABA SparkPoints: (304,636)
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6/12/12 10:44 A

I've been trying the Dr. Furman crash diet approach for the past 5 days. It directs us to eat 90% fruits, veggies and whole grains with 10% fats, meat, dairy, and sweets. I love the produce, but some days I can't quite hit those percentages or when I do that I have a struggle getting enough calories. Still, it has nudged me off the plateau. He says you can lose up to 10 pounds in a week. I've not, but I have lost a little which has got me feeling encouraged once again. Has anyone else had experience with this?

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